Jason Botterill Discussion 3

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sabremike

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Just so I have your “logic” down.

Botts mentioned Sam as an option at center repeatedly when Housley was here. Yet Sam only got a brief stint there in the very beginning of Phil’s tenure and never went back. Now you lament Botts saying “Sam is a wing”*** because it means Krueger has no say in how to use him. Which is completely contradicted by the facts around Housley’s use of him

*** Botts said Sam showed he can drive a line from the wing . Which is a little bit different than simply saying he is a winger. It implies a line can be built around Sam even if he plays wing. Which matters quite a lot from a team building pov.



Its getting old seeing the fallacy of Tage/Mitts getting gifted spots over Nylander/CJ Smith having life. It was never the reality. Yet some on here continue to use it to overplay the argument about Tage/Mitts and the supposed hypocrisy of Botts on development. Botts made one big screw up with development. Keeping Tage up as long as they did. The tearing down of Mitts has been a sad but predictable theme on this board.
There are very few players I can recall who lost as much value in a span of 365 days as Mitts did. He went from budding superstar to guy people were suggesting being used as a sweeter in a trade. Last season was a disaster for Mitts. What positive can you give for him being sent out to get wrecked and abused on a nightly basis? He was not an NHL level player last season
 

Dreakon13

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There are very few players I can recall who lost as much value in a span of 365 days as Mitts did. He went from budding superstar to guy people were suggesting being used as a sweeter in a trade.
I think you place entirely too much weight on the random crap you see on here. If anything that "loss of value" is just an indictment on the extremes that you see online these days. No one should have expected Mitts to play like a budding superstar last year, and no one should be ready to give him away after a disappointing rookie season on one of the worst teams in the NHL.
 
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sabremike

#1 Tageaholic
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I think you place entirely too much weight on the random crap you see on here. If anything that "loss of value" is just an indictment on the extremes that you see online these days. No one should have expected Mitts to play like a budding superstar last year, and no one should be ready to give him away after a disappointing rookie season on one of the worst teams in the NHL.
Forget superstar, he didn't look like he even belonged in the league. Unfortunately our embarrassing depth at the position all but forced him to be kept up. Quite frankly they should've just bit the bullet and called up some ham n' egger from the AHL and sent Mitts down because last season did Mitts no good whatsoever.
 
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Sabresfansince1980

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Mittelstadt puts up 25 pts, poor but not a train wreck defensively...very predictable for a 19/20 yr old in their first NHL season, but on this board it's a farking disaster that ruined his "value" or even his entire career. Not like there was even a half-way decent C to call up from Roch.

RIP Mitts...he had his whole life in front of him. Remembrance video first game night?
 

Dreakon13

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Quite frankly they should've just bit the bullet and called up some ham n' egger from the AHL and sent Mitts down because last season did Mitts no good whatsoever.
If Mittelstadt's confidence is completely shot after one down year, and he walked away from a full season of playing and being coached in the NHL with nothing that he can use to train/prepare for next season... then let's be honest, he'd never make it no matter where he played last year. I absolutely don't think that's the case, but we're just arguing opinions here.
 

joshjull

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There are very few players I can recall who lost as much value in a span of 365 days as Mitts did. He went from budding superstar to guy people were suggesting being used as a sweeter in a trade. Last season was a disaster for Mitts. What positive can you give for him being sent out to get wrecked and abused on a nightly basis? He was not an NHL level player last season

I
f any posters believe that then they are attaching themselves to a spectacularly stupid take. Any potential he had prior to last season is still there. He’s 20 years old for f***s sake.

What I got out of last season is Mitts wasn’t physically ready for the grind of the NHL season and needs to get stronger. But his thinking of the game and instincts were pretty close to NHL ready. Now he needs the physical strength to match it. Then he can effectively pull off what his brain was telling him to try.

It also would have been nice if his coached helped him out. Sam struggled in his short tenure in the exact same center role. ** Phil saw it and moved him to the wing and up into the top 6 with either Jack or ROR as his center. Giving him top level players to play with. Mitts could have been moved to wing or had Sam on his wing to make his life infinitely easier. He could have gotten a decent length run on PP #1 to boost his confidence. Its not like it was kicking ass after all. Any of these things could have been done to help his transition to the NHL but none were.

** For perspective. Its worth remembering Sam was entering his 3rd NHL season and 4th season post draft when he got that shot at center. He was a much more developed player and was playing behind Jack/ROR. Yet he struggled in the role as well. Mitts was entering his rookie campaign and 2nd post draft season. In other words 2 years behind where Sam was developmentally. I’m not going to read much into this past season.
 
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old kummelweck

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If any posters believe that then they are attaching themselves to a spectacularly stupid take. Any potential he had prior to last season is still there. He’s 20 years old for ****s sake.

What I got out of last season is Mitts wasn’t physically ready for the grind of the NHL season and needs to get stronger. But his thinking of the game and instincts were pretty close to NHL ready. Now he needs the physical strength to match it. Then he can effectively pull off what his brain was telling him to try.

