Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[silverfish]

Agreed. They would need to ask for something bigger for Stepan. I'd want a top pairing D for him.

Still would rather move Hayes for a RHD with top 4 potential. Protect Lindberg at that point. He's you're 3C next season.

Right. You move Stepan for something like Dumba+ or Manson+, or you don't move Stepan at all.

You don't move Stepan for Galchenyuk just to get younger. All that does is show you're focusing on the wrong pieces, and you're not even using that piece to correct what's actually wrong with this team.

 

[True Blue]

If he can only buyout 1 guy, and does then maybe I buy into the Girardi and Staal are unmovable stuff, but even that is stretching it. AV thinks these guys are still 20 minutes a night in crucial situation defensemen. I sincerely doubt he's the only one and I refuse to believe there is not a deal out there for one, or both of these guys. Even if it does come down to offloading them on a young inexperienced team like Vegas will be, and paying a pick or middle-tier prospect to do it. Get creative and find a way to move them.

Not moving one or both of them is unacceptable.

I think that is living in fantasy land. Just because AV believes something, does not make it reality. Simply saying "Get creative and find a way to move them" is about as valid as saying "Go lift some weights and then press a car over your head".

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Right. You move Stepan for something like Dumba+ or Manson+, or you don't move Stepan at all.

You don't move Stepan for Galchenyuk just to get younger. All that does is show you're focusing on the wrong pieces, and you're not even using that piece to correct what's actually wrong with this team.

Funny, this is exactly what I suggested earlier

 

[xsniper11x]

I don't agree that those players were dealt for 'very little', and the ones that were like Seguin were because of disciplinary problem. Silverberg for Ryan, no steal there. Turris was an under performing prospect traded for another under performing prospect, by an incompetent management in AZ.

You also have to have assets to trade that teams want, also have to get lucky with timing and who's available.

I would love to see a 'list all day' of steals this past decade, I just don't think that exists.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to say we can rob teams blind, but numerous opportunities will arise. Its just about being in a position to capitalize, which i think Gorton is in.

Think Zibby for Brass, very similar to Silfer for Ryan (a trade Ducks fans make 10/10 now). Gorton will need to look for opportunities to reset at certain positions, and add several years to the teams "window."

Step might be the next best candidate for such a move. Everyone needs to be on the table to honestly and openly explore these opportunities.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Except Brassard was 28 about to be 29 when we traded him for a 23 year-old.

This is a 26 going to be 27 year old for a 23 year old.

I also believe that Stepan > Brassard, and Zibanejad > Galchenyuk.

So while, yes, these are comparable deals as it's the older center for the younger center, it's not the right deal.

Okay, but the key question would be 'is Stepan still > Galchenyuk' in a year from now?

 

[silverfish]

Okay, but the key question would be 'is Stepan still > Galchenyuk' in a year from now?

If I could tell you, I would.

All player age-trending models would probably tell you that no, Stepan won't be as good as Galchenyuk is 2 or 3 years down the line. But, this is assuming they follow an expected path. Galchenyuk just had a very down year. A lot of it was due to coaching, but it was a down year. Am I ready to sacrifice Stepan and say that Galchy only had a bad year because Montreal + coaching decisions? No way.

 

[Inferno]

I want Matt duchene and trouba on this team...and I'm fine giving up some combination of stepan zucc Nash Staal girardi raanta first rounder Holden Klein etc.

Get me those 2..Get rid of av..and I think we've got a cup caliber team.

Say zucc for trouba...stepan and raanta for duchene...

Get Vegas to take Klein b giving them a draft pick..

Buy out Staal..trade d.g. with 50 percent retained...

Sign Smith.

Kreider zibanejad Buchnecich
Vesey duchene Nash
Miller Hayes fasth
Hrivik or someone like him Lindberg grabner

McD trouba
Skjei Smith
Hunger games battle between clendo Holden beregazlov poink graves etc etc

 

[Ail]

I think that is living in fantasy land. Just because AV believes something, does not make it reality. Simply saying "Get creative and find a way to move them" is about as valid as saying "Go lift some weights and then press a car over your head".

First of all, even if no one else in the entire NHL with influence sees those two the same way AV does, which I sincerely doubt is the case, it doesn't make them unable to be moved. Getting creative means finding a way, IE, giving up a pick or prospect to get a team to take them, which isn't at all out of the realm of possibility. Second of all, as usual, your analogy sucks and makes zero sense.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Okay, but the key question would be 'is Stepan still > Galchenyuk' in a year from now?

