Jeremy Roenick, Shea Weber and Pavel Datsyuk inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame

[DitchMarner]

I think perhaps some are underrating Roenick, at least at his best.

He was a 100+ point player three years in a row. Yes, scoring across the League was high then, but it was also a very competitive period in terms of the scoring race. This was a period where there was a considerable infusion of high-end European talent and there were plenty of very talented North Americans aside from Gretzky and Lemieux. This wasn't a period where guys like Benn were winning the Art Ross.

Roenick had a lot of popularity (for a hockey player) and appeal at that time. He was also a physical, exciting player and wasn't bad defensively.

He fell off after his injury in '95 but wasn't a nobody after that. He was a a legit number one centre for PHO for a few years.

Basically, he was about as good as Tavares, who I think will probably be inducted as well one day. JT has a better Hart record, but I think his high-end Hart finishes overrate him in relation to guys like Roenick.

The HHOF tends to induct guys who are notable players for about three years and who accumulate a lot of goals and points in their careers overall. I'm sure Mogilny will be inducted eventually. They just inducted Turgeon last year; maybe they didn't want to put in another early 1990s Sabre just yet.

 

[um]

Weber was an average defenseman in Montreal. He got in based on 7-8 good seasons where he literally didn't win anything and didn't lead in any statistical category.

Well he did win 2 gold medals, and he was named 4 times to the All-Star team.

Yea he didn't have a dominant 30s in Montreal... basically all players decline in their 30s.

 

[GMR]

Zetterberg should get in as well, he was an absolute horse.

The Sedins getting ahead of him irritates me. He had a higher PPG average and was much more clutch than either Sedin, plus a superior two-way player.

They got inducted together because it was a feelgood story and made for nice TV. Extraneous reasons controlled that selection.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

He was a 100+ point player three years in a row.

I see this as trivia, not a serious argument, but here are the four most recent players to score 100+ points in a season three years in a row:

1. McDavid
2. Draisaitl
3. Ovechkin
4. Roenick

(Yes, scoring was higher then, as you mentioned - but how many people would have guessed that Roenick is on this list, but not Crosby, Jagr, or Sakic?)

 

[OKR]

No issue with any of them getting in, but Weber as a first balot? Plenty of better and more deserving players had to wait for much longer.

 

[triggrman]

Weber was an average defenseman in Montreal. He got in based on 7-8 good seasons where he literally didn't win anything and didn't lead in any statistical category.

He led the league in goals by a defensemen in , 11/12, 13/14 and was runner up or top 5 in multiple times. He's 16th all time in goals from a defenseman, and did that in less than 1100 games.

 

[BLNY]

Does Colin Campbell go into the Jeremy Jacobs wing of the HHoF?

 

[Scotianhab]

Not sure why Colin Campbell is getting elected. There must be better choices out there.

 

[Nicko999]

Bro had no luck trying to say Markov > Weber on the Habs board so he came to the main board lmao

Stop putting words in my mouth never said one was better than the other. Same stats, similar teams (great goalie, D-core, lack of talent up front).

Very similar team performances as well. Weber had Ekholm to play with while Markov had PK in his later stage of his career.

There are a lot of similarities.

Well I liked Markov but Weber has about twice as many goals as Markov in the same number of games, and is 15th all time for goals by a D, and was a top 3 finisher for the Norris 3 times, and in the top 10 Norris 7 times, whereas Markov was only top 10 twice, and was never top 3. Weber was an All-Star pick 4x (Markov 2x).

In 2014, I feel like Weber got screwed out of the Norris because he played for the Predators (bad team that year) while Keith played for an original six team that made the playoffs. Keith won with 61 points and only 6 goals, beating Weber who had 55 points and 23 goals. Keith had a better plus minus ( a lot of that is the team though, since teams that are bad have more goals scored against them and score fewer).

Weber also won the hardest shot 4x, which is impressive when you consider it is the hardest shot in the entire league; only one person has registered a harder shot than his (108.1 mph) since they started measuring it (Chara).

They have different styles so comparing goals is unfair because Markov had an IQ Weber could only dream.
If we compare pts, Markov hit 50 pts 3 times, Weber 3 times as well.
Markov however had a 64 pts season, Weber's best one is 56.
Weber slightly better longevity.

 

[trentmccleary]

I think perhaps some are underrating Roenick, at least at his best.

He was a 100+ point player three years in a row. Yes, scoring across the League was high then, but it was also a very competitive period in terms of the scoring race.

He fell off after his injury in '95 but wasn't a nobody after that. He was a a legit number one centre for PHO for a few years.