It also would have been nice if his coached helped him out. Sam struggled in his short tenure in the exact same center role. ** Phil saw it and moved him to the wing and up into the top 6 with either Jack or ROR as his center. Giving him top level players to play with. Mitts could have been moved to wing or had Sam on his wing to make his life infinitely easier. He could have gotten a decent length run on PP #1 to boost his confidence. Its not like it was kicking ass after all. Any of these things could have been done to help his transition to the NHL but none were.

** For perspective. Its worth remembering Sam was entering his 3rd NHL season and 4th season post draft when he got that shot at center. He was a much more developed player and was playing behind Jack/ROR. Yet he struggled in the role as well. Mitts was entering his rookie campaign and 2nd post draft season. In other words 2 years behind where Sam was developmentally. I’m not going to read much into this past season.

I actually like the idea of Mitts between Skinner and Reinhart. Jack can have Thompson and Olofsson.
 

threeVo

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Mitts isnt committed enough to hockey to be elite. Yet. He needs to get it together quick
 

sabremike

#1 Tageaholic
Aug 30, 2010
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Brewster, NY
If any posters believe that then they are attaching themselves to a spectacularly stupid take. Any potential he had prior to last season is still there. He’s 20 years old for ****s sake.

What I got out of last season is Mitts wasn’t physically ready for the grind of the NHL season and needs to get stronger. But his thinking of the game and instincts were pretty close to NHL ready. Now he needs the physical strength to match it. Then he can effectively pull off what his brain was telling him to try.

It also would have been nice if his coached helped him out. Sam struggled in his short tenure in the exact same center role. ** Phil saw it and moved him to the wing and up into the top 6 with either Jack or ROR as his center. Giving him top level players to play with. Mitts could have been moved to wing or had Sam on his wing to make his life infinitely easier. He could have gotten a decent length run on PP #1 to boost his confidence. Its not like it was kicking ass after all. Any of these things could have been done to help his transition to the NHL but none were.

** For perspective. Its worth remembering Sam was entering his 3rd NHL season and 4th season post draft when he got that shot at center. He was a much more developed player and was playing behind Jack/ROR. Yet he struggled in the role as well. Mitts was entering his rookie campaign and 2nd post draft season. In other words 2 years behind where Sam was developmentally. I’m not going to read much into this past season.
The problem is that the team put itself in a position (between the epic stupidity of the offseason and the outright refusal to even try Sam at center) where moving him was not possible because we had no other center option.
 

Fezzy126

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I think your trying to hard to be wound up over nothing. The following is direct quoting from Botts after he gets done talking about how different players can play different positions.


“We understand we can have the high end scorers. Jack, Sam, Jeff all proved that last year. But we have to have 4 lines that can contribute. And in the middle of August I can’t tell you exactly how the lineups are going to be. But we feel we have at least given Ralph different opportunities and different options for once the season starts.”

Who can play more than one position was pretty much just throwing out examples and didn’t really mean much.


EDIT: I wanted to hear a follow up question to these comments asking ..... Was not using that flexibility part of why Phil was fired? Because it sounds like it was.

I wouldn't say I'm wound up over this interview, it's a pointless radio interview in August, and Botts is the living embodiment of GM-speak. I'm pretty numb to hockey interviews in general, but especially during this time of year. Hell last year he talked about not needing to trade ROR right before he shipped him out the door, so his mentioning of Sobotka doesn't even move the needle for me (other than the reactionary cringing from hearing his name)

The thing that I find annoying is that Botts mentioned Sam as a possibility at center during his first summer on the job, and now he almost never mentions him among his players with position flexibility. This after seeing him get a few weeks worth of run at the pivot with poor teammates, while the entire team was struggling with chemistry and a new system. He briefly mentioned Sam as a possible center when Jack got hurt, but then that was never even tried.

I just want someone in the media to grill him hard on the subject once and for all so we can put it to bed:
1. Sam was briefly tried at center without a complimentary speed/size/scoring element on his wings, while the team was adapting to Phil and getting to know each other, is this the period that was used to evaluate him at center or is there more to it?
2. Young centers are sometimes developed on the wing before moving back to center, why haven't you tried that/will you try it out this year?
3. Sam's strengths & skillset (IQ, puck distributor) seem ideal for the center position, what is your evaluation (are there things holding him back - faceoffs, quickness)?
4. Has Sam told you he prefers the wing as opposed to the center position?
 
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La Cosa Nostra

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Jun 25, 2009
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There are very few players I can recall who lost as much value in a span of 365 days as Mitts did. He went from budding superstar to guy people were suggesting being used as a sweeter in a trade. Last season was a disaster for Mitts. What positive can you give for him being sent out to get wrecked and abused on a nightly basis? He was not an NHL level player last season

You must be from the train of thought that all AHL level players can come in and put up 25 points in limited ice time. I mean thats why Johan Larsson has never put up more then 17 points and Girgensons once in 6 full seasons and that was when he was force fed 19+ mins a night. The fact is Mitts has essentially put up 30 points in his first 83 games. For a 20 year old who got 4th line minutes last year and only PP2 time (1:30 less then the top unit) that is what to be expected.

