Player Discussion Jay Beagle

[Zippgunn]

Did you even think before hammering the down the keyboard? Beagle played a grand total of 8 ECHL regular season games where he had 10 points. Then in 18 playoff games he managed just 3 points - seems like a true post season warrior!!!

And by the way, Burrows scored almost as many points as Beagle had NHL games under his belt.

Gosh, I completely forgot that Beagle's job was to score points...

 

[PuckMunchkin]

interesting mid-season breakdown of beagle by a caps blogger. talks about his extreme defensive deployment last year as a 4th liner and as a drop-in face off guy. i wonder if the canucks went after him as a pure malholtra, or whether they think he will bounce back in less rigid deployment.

Jay Beagle’s workload is not okay

They said why they went after him. To free up Sutter for a more offensive role.

 

[rypper]

Sometimes when players sign new contracts people need to be reminded that the general negativity to it isn't directed at the player, but at the contract itself or the management group that signed it. I don't blame Jay Beagle for signing that deal, it was a great deal for HIM. For the team though? That's a different story.

 

[Icebreakers]

Gosh, I completely forgot that Beagle's job was to score points...

We got to make the playoffs first before we should be talking about Beagles playoff value. He may not see the playoffs in his time in Vancouver.

I dont like it when people say "hes won at all levels" and try to make it seem that hes a winner as if he will bring that to the team. Its just coincidence.

Taylor Hall won back to back memorial cups before he got drafted and he didnt make the playoffs for 7 years in the NHL.

 

[Zippgunn]

I dont like it when people say "hes won at all levels" and try to make it seem that hes a winner as if he will bring that to the team. Its just coincidence.

.

...not sure if serious...

 

[RobertKron]

Gosh, I completely forgot that Beagle's job was to score points...

You think he was a 4th liner in the coast league and made it to the NHL?

Actually, that is probably what you think.

 

[Icebreakers]

...not sure if serious...

Jim Benning?

 

[Fire Benning]

If one of the most common rationalizations for a contract is that you could just buy the player out in a few seasons, then it's probably not a good contract.

 

[Fire Benning]

wow, canucks signed a top 20 center.

 

[Lindgren]

If one of the most common rationalizations for a contract is that you could just buy the player out in a few seasons, then it's probably not a good contract.

And if that same contract is actually close to buy-out proof, and if the moment you sign the player he becomes close to untradable ...

 

[pgj98m3]

And if that same contract is actually close to buy-out proof, and if the moment you sign the player he becomes close to untradable ...

But why would you want to trade a foundational, winning, and...ummm...oh right, veteran i.e. old player????????

 

[Lindgren]

But why would you want to trade a foundational, winning, and...ummm...oh right, veteran i.e. old player????????

I have this dream that a new management team finds a way to overcome all these bad contracts, shedding them for late-round picks or ... anything. In the meantime, we're stuck with magical thinking. Trade for a player, give him a big raise, that'll make him a good (foundational) player.

I see that free agent Luca "top four" Sbisa is still without a contract.

 

[Nick Lang]

Sometimes when players sign new contracts people need to be reminded that the general negativity to it isn't directed at the player, but at the contract itself or the management group that signed it. I don't blame Jay Beagle for signing that deal, it was a great deal for HIM. For the team though? That's a different story.

Yeah, we'll see. Personally I think it's going to prove a massive win. Dorsett+ setting our youngsters up for the future and possibly all coming together for a legendary Cup run... in his final year.

 

[Canucks1096]

With Beagle now. I expect Horvat to get at least 60 to 70% offensive zone starts and Beagle should replace Horvat on the PK. Horvat is the number 1 center but never had a season of over 50% offensive zone starts. Canucks try to groom Horvat like he is he is the next Kesler. Horvat is not that great defensively and on the pk as well. He is okay defensively but no way he should play those tough defensive minutes.

 

[Bleach Clean]

With Beagle now. I expect Horvat to get at least 60 to 70% offensive zone starts and Beagle should replace Horvat on the PK. Horvat is the number 1 center but never had a season of over 50% offensive zone starts. Canucks try to groom Horvat like he is he is the next Kesler. Horvat is not that great defensively and on the pk as well. He is okay defensively but no way he should play those tough defensive minutes.

