Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Montag DP]

Oh my gosh. Enough with this narrative. So he didn't knock our socks off and light the world on fire. Apparently 12 goals isn't enough to say he's got scoring ability. I also saw a lot more hustle backchecking than I did from most players on this team. There's no need to hit the panic button on Mittelstadt. We're not even in that area code.

Some people seem to always need to have extreme opinions. Before a prospect hits the NHL, he's going to be the next Federov, and then if he ends up looking like a 20-year-old rookie as should have been expected, he's a bust.

(Note the two extreme opinions mentioned are not necessarily held by the same people.)

 

[Buffaloed]

I want to be entertained on the internet!!!!

If you're only doing it for fun, might as well waterboard him.

 

[Man of Principles]

And for the record I'd also like to say I think he can be a 2C as soon as this year. I'm not looking at last year as a failure, but rather a time he showed his lack of experience at this level but also showed incredible flashes. First year is under his belt and he better have known how important this Summer is/was.

Since this is in the Botterill thread I still would love to see if he could swing a trade for center help of any kind at this point but I don't feel that badly having Mittelstadt be the 2C. Perhaps he finds chemistry with a Reinhart or a Skinner since Vesey could very well be one of Jack's wingers.

 

[Buffaloed]

Some people seem to always need to have extreme opinions. Before a prospect hits the NHL, he's going to be the next Federov, and then if he ends up looking like a 20-year-old rookie as should have been expected, he's a bust.

(Note the two extreme opinions mentioned are not necessarily held by the same people.)

The many faces of Sam
At the Draft: future star, hockey IQ off the charts
Sent back to Juniors: Bust
Returns to the NHL: Bust, bust, bust, bust, bust, THE REAL DEAL!

 

[Dingo44]

After waiting a while I just found the link for the interview on my own:

08-07 Sabres general manager Jason Botterill with The Instigators

 

[Fearnot]

After waiting a while I just found the link for the interview on my own:

08-07 Sabres general manager Jason Botterill with The Instigators

Building 4 lines that can score gave me some hope.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

If you offered all 3 of those guys to the Blues for ROR how fast do you think they would laugh and hang up the phone. The people trying to make ROR sound like a bit player in their success need to tune into Reality FM, because apparently we are supposed to believe that he ended up with the Conn Smythe by getting it out of one of those claw arcade games.

Well they wouldn't trade RoR for that because they actively targeted him and don't have the center depth. And he had 3 goals the first 3 rounds. Binnington got robbed of the Conn Smythe.

And those 3 players are worth a pretty good amount. Colin Miller is 27 and a legit top 4 dman. Ryan Johnson is looking like a top D prospect with #2 potential. Tage is still a potential 20 goal top 9 winger. There have been far worse returns for players then what we got.

Why can't the trade be a win win? No matter what the trade will be skewed because they won the cup right away, but if Buffalo also wins a cup within the next few years and 2 of the 3 pieces are contributors to a cup winner?

What a surprise that the sole proven top tier player for futures trade looks one sided 12 months after. Thats why its called FUTURES.

What I liked the most is that the piece of the trade that was literally NEVER talked about directly brought in a 27 year old proven #3 dman. If you don't think Botts was ordered to make the trade before that huge bonus was paid then you are clearly a Botts hater. For the first time in the Pegula era the GM was not allowed to use the power of Pegula bucks. If the Sabres were not desperately trying to dump RoR before the bonus then they would not have traded him when they did. They would have paid the bonus and opened up the trade market exponentially instead of being hamstrung in literally only having 1 possible trade partner. Until we see Johnsons development path this trade is still incomplete. If Johnson becomes the top 4 dman he is projected to be and Thompson is a 15-20 goal middle 6 winger to go with the top 4 D in Miller then this trade is a win win.

 

[sabremike]

Well they wouldn't trade RoR for that because they actively targeted him and don't have the center depth. And he had 3 goals the first 3 rounds. Binnington got robbed of the Conn Smythe.