Even if he isn't, I don't think the gap is so big that it's a gamble thats not worth taking.

Assuming that you can't find a deal for him involving a D that you like.

 

[Ghost of jas]

If I could tell you, I would.

But that's why these type of deals are made. And why even though this type of move may not address the biggest flaw this team has, (I.e., RD), it could still improve the team. The Rangers would be betting that they could be getting the better player going forward. And then, maybe they create the space to add Shattenkirk, instead of having to throw assets at acquiring a RD.

 

[silverfish]

But that's why these type of deals are made. And why even though this type of move may not address the biggest flaw this team has, (I.e., RD), it could still improve the team. The Rangers would be betting that they could be getting the better player going forward. And then, maybe they create the space to add Shattenkirk, instead of having to throw assets at a hiring a RD.

Despite being one of the more aggressive-in-trades posters on here, I really don't think I'd risk trading Stepan on the hopes that Galchenyuk's career path is trending upwards and trending upwards enough to surpass what Stepan brings to this team already and will bring to this team 3 years down the line.

Especially after the year Galchenyuk just had.

But hey, that's me.

 

[Bluenote13]

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to say we can rob teams blind, but numerous opportunities will arise. Its just about being in a position to capitalize, which i think Gorton is in.

Think Zibby for Brass, very similar to Silfer for Ryan (a trade Ducks fans make 10/10 now). Gorton will need to look for opportunities to reset at certain positions, and add several years to the teams "window."

Step might be the next best candidate for such a move. Everyone needs to be on the table to honestly and openly explore these opportunities.

Yes, he better take advantage of opportunities, 'get creative' is WAY better than 'lets rob them blind'.

For too many years Sather sat on his best assets, his huge leap was Nash, which was a great trade, but did we get what we expected from Nash? He was supposed to be a franchise forward. We should have supplied the backend with a young puckmover. At the time I named AHL guys like Vatanen, Voynov and Barrie. I was willing to overpay for such a player if need be, and all of those clubs were looking for defensive dmen at the time.

6 years ago I advocated to trade Girardi or Staal. My reasoning was the injury factor, and my exact words were 'eventually all these shot blocks are gonna add up and when their game goes south its gonna go south very quickly. I'm no genius, just had foresight for the future, which is always around the corner in pro sports. You constantly have to look towards it or you'll get caught up in cap hell with declining players with fat immovable contracts.

 

[Holocene]

didn't do enough with this roster before the deadline.

smith was the only addition to the roster. didn't address the pp point nor add anyone who could hit the water from the beach.

too much belief in this aging group. they weren't good enough nor was the coach able to utilize them properly.

AV needs to go.

younger, better, faster, cheaper

I think Gorton did fine at the deadline. Think back to Feb/March and the expectations we all had of this team. Did anyone really think we needed to load up to go on a run?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Despite being one of the more aggressive-in-trades posters on here, I really don't think I'd risk trading Stepan on the hopes that Galchenyuk's career path is trending upwards and trending upwards enough to surpass what Stepan brings to this team already and will bring to this team 3 years down the line.

Especially after the year Galchenyuk just had.

But hey, that's me.

Yeah well if he had continued to trend upwards or had even matched his previous season, Stepan doesn't even get you in the conversation.

Somehow I doubt the kid peaked at 22. But probably best to agree to disagree at this point.

 

[True Blue]

First of all, even if no one else in the entire NHL with influence sees those two the same way AV does, which I sincerely doubt is the case, it doesn't make them unable to be moved.

So all here spend the entire season calling them the worse defensemen in the league and yet you believe that there are GMs out there that see things differently and see them as valuable players? Seems to me that one of you is wrong then.

Getting creative means finding a way, IE, giving up a pick or prospect to get a team to take them, which isn't at all out of the realm of possibility.

The team with the worst farm system in the NHL bribing another team with a first round pick to take on their unwanted is a fairly short sighted view.

Second of all, as usual, your analogy sucks and makes zero sense.

Your tunnel vision views & statements as usual suck and make zero sense. Feel free to carry on sitting in a corner and telling yourself just how smart & witty you are.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Yes, he better take advantage of opportunities, 'get creative' is WAY better than 'lets rob them blind'.

For too many years Sather sat on his best assets, his huge leap was Nash, which was a great trade, but did we get what we expected from Nash? He was supposed to be a franchise forward. We should have supplied the backend with a young puckmover. At the time I named AHL guys like Vatanen, Voynov and Barrie. I was willing to overpay for such a player if need be, and all of those clubs were looking for defensive dmen at the time.