Basically, he was about as good as Tavares, who I think will probably be inducted as well one day. JT has a better Hart record, but I think his high-end Hart finishes overrate him in relation to guys like Roenick.

The HHOF tends to induct guys who are notable players for about three years and who accumulate a lot of goals and points in their careers overall.

In Roenick's 3 x 100 point seasons from 1991-92 to 1993-94, he was 9th in points (while playing every single regular season game).
In his 3 seasons with Phoenix from 1998-99 to 2000-01, he was 11th in points (while missing 13 games). Had he played every game, he was on pace to have been 6th in points over those 3 seasons.

 

[cptjeff]

Not sure why Colin Campbell is getting elected. There must be better choices out there.

I'm still not sure why Colin Campbell wasn't banned from the league in disgrace after using his position to try and manipulate officiating for his son's benefit.

 

[Voight]

really don't think weber or roenick are HOF material. and especially not over mogilny

Happy for Roenick but I don't get putting him in over Mogilny.

Some have speculated that the committee thinks he wouldn't show up for the ceremony because he didn't show up for the Buffalo hall of Fame ceremony.

Which is just a really dumb line of thinking. There is a VAST difference between the Buffalo Hall of Fame and the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, which is the highest honour a player can receive.

 

[Voight]

Shea Weber being a first ballot Hall of Famer just doesn't seem right to me.

See below -

I'm surprised that so many people are questioning Weber's induction. It shows the flaw in counting trophies as a binary (yes or no) outcome. Weber was consistently one of the best defensemen in the league for close to a decade.

There's a big difference between someone who repeatedly comes close to winning a trophy, and someone who was never close at all (ie Kevin Lowe, Leo Boivin). There are plenty of great defensemen who never won a Norris but at least came close on multiple occasions (Brad Park, Borje Salming, Scott Stevens, Tim Horton, etc). There's plenty of precedent for Weber being inducted.

The simplest argument? Weber placed in the top five for the Norris trophy 5 times in his career. 24 other defensemen in NHL history have done that. Every single one that's eligible is in the Hall of Fame. (The only "exceptions" are Erik Karlsson and Victor Hedman, who are still active, and who will obviously be inducted in the future).

From 2009 to 2017 (a span of nine seasons), Weber finished 3rd in the NHL in votes for the Norris trophy (normalized so each year is worth the same number of votes) - behind Karlsson and Chara, but ahead of some big names like Doughty and Keith. During his peak (2011 to 2015 - five season), even though he didn't win the Norris, he was easily the leader in votes during that period (ahead of Chara, Karlsson, Subban and Keith).

 

[PaulD]

Big year next year in the Brad Richards, Gary Suter, Eric Stall households

Suck it Mogilny, you wait another year!!!

I take Mogilny over all of them on my team.

 

[PaulD]

Lots of passion for Roenick. Chelios, AndrewRaycroft, Marty Biron , to mention a few that have said for years this JR is over due to be in.
Mogilny should be in too. Without a doubt.

 

[BB79]

Some have speculated that the committee thinks he wouldn't show up for the ceremony because he didn't show up for the Buffalo hall of Fame ceremony.

Which is just a really dumb line of thinking. There is a VAST difference between the Buffalo Hall of Fame and the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, which is the highest honour a player can receive.

Still pretty low to not show for the Sabres hall ceremony. They were the franchise that worked to help him defect from Russia, the least he could do to show that he's greatful to the opportunity they gave him...plus his 76 goal season was there.

https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/unknown-story-of-wny-the-defection-of-alexander-mogilny/71-272900317

I'm glad JR finally got the nod. I get it, he can be polarizing, but I've always liked him

 

[Canad13ns]

Stop putting words in my mouth never said one was better than the other. Same stats, similar teams (great goalie, D-core, lack of talent up front).

Very similar team performances as well. Weber had Ekholm to play with while Markov had PK in his later stage of his career.

There are a lot of similarities.



They have different styles so comparing goals is unfair because Markov had an IQ Weber could only dream.
If we compare pts, Markov hit 50 pts 3 times, Weber 3 times as well.
Markov however had a 64 pts season, Weber's best one is 56.
Weber slightly better longevity.

Agree, Markov was a genius passer and that showed up in his assists. No D we got after him came close to replacing that skill.

 

[wetcoast]

Devils fan, always thought the Elias HoF talk was a bit overblown. Loved the guy, top 5 player in franchise history probably but... never cracked 100 pts, never won a major award, 1000+ points but not a PPG player. Hall of Very Good imo.