And those 3 players are worth a pretty good amount. Colin Miller is 27 and a legit top 4 dman. Ryan Johnson is looking like a top D prospect with #2 potential. Tage is still a potential 20 goal top 9 winger. There have been far worse returns for players then what we got.

Why can't the trade be a win win? No matter what the trade will be skewed because they won the cup right away, but if Buffalo also wins a cup within the next few years and 2 of the 3 pieces are contributors to a cup winner?

What a surprise that the sole proven top tier player for futures trade looks one sided 12 months after. Thats why its called FUTURES.

What I liked the most is that the piece of the trade that was literally NEVER talked about directly brought in a 27 year old proven #3 dman. If you don't think Botts was ordered to make the trade before that huge bonus was paid then you are clearly a Botts hater. For the first time in the Pegula era the GM was not allowed to use the power of Pegula bucks. If the Sabres were not desperately trying to dump RoR before the bonus then they would not have traded him when they did. They would have paid the bonus and opened up the trade market exponentially instead of being hamstrung in literally only having 1 possible trade partner. Until we see Johnsons development path this trade is still incomplete. If Johnson becomes the top 4 dman he is projected to be and Thompson is a 15-20 goal middle 6 winger to go with the top 4 D in Miller then this trade is a win win.

Seriously, I don't know what else to say at this point. Us having flushed the first 6 years of Jack's career and Dahlin's entire ELC straight down the toilet looks like a safe bet (unless you think it's possible to win with a single credible NHL quality center on the roster).

 

[Gabrielor]

Well they wouldn't trade RoR for that because they actively targeted him and don't have the center depth. And he had 3 goals the first 3 rounds. Binnington got robbed of the Conn Smythe.

And those 3 players are worth a pretty good amount. Colin Miller is 27 and a legit top 4 dman. Ryan Johnson is looking like a top D prospect with #2 potential. Tage is still a potential 20 goal top 9 winger. There have been far worse returns for players then what we got.

Why can't the trade be a win win? No matter what the trade will be skewed because they won the cup right away, but if Buffalo also wins a cup within the next few years and 2 of the 3 pieces are contributors to a cup winner?

What a surprise that the sole proven top tier player for futures trade looks one sided 12 months after. Thats why its called FUTURES.

What I liked the most is that the piece of the trade that was literally NEVER talked about directly brought in a 27 year old proven #3 dman. If you don't think Botts was ordered to make the trade before that huge bonus was paid then you are clearly a Botts hater. For the first time in the Pegula era the GM was not allowed to use the power of Pegula bucks. If the Sabres were not desperately trying to dump RoR before the bonus then they would not have traded him when they did. They would have paid the bonus and opened up the trade market exponentially instead of being hamstrung in literally only having 1 possible trade partner. Until we see Johnsons development path this trade is still incomplete. If Johnson becomes the top 4 dman he is projected to be and Thompson is a 15-20 goal middle 6 winger to go with the top 4 D in Miller then this trade is a win win.

That trade wasn’t a “win-win”, at all. This post is overestimating each piece of the return. This post is also, hilariously, underselling the reigning smythe and selke winner. This post is also, also ignoring the crap in berglund and Sobotka that was supposed to be the “depth to fix us.”

This trade failed. Miserably.

 

[Chainshot]

Building 4 lines that can score gave me some hope.

I wonder if that means someone with finish winds up on the Larry-Gus line.

 

[brian_griffin]

I wonder if that means someone with finish Finnish winds up on the Larry-Gus line.

RW Rasmus Ristolainen.

 

[Club]

Anyone know where I could find the August 12(?) Or the latest Botterill interview with WGR/The instagators I found it on the nhl app but i keep getting an error when I try to play it.

Thanks!

 

[Paxon]

Anyone know where I could find the August 12(?) Or the latest Botterill interview with WGR/The instagators I found it on the nhl app but i keep getting an error when I try to play it.

Thanks!

