Jeremy Roenick, Shea Weber and Pavel Datsyuk inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame

[CuuuJooo]

While those 2 are both better than Weber, Norris count isn't a great barometer. Guys like Subban and Giordano have a Norris while a lot of guys in their era who were multiple tiers better don't have one. Like most awards, they come with a lot of politics and chance.

Remember the great debate over who won the Weber-Subban trade?

 

[ClydeLee]

Elias was a better hockey player than JR, had international success and won two Stanley Cups. Weber got in because he was Canadian and played for Montreal.


Agreed, europeans and defensive impact are discredited unless you play in Canada.

If you think Weber only got in because of the politics & playing in Montréal, then you must think the politics affected his Norris Voting where he absolutely would of won 2 Norris trophies if his prime was in Montréal vs lowly Nashville with his 2 losses by 9/12 votes. If he was a 2 time Norris winner, which by the closest of margins of any player probably, he wasn't, would that not be a sure hofer?

Disagree with the JR, and Elias. I never got the hof vibes of Elias in his play. And JR was and still Is a huge icon for his play to genX chicaho fans. He should of been in ages ago, most 500 goal scorers would be.

There's back to back Datsyuk posts here. Guys, this was his first year eligible. It's funny how many comments I see don't get that. So many, how can Weber get in, his contracts active... it's just about if you played professional for 3 years. Datsyuk left the NHL but he was still playing in the KHL until 2021. Like... we all know Jagr isn't in the hall yet right? It's because he keeps playing for his Czechia club. Every season he plays, he sets back the waiting period 3 years.

 

[wetcoast]

Seems like it; he's overlooked every year and no one can figure out why.

I think most people know why as his career just isn't the strongest and somewhat inconsistent.

Shea Weber being a first ballot Hall of Famer just doesn't seem right to me.

That's because the first ballot thing is a baseball phrase and much like the deadly era in baseball it doesn't translate when people use a phrase like " the dead puck era"?

It's literally not a thing and even the baseball first ballot thing is kind of ridiculous.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

If you think Weber only got in because of the politics & playing in Montréal, then you must think the politics affected his Norris Voting where he absolutely would of won 2 Norris trophies if his prime was in Montréal vs lowly Nashville with his 2 losses by 9/12 votes. If he was a 2 time Norris winner, which by the closest of margins of any player probably, he wasn't, would that not be a sure hofer?

Disagree with the JR, and Elias. I never got the hof vibes of Elias in his play. And JR was and still Is a huge icon for his play to genX chicaho fans. He should of been in ages ago, most 500 goal scorers would be.

There's back to back Datsyuk posts here. Guys, this was his first year eligible. It's funny how many comments I see don't get that. So many, how can Weber get in, his contracts active... it's just about if you played professional for 3 years. Datsyuk left the NHL but he was still playing in the KHL until 2021. Like... we all know Jagr isn't in the hall yet right? It's because he keeps playing for his Czechia club. Every season he plays, he sets back the waiting period 3 years.

Hilarious that you think the induction into the HHOF should be based on awards and vibes, both of which are heavily influenced by the market you plan in and their media. Elias was a better overall player than JR and has won both in the NHL and at the international level while JR was destroying hotels.

 

[ClydeLee]

Hilarious that you think the induction into the HHOF should be based on awards and vibes. Says all you need to, considering where one plays controls the media and vibes surrounding players.

You said it Is because of that dude... I didn't say it should be. What is and should aren't the same.

 

[Machinehead]

That's because the first ballot thing is a baseball phrase and much like the deadly era in baseball it doesn't translate when people use a phrase like " the dead puck era"?

It's literally not a thing and even the baseball first ballot thing is kind of ridiculous.

Yeah, I get that, but the NHL has an arbitrary limit on inductions per year (they shouldn't, but here we are). There are guys with better careers who have been waiting.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

He also has:

2010 Olympic gold medal
2014 Olympic gold medal
2005 WJC gold medal
2011 World Championship gold medal
2016 World Cup gold medal
2004 Memorial Cup
7x All-Star
5x top 5 Norris finishes
Over 1,000 games played

I think that's what gets him is his international career.

2010 and 2014 golds. We will see some players get in who were part of both.

It's the Hockey hall of fame not the NHL hall of fame.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah, I get that, but the NHL has an arbitrary limit on inductions per year (they shouldn't, but here we are). There are guys with better careers who have been waiting.

Everyone knew that Weber was going to be a lock even if there are others with close credentials.

He is one of those "his reputation made him viewed better than he was " type of players and I say this as someone who agrees with his induction.

 

[Dr Pepper]

I think most people know why as his career just isn't the strongest and somewhat inconsistent.

Pavel Datsyuk:
14 seasons, 953 games, 314 goals, 604 assists, 918 points
Single-season highs: 32 goals, 97 points

Alexander Mogilny:
17 seasons, 990 games, 473 goals, 559 assists, 1,032 points
Single-season highs: 76 goals, 127 points

It could certainly be argued that Mogilny was more injury prone, which would explain some lacklustre seasons down the stretch, but overall I feel like his career is just as deserving of a HHOF nod. And that's not even a slight against Datsyuk who is not at all out of place as a HHOF inductee.

When you factor in the Soviet aspect and the hurdles Mogilny faced early on, it just makes his omission all the more puzzling to me.

 

[The Hockey Tonk Man]

Arizona Coyotes legends

 

[wetcoast]

I think that's what gets him is his international career.

2010 and 2014 golds. We will see some players get in who were part of both.

It's the Hockey hall of fame not the NHL hall of fame.