Fair enough but he was probably a better player over his career than Mogliny right?

Mogilny is still the biggest running snub imo. He must've done something hockey politics-wise to keep getting left off. Top 10 player in the 90s, I just don't get it.

The joke with Mogliny was that he was a much better player in a contract year than in non contract years and inconsistency along with a meh playoff resume hurts his case.

He also missed vital games here and there in his resume, especially in buffalo where his case suddenly becomes alot better had he stayed healthy.

For example he played in 77 games in 92-93 where he tied Selanne with 76 goals, had he played in those 7 extra games he probably wins the Rocket outright (had it existed) and also scores 80 goals.

The season before he has a line of 67-39-45-84 and after it was 66-32-47-79

Being healthy his numbers just would edge him over that cliff one would think and make a much stronger argument for him.

I always thought that if the Iron Curtain had never gone down the legacy for Mogliny, Bure, Fedorov all would have been greater than it is now as that line was simply so explosive and complete and arguably would have been considered one of the best lines ever in hockey ahd it remained intact.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm surprised that so many people are questioning Weber's induction. It shows the flaw in counting trophies as a binary (yes or no) outcome. Weber was consistently one of the best defensemen in the league for close to a decade.

There's a big difference between someone who repeatedly comes close to winning a trophy, and someone who was never close at all (ie Kevin Lowe, Leo Boivin). There are plenty of great defensemen who never won a Norris but at least came close on multiple occasions (Brad Park, Borje Salming, Scott Stevens, Tim Horton, etc). There's plenty of precedent for Weber being inducted.

The simplest argument? Weber placed in the top five for the Norris trophy 5 times in his career. 24 other defensemen in NHL history have done that. Every single one that's eligible is in the Hall of Fame. (The only "exceptions" are Erik Karlsson and Victor Hedman, who are still active, and who will obviously be inducted in the future).

From 2009 to 2017 (a span of nine seasons), Weber finished 3rd in the NHL in votes for the Norris trophy (normalized so each year is worth the same number of votes) - behind Karlsson and Chara, but ahead of some big names like Doughty and Keith. During his peak (2011 to 2015 - five season), even though he didn't win the Norris, he was easily the leader in votes during that period (ahead of Chara, Karlsson, Subban and Keith).

I think part of the lack of love for Weber may have come from his time in Nashville where many perceived Suter as the better defensive player on that team but Weber getting more love for his slapshot and hitting.

Let's face it both Weber and Roenick played hockey "the right way" to many people on the HHOF committee and that certainly didn't hurt their respective caes and while I agree with both selections sometimes guys who play a different style or are less offensive don't get the recognition that they deserve.

 

[wetcoast]

Gretzky and Lemieux are easily #1 and #2. Yzerman and Fedorov were clearly #3 and 4. The rest are still comfortably above Roenick. And I even forgot Lafontaine.

While I don't totally disagree with your argument, the sentiment at the time was for Jeremy and he did outshine both Red wing centers in the second round h2h matchup in the 92 playoffs.

In 91 Jeremy arguably had a better playoff round than either Red wing and his regular season was up there with Yzerman and viewed more favorably than Fedorov as well.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

Once Sundin was selected first-ballot, the HHOF lost all credibility.

 

[ClydeLee]

Once Sundin was selected first-ballot, the HHOF lost all credibility.

Because they don't have a distinction of first-ballot being special?

That's a silly baseball only thing. Why do fans want that mentality to exist?

 

[Forge]

Devils fan, always thought the Elias HoF talk was a bit overblown. Loved the guy, top 5 player in franchise history probably but... never cracked 100 pts, never won a major award, 1000+ points but not a PPG player. Hall of Very Good imo.

Elias' career production basically ended up the same as Daniel sedin's. He didn't get the award love, and that's why sedin is in right now and Elias is waiting which is totally fine. Sedin's peak is better, no doubt, but given how similar their career production is and the fact that they mostly overlapped for their careers, it'd be super weird to me if one is a first ballot guy and the other is not even a HOFer.

 

[Forge]

Roenick career arc basically makes Elias' arc acceptable for the HOF in terms of lacking hardware and being really good for a long time. May have to wait a while, but elias should get in

 

[RooBicks]

These players all deserve to be in. So does Mogilny. Why doesn't anyone care about Tkachuk? To my mind, he's the biggest outstanding snub outside of Mogilny and he doesn't seem to get any concern... from anywhere. And truth be told, over the course of his career, I think there's a strong case to be made he was more of a consistent concern to opposing teams than Mogilny, despite the PPG difference. Guy was a beast.