The Instigators
It should be there somewhere but that day is only in hourly segments, no separate interview segment, so you'll have to fast forward.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Given how Skinner-Eichel compliment one another and how Reinhart draws Mitts way up, the easiest one seems like it should be finding a replacement RW for Jack's line to operate as the usual F3 type, covering a bit more on defense, while someone else gets LW with Casey and Sam. Originally, that looked like it could be/should be Olofsson to take advantage of Casey's passing and VO's shooting, but with Johansson on board, that could also be an option. Or Marcus could wind up as the RW on Jack's line, doing the muck work.

It's nice to have a few options. Let's hope they try some.

Could also have E-Rod be the 3rd wheel on Eich's line and drop Johansson down to the 3rd for some semblance of scoring depth. Heck, you could even put Vesey or Sheary on the 2nd line (letting/forcing Reinhart really drive the bus for that line) and pair Olofsson and Johansson together on the 3rd to try and get 3 lines that each might actually be capable of scoring.

 

[Chainshot]

Could also have E-Rod be the 3rd wheel on Eich's line and drop Johansson down to the 3rd for some semblance of scoring depth. Heck, you could even put Vesey or Sheary on the 2nd line (letting/forcing Reinhart really drive the bus for that line) and pair Olofsson and Johansson together on the 3rd to try and get 3 lines that each might actually be capable of scoring.

Yep, all possible. It will be interesting to see how they gel during camp.

 

[old kummelweck]

Any audio of Botterill today?

 

[Jim Bob]

Any audio of Botterill today?

9-9 Jason Botterill

 

[Dingo44]

This is the craziest article. It's not my problem if you can't read it because it's cheap to subscribe to The Athletic and worth every penny.

Dave Dombrowski's success with the Red Sox masked...

Anyway, Dave Dombrowski got fired by the Red Sox while they are still the defending World Series Champions. He also won three straight division championships. Apparently, according to the article, he didn't do enough to set them up for future success, like the Yankees and Astros (who haven't won as many World Championships as the Red Sox this decade).

It's so what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, but it made me think - if Botts or another GM went all-in and we ended up winning the Stanley Cup (!), but then our farm system was hurting for a time, would it be worth it? I mean, they'd HAVE to win, so it's a big risk, one that Jarmo Kekäläinen took last season. But if they did, would it be worth it?

For me , it's no contest - YES. I'm not saying that's what I want Botts to do, but if a Sabres GM actually got us a Cup, then he'd have a lot of leeway from me for quite a while. It's hard to complain when you're defending Cup champs (not that I've ever known that feeling), though I am sure people do. I just want at least ONE.

 

[old kummelweck]

9-9 Jason Botterill

He's so hard to listen to.

 

[Heretic]

This is the craziest article. It's not my problem if you can't read it because it's cheap to subscribe to The Athletic and worth every penny.

Dave Dombrowski's success with the Red Sox masked...

Anyway, Dave Dombrowski got fired by the Red Sox while they are still the defending World Series Champions. He also won three straight division championships. Apparently, according to the article, he didn't do enough to set them up for future success, like the Yankees and Astros (who haven't won as many World Championships as the Red Sox this decade).

It's so what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, but it made me think - if Botts or another GM went all-in and we ended up winning the Stanley Cup (!), but then our farm system was hurting for a time, would it be worth it? I mean, they'd HAVE to win, so it's a big risk, one that Jarmo Kekäläinen took last season. But if they did, would it be worth it?

For me , it's no contest - YES. I'm not saying that's what I want Botts to do, but if a Sabres GM actually got us a Cup, then he'd have a lot of leeway from me for quite a while. It's hard to complain when you're defending Cup champs (not that I've ever known that feeling), though I am sure people do. I just want at least ONE.

I mean, yeah we want a cup more than anything, however evidence thus far does not show me that Botterill is inclined to bet the farm for a cup anytime soon. First off, we're not THAT close but sure he could go on a spree and maybe we would be, but he's slowly building said farm and seems to go at a slow methodical pace so I expect that to continue which is probably the right way to do things. The worry, and his trades show he might also know when to strike when needed, is that we get close and he skips that move that gets us over the hump because he hesitates. It's really hard to say but obviously since we're not winning yet it's all tenuous at best. Obviously we're all hoping we upgraded from Housley to Krueger and the rest will be clearer if that goes well. Really I'm more interested to see if the team has growing pains with a new system or if they look like they get shot out of a cannon. You have to expect some growing pains, right? When does Botts upshift and add a piece I guess would be the next move to look for.