I actually like what they are doing to groom Horvat. He's OK defensively, yes, but he has the tool set to be better there. Why let him off the hook? He's still developing, after all.

To me, taking Horvat away from the Dzone starts and the PK is a step back for his development. He needs to improve in these areas. Without the reps, he's not going to be afforded the opportunity to do so.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I have this dream that a new management team finds a way to overcome all these bad contracts, shedding them for late-round picks or ... anything. In the meantime, we're stuck with magical thinking. Trade for a player, give him a big raise, that'll make him a good (foundational) player.

I see that free agent Luca "top four" Sbisa is still without a contract.

Wish we let Gudbranson walk and brought back Sbisa on a cheaper shorter contract.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I actually like what they are doing to groom Horvat. He's OK defensively, yes, but he has the tool set to be better there. Why let him off the hook? He's still developing, after all.

To me, taking Horvat away from the Dzone starts and the PK is a step back for his development. He needs to improve in these areas. Without the reps, he's not going to be afforded the opportunity to do so.

And who's going to score goals? Who's going to centre the 1st line? Aren't Sutter and Beagle ample for the hard defensive duties? It's not as if there's a better offensive centre on the team now. If we still see Horvat slogging through defensive zone deployment while Gagner or Sutter get the offensive minutes I'm going to freak.

 

[Bleach Clean]

And who's going to score goals? Who's going to centre the 1st line? Aren't Sutter and Beagle ample for the hard defensive duties? It's not as if there's a better offensive centre on the team now. If we still see Horvat slogging through defensive zone deployment while Gagner or Sutter get the offensive minutes I'm going to freak.

Of course they can't really do that now. Horvat has to play the lion's share of the offensive minutes. Beagle and Sutter are not offensive centres. By default, this will push Horvat to get the Ozone starts. I would not have constructed the team in this way. That's where I'm heading with this. I would have targeted more offensive contributors so as to give Horvat the option to play offense or defense, not just offense.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Of course that can't really do that now. Horvat has to play the lion's share of the offensive minutes. Beagle and Sutter are not offensive centres. By default, this will push Horvat to get the Ozone starts. I would not have constructed the team in this way. That's where I'm heading with this. I would have targeted more offensive contributors so as to give Horvat the option to play offense or defense, not just offense.

And take some of the pressure of the kids. Now if Boeser / Horvat doesnt score 2 or more we lose the game.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Hey look. It's Jay Beagle

 

[valkynax]

Hey look. It's Jay Beagle

It's Jay THE Beagle, not Jay Beagle.

 

[Paulinvancouver]

Looooooooove me some Jay Beagle!!

And I think you will too!

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Looooooooove me some Jay Beagle!!

And I think you will too!

 

[Nick Lang]

Even if you're buried in the D-zone, 39% is still particularly awful. 40% shot attempts/scoring chances is like the Mendoza line. If you can't crack that, you shouldn't be in the NHL.

Back in the heyday, an uber-defensively deployed Malhotra was 45+%. During the Blackhawks runs, Kruger (who had probably the worst zone start ratio of any regular NHLer) was around 50% IIRC. I'm not a Sutter fan by any stretch, but he had worse zone deployment (and tougher competition) yet was still 44/45% in corsi and xGoals. If you scroll through the lists of forwards with the toughest zone start ratios last year, Beagle is actually uniquely bad. Like, Faksa and Sissons were cracking 50% in tough deployment.

So yes, in sum, Beagle is not very good. And bringing him on in an effort to "teach" defense to Petterson is extremely foolish rationale.

Just shows how flawed Corsi, and fancy stats, can be used to unintelligently analyze a hockey player.

 

[bossram]

Just shows how flawed Corsi, and fancy stats, can be used to unintelligently analyze a hockey player.

How so? You haven't provided any explanation yourself. Show how "intelligent" you are then.

Here's the bottom-line: Many defensively oriented players put up vastly better results than Beagle. Therefore, using his deployment as an excuse for why he gets poor results is a bad argument, as having tough deployment does not preclude the ability to still put up strong results.

I'm always fascinated by the "fancy stats are dumb" crowd who provide no logical explanation or counter-argument of their own.