Rasmus Asplund would not have been better then Mittelstadt. No player on Rochester at center would have. There are young top 10 pick centers 5-6 years in their development who are still scoring 25 points a season (see Bennett,Sam). I am confident Mitts will easily clear that mark this year. Losing confidence in Mitts and/or trading him would be the equivalent of Dylan Strome. Mitts still has high end potential and will still be that 60 point top 6 center. If Cozens also reaches his potential we would have an incredible center spine.

With Mitts adding Olofsson, Vesey and Johansson as his most likely linemates he will do much much better this year. Willing to bet Mitts puts up a .5 ppg or better.
 

Chainshot

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One of few fun ideas to try with Mitts

Given how Skinner-Eichel compliment one another and how Reinhart draws Mitts way up, the easiest one seems like it should be finding a replacement RW for Jack's line to operate as the usual F3 type, covering a bit more on defense, while someone else gets LW with Casey and Sam. Originally, that looked like it could be/should be Olofsson to take advantage of Casey's passing and VO's shooting, but with Johansson on board, that could also be an option. Or Marcus could wind up as the RW on Jack's line, doing the muck work.

It's nice to have a few options. Let's hope they try some.
 
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Chainshot

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I was interested in how he pointed out MJ was on RW but also that he is someone who they think can drive play through the neutral zone while mentioning Jack and Sam as others. I wonder if that is a nod to possibly spreading out to Johansson being on a line without either of them.

It was interesting that he talked up Portillo but by omission, I wonder if he is expecting Cederqvist or Cronholm to not make the Swede’s U20 team.
 
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joshjull

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Aug 2, 2005
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I wouldn't say I'm wound up over this interview, it's a pointless radio interview in August, and Botts is the living embodiment of GM-speak. I'm pretty numb to hockey interviews in general, but especially during this time of year. Hell last year he talked about not needing to trade ROR right before he shipped him out the door, so his mentioning of Sobotka doesn't even move the needle for me (other than the reactionary cringing from hearing his name)

The thing that I find annoying is that Botts mentioned Sam as a possibility at center during his first summer on the job, and now he almost never mentions him among his players with position flexibility. This after seeing him get a few weeks worth of run at the pivot with poor teammates, while the entire team was struggling with chemistry and a new system. He briefly mentioned Sam as a possible center when Jack got hurt, but then that was never even tried.

I just want someone in the media to grill him hard on the subject once and for all so we can put it to bed:
1. Sam was briefly tried at center without a complimentary speed/size/scoring element on his wings, while the team was adapting to Phil and getting to know each other, is this the period that was used to evaluate him at center or is there more to it?
2. Young centers are sometimes developed on the wing before moving back to center, why haven't you tried that/will you try it out this year?
3. Sam's strengths & skillset (IQ, puck distributor) seem ideal for the center position, what is your evaluation (are there things holding him back - faceoffs, quickness)?
4. Has Sam told you he prefers the wing as opposed to the center position?


YES YES YES to the bolded!!!!

I've wanted someone in the press to do this for some time.
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
79,186
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Hamburg,NY
Given how Skinner-Eichel compliment one another and how Reinhart draws Mitts way up, the easiest one seems like it should be finding a replacement RW for Jack's line to operate as the usual F3 type, covering a bit more on defense, while someone else gets LW with Casey and Sam. Originally, that looked like it could be/should be Olofsson to take advantage of Casey's passing and VO's shooting, but with Johansson on board, that could also be an option. Or Marcus could wind up as the RW on Jack's line, doing the muck work.

It's nice to have a few options. Let's hope they try some.


That's my preferred approach as well. But I'm not adverse to other ideas and hope Krueger isn't either.

Oh Ralpie, so much hinges on you and your staff. Please don't suck
 

old kummelweck

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If Botterill talks about Sam driving play from the wing, doesn't it follow logic that they don't see him as an NHL center? What would be the point of 'drilling' a GM about this other than to provide entertainment to dudes on the internet?
 
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joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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If Botterill talks about Sam driving play from the wing, doesn't it follow logic that they don't see him as an NHL center? What would be the point of 'drilling' a GM about this other than to provide entertainment to dudes on the internet?
I want to be entertained on the internet!!!!
 

Man of Principles

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Nov 30, 2011
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There are very few players I can recall who lost as much value in a span of 365 days as Mitts did. He went from budding superstar to guy people were suggesting being used as a sweeter in a trade. Last season was a disaster for Mitts. What positive can you give for him being sent out to get wrecked and abused on a nightly basis? He was not an NHL level player last season

Oh my gosh. Enough with this narrative. So he didn't knock our socks off and light the world on fire. Apparently 12 goals isn't enough to say he's got scoring ability. I also saw a lot more hustle backchecking than I did from most players on this team. There's no need to hit the panic button on Mittelstadt. We're not even in that area code.
 
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