 

[Chainshot]

The goal has to be winning a Cup. Even if they trash the farm system making rental moves, Big Shiny absolves all.

 

[Chainshot]

As an addendum: Jarmo went in deep when he had both a wealth of various prospects in his pool and the confidence in his staff to find UDFA types. Botterill has been good at that with landing some quality UDFA both European and collegiate, so I would expect him to have confidence in the staff to offset some pick and prospect drain in that fashion.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

As an addendum: Jarmo went in deep when he had both a wealth of various prospects in his pool and the confidence in his staff to find UDFA types. Botterill has been good at that with landing some quality UDFA both European and collegiate, so I would expect him to have confidence in the staff to offset some pick and prospect drain in that fashion.

Jarmo went in with the reckless abandon of a gambler looking to get unstuck. Not like a card counter who determines the deck is juicy.

 

[dotcommunism]

This is the craziest article. It's not my problem if you can't read it because it's cheap to subscribe to The Athletic and worth every penny.

Dave Dombrowski's success with the Red Sox masked...

Anyway, Dave Dombrowski got fired by the Red Sox while they are still the defending World Series Champions. He also won three straight division championships. Apparently, according to the article, he didn't do enough to set them up for future success, like the Yankees and Astros (who haven't won as many World Championships as the Red Sox this decade).

It's so what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, but it made me think - if Botts or another GM went all-in and we ended up winning the Stanley Cup (!), but then our farm system was hurting for a time, would it be worth it? I mean, they'd HAVE to win, so it's a big risk, one that Jarmo Kekäläinen took last season. But if they did, would it be worth it?

For me , it's no contest - YES. I'm not saying that's what I want Botts to do, but if a Sabres GM actually got us a Cup, then he'd have a lot of leeway from me for quite a while. It's hard to complain when you're defending Cup champs (not that I've ever known that feeling), though I am sure people do. I just want at least ONE.

I think there are a few other things that need to be considered to contextualize that piece. First off, the Red Sox have a history of feeding hit pieces to the media after they fire guys. So take anything out of the Boston media telling you that a seemingly successful guy was actually terrible at his job with more than a grain of salt.
The second thing is the current economic state of baseball. Baseball's economics have become completely decoupled from team success. Success isn't viewed as a bad thing, in and of itself, but it is if it doesn't help maximize the team's economic goals. Dombrowski's approach runs contrary to that, and this year they aren't having the success they hoped they would, while actually paying players, so he had to go.

That said, as pertains to your question, winning is the ultimate goal. When a team prioritizes other, often nebulous, goals over winning then there's probably something else going on.

 

[Dingo44]

I think there are a few other things that need to be considered to contextualize that piece. First off, the Red Sox have a history of feeding hit pieces to the media after they fire guys. So take anything out of the Boston media telling you that a seemingly successful guy was actually terrible at his job with more than a grain of salt.
The second thing is the current economic state of baseball. Baseball's economics have become completely decoupled from team success. Success isn't viewed as a bad thing, in and of itself, but it is if it doesn't help maximize the team's economic goals. Dombrowski's approach runs contrary to that, and this year they aren't having the success they hoped they would, while actually paying players, so he had to go.

That said, as pertains to your question, winning is the ultimate goal. When a team prioritizes other, often nebulous, goals over winning then there's probably something else going on.

Thanks. I actually thought it wasn't a fair or well written article, and didn't make a lot of sense to me.

A lot of it comes from this entitlement of expecting championships, when the two sports teams about which I am passionate have never in their history had even one in their current leagues.

But baseball is a different animal indeed. There are the few large market teams that can keep or buy players, and the small ones that have to hope lightning strikes at least once before it gets taken apart.