Weber also played very well at the Olympics.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Why is Weber eligible before his contract is up?

They inducted Pronger when he was still under contract with Arizona so apparently that’s not actually an eligibility criteria unless they want it to be. Weird that they felt like they just couldn’t wait to put Weber in, though. No significant hardware in his trophy case (I mean, a Messier award, but lol) to speak of.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

You said it Is because of that dude... I didn't say it should be. What is and should aren't the same.

Weber didn't have a season where he deserved the Norris

 

[Look Up]

Arizona Coyotes legends

Winnipeg Jets legends as well!

 

[Machinehead]

Everyone knew that Weber was going to be a lock even if there are others with close credentials.

He is one of those "his reputation made him viewed better than he was " type of players and I say this as someone who agrees with his induction.

If you put it that way, I don't know if we entirely disagree. I guess that's fair.

 

[Moose Head]

No problem withWeber getting in, but the criteria should really change to 3 years after official, papers in, retirement. Weird that Weber and maybe Price next year could be in before Jagr.

 

[Moose Head]

….and if Roenick is in, I’m starting a get Bobby Smith and Vinny Damphousse in movement. The hall needs more Very Good players

 

[splot]

Pavel Datsyuk:
14 seasons, 953 games, 314 goals, 604 assists, 918 points
Single-season highs: 32 goals, 97 points

Alexander Mogilny:
17 seasons, 990 games, 473 goals, 559 assists, 1,032 points
Single-season highs: 76 goals, 127 points

It could certainly be argued that Mogilny was more injury prone, which would explain some lacklustre seasons down the stretch, but overall I feel like his career is just as deserving of a HHOF nod. And that's not even a slight against Datsyuk who is not at all out of place as a HHOF inductee.

When you factor in the Soviet aspect and the hurdles Mogilny faced early on, it just makes his omission all the more puzzling to me.

127 pts in 92-93 and 97 pts in the middle of the dead-puck era isn't all that different. Datsyuk placed 4th in points in both his 97 pt seasons and was ~15% behind the leader, Mogilny was 6th and 26% behind. While Mogilny was a far better goalscorer Datsyuk get a pretty sizable edge from his multiple selke trophies.

I wouldn't mind Mogilny in the hall, but I don't think its as close as you make it out.

 

[eXile3]

People arguing Weber but Roenick won nothing. I don’t even think he had any top 5 finishes in scoring?

The standard for the hockey hall a fame isn’t that high.

 

[McShogun99]

For some reason I thought that Datsyuk has been in the Hall for years.

 

[Soundgarden]

Weber didn't have a season where he deserved the Norris

Uh 13-14?

Question for people against Weber making it, how many of you guys watched Nashville play?
I mean really watched them play, I'm talking when NBC was joiking it to Johnny Toews and Siddy the kiddy how many of you guys actually sat down and turned on a Preds game where we didn't have a player hit 25 goals and the only player to hit 55 points was Weber?

 

[abo9]

There's a big difference between someone who repeatedly comes close to winning a trophy, and someone who was never close at all (ie Kevin Lowe, Leo Boivin). There are plenty of great defensemen who never won a Norris but at least came close on multiple occasions (Brad Park, Borje Salming, Scott Stevens, Tim Horton, etc). There's plenty of precedent for Weber being inducted.

The simplest argument? Weber placed in the top five for the Norris trophy 5 times in his career. 24 other defensemen in NHL history have done that. Every single one that's eligible is in the Hall of Fame. (The only "exceptions" are Erik Karlsson and Victor Hedman, who are still active, and who will obviously be inducted in the future).

From 2009 to 2017 (a span of nine seasons), Weber finished 3rd in the NHL in votes for the Norris trophy (normalized so each year is worth the same number of votes) - behind Karlsson and Chara, but ahead of some big names like Doughty and Keith. During his peak (2011 to 2015 - five season), even though he didn't win the Norris, he was easily the leader in votes during that period (ahead of Chara, Karlsson, Subban and Keith).

Multiple things, but I think thosep lay a big role in the perception of Weber's career today:

1. Recensy bias: Offense is high, more than 1 defensemen breaking pts per game this year, something that was considering almost a HHOF guarantee if done during Weber's peak years. His pts totals don't look that impressive in the context of today's offense, but he was consistently top 10-20 in D scoring.

2. His biggest asset was defense. Nothing else to day, defense is difficult to judge retroactively.

3. He played for Nashville during his prime/peak, who were a heavy defense-first team during his tenure there. Little flash, little media spotlight.

4. He then joined Montreal... who were not super competitive either. I think, if by miracle, they got that Cup, the narrative changes drastically. But they didn't, and not being a lifer on Nashville might actually have hurt his legacy amongst fans? As odd as it sounds

I know it's just math and not perfect metrics, but if you look at Hockey-reference's career similarity scores, his closest comparables include guys like Chara, Doughty, Niedermayer, Chelios, Pronger, all HHOF or to-be HHOF members

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/w/webersh01.html

 

[Sdevils42]

Devils fan, always thought the Elias HoF talk was a bit overblown. Loved the guy, top 5 player in franchise history probably but... never cracked 100 pts, never won a major award, 1000+ points but not a PPG player. Hall of Very Good imo.

Mogilny is still the biggest running snub imo. He must've done something hockey politics-wise to keep getting left off. Top 10 player in the 90s, I just don't get it.

 

[BLNY]

I like that Shea will be inducted before his contract expires.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Weber was an average defenseman in Montreal. He got in based on 7-8 good seasons where he literally didn't win anything and didn't lead in any statistical category.