6 years ago I advocated to trade Girardi or Staal. My reasoning was the injury factor, and my exact words were 'eventually all these shot blocks are gonna add up and when their game goes south its gonna go south very quickly. I'm no genius, just had foresight for the future, which is always around the corner in pro sports. You constantly have to look towards it or you'll get caught up in cap hell with declining players with fat immovable contracts.

Stepan for Galchenyuk, then?

 

[Bluenote13]

I agree TB, adding a first rounder to take our mistakes off our hands is not 'getting creative'. Its over payment to make up for past losses.

 

[xsniper11x]

Yes, he better take advantage of opportunities, 'get creative' is WAY better than 'lets rob them blind'.

For too many years Sather sat on his best assets, his huge leap was Nash, which was a great trade, but did we get what we expected from Nash? He was supposed to be a franchise forward. We should have supplied the backend with a young puckmover. At the time I named AHL guys like Vatanen, Voynov and Barrie. I was willing to overpay for such a player if need be, and all of those clubs were looking for defensive dmen at the time.

6 years ago I advocated to trade Girardi or Staal. My reasoning was the injury factor, and my exact words were 'eventually all these shot blocks are gonna add up and when their game goes south its gonna go south very quickly. I'm no genius, just had foresight for the future, which is always around the corner in pro sports. You constantly have to look towards it or you'll get caught up in cap hell with declining players with fat immovable contracts.

Yes, which he did to an extent. It did take guts to pull off the Gaborik and Callahan trades, which were home runs given how they declined. Maybe doing those two plus Girardi, Staal and whoever was was just too much of a shakeup. I cant think of any contending playoff team that has shaken things up to that extent.

In retrospect it would've been the right move, but it is certainly not as obvious given the context.

 

[Ail]

So all here spend the entire season calling them the worse defensemen in the league and yet you believe that there are GMs out there that see things differently and see them as valuable players? Seems to me that one of you is wrong then.

Yes, AV and anyone else who might see them as good defensemen, are indeed wrong, but who cares so long as they take them? What is your point?

The team with the worst farm system in the NHL bribing another team with a first round pick to take on their unwanted is a fairly short sighted view.

Worst farm system in the NHL is your opinion, and also irrelevant. It doesn't have to be a first round pick or equivalent prospect, but even if it does take that, then that is what it takes to clean up the stupid mess made by bad management. Assets are to be used to make your team better, whether it is through the draft or through a trade. Getting rid of Staal or Girardi fits that criteria.

Your tunnel vision views & statements as usual suck and make zero sense. Feel free to carry on sitting in a corner and telling yourself just how smart & witty you are.

lol okay

 

[Ghost of jas]

You don't have to trade either Girardi or Staal. You just don't re-sign either of them. You have let both of them go to free agency. Instead of getting nothing for Stralman and minimal for Yandle, you get nothing for Staal and Girardi. And you're in a better place than you are now.

 

[Bluenote13]

Stepan for Galchenyuk, then?

IDK, Ideally I want a Centerman that will actually win a PP faceoff in the offensive zone on the regular. Stepan and his losing faceoffs at key moments just kills me, if it were not for the declining defenders, would be the worst part of watching this team IMO.

Years ago I was willing to trade Stepan to the Wild, who wouldve been very interested, and gotten back Koivu and a few of their prospects in a bigger deal than one for one. I was a big Granlund and Brodin fan.

 

[Bluenote13]

Yes, which he did to an extent. It did take guts to pull off the Gaborik and Callahan trades, which were home runs given how they declined. Maybe doing those two plus Girardi, Staal and whoever was was just too much of a shakeup. I cant think of any contending playoff team that has shaken things up to that extent.

In retrospect it would've been the right move, but it is certainly not as obvious given the context.

Gaborik trade was good, but Cally, we ended up with no assets from that deal a year and a half later, plus we gave TB our 1st rounder.

The defense needed a puckmover, and still does !

The Yandle deal was awful, he was not a factor on the PP and his defense was suspect. If the offense was there no one would've cared much of his defensive shortcomings.

 

[Raspewtin]

The Yandle deal was awful, he was not a factor on the PP and his defense was suspect. If the offense was there no one would've cared much of his defensive shortcomings.

People still believe this lie?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Losing faceoffs on the PP sucks, but its hardly the be all end all.

The bigger issue is that they didn't know what to do with the puck once they got things set up. Winning a few draws isn't going to change that.

 

[Bluenote13]

People still believe this lie?

2015 stats : 3 assists in 21 regular season games, 0 pp points in 5 playoff games.