Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Chainshot]

In terms of roster moves, I mostly liked his first summer and I've mostly liked this summer. I was left wanting more at the end of the first summer and right now, I'm having the same sort of concern. We'll see what shakes out with any other possible moves, even if cap space and contract limits seem to be shrinking daily.

Strangely, another scorer for Rochester is high on my list of things right now. And some sort of move to jettison some cap would be handy.

Other than that... waiting.

 

[Zman5778]

His most egregious sin was Housley by a long shot

In hindsight, yes. BUT, I think that's a sin most GMs would make. His name was a hot commodity. He was supposed to be the next big thing, coaching-wise. He wasn't, and that Botts pulled the trigger after 2 years is actually in Botts' favor in my book.

I'm sill wary about how much influence the Pegulas have over Botts, but I've largely liked his moves this summer.

 

[Buffaloed]

His most egregious sin was Housley by a long shot

It could turn out to be his greatest achievement. The Dahlin factor is huge.

 

[OkimLom]

Eh... agree to disagree. Pretty much everyone was on board with the Housley hire, and not just fans. Coming off of Bylsma, he seemed like a breath of fresh air. Good relationships with his players, success in Nashville, said all the right things about wanting to play aggressive, fun, offensive hockey. Who could've honestly guessed he had absolutely no idea what he was doing.

The only people against it were the people keeping score of who wins on the internet more, and are by default against everything the Sabres do because it's like a guaranteed 95% chance of being right.

Yep, he said all the right things, the things people wanted to hear. Bylsma did the exact same thing. Nolan did too. Krueger did as well. People have gotten pretty excited when we have hired a new coach in general (I think Rolston was the last coach people weren't pumped about, but I couldn't find that thread to see). At the end of the day, you have to be able to show people you know what the heck you're doing. So far, under Pegula ownership, we have not hired a good coach when it came down to actually putting a product on the ice. But each time, our fans in general, and media have all backed what they were doing with enthusiasm.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

It could turn out to be his greatest achievement. The Dahlin factor is huge.

Unless he did it on purpose, it doesn’t bode well for the future

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

Unless he did it on purpose, it doesn’t bode well for the future

And there's no way to do that on purpose unless Botterill is capable of rigging the NHL draft lottery.

 

[joshjull]

I've read this before and it's kind of misleading



Almost every team has 1, 2 or no one completely dedicated to analytics outside of Toronto. Even teams that have multiple people, those guys wear different hats. For example, Chayka is listed under the Yotes 'Analytics Department'. Montreal has Sedgwick, Allard, and Leblanc listed under their analytics department, but none are explicitly dedicated to data analysis.

The Sabres easily could have listed their Sports Science staff, video staff, people from the executive level team. That being said, I'd say everyone is pretty much at the same level outside of Toronto. And nothing about the amount of personnel says anything about how analytics is integrated within the organization. If the analysis isn't adopted from the top down, it doesn't matter how many people are employed.

This isn't to say I think the Sabres are doing a good job, I just don't think the outside view of 'analytics department' size tells us anything.

My favorite part of the chart is the N/A listed for the Stanley Cup champs.

 

[joshjull]

I like his moves this summer but he still pulled off one of the worst trades of this decade...that's hard for a franchise to recover from

This is an over the top take that seems all to common on here. Its not hard to recover from a ROR trade.

You know what’s hard to recover from? Tearing out the heart, leadership, talent and depth of a really good hockey team that won a President’s trophy. Something we managed to do in two offseasons with the Golisano/Quinn contract policies and break even approach of the time.

Losing ROR from one of the worst teams in the NHL (we were a bottom dweller his entire time here) is at best a speed bump in comparison no matter how bad you think the trade is.

Get some perspective people.

 

[sabremike]

Its not hard to recover from a ROR trade. This is an over the top take that seems all to common on here.

You know what’s hard to recover from? Tearing out the heart, leadership, talent and depth of a really good hockey team that won a President’s trophy. Something we managed to do in two offseasons with the Golisano/Quinn contract policies and break even approach of the time.

Losing ROR from one of the worst teams in the NHL (we were a bottom dweller his entire time here) is at best a speed bump in comparison no matter how bad you think the trade is.

Get some perspective people.

You realize the single biggest thing that is going to kill us this season (and likely the season or two after that) is not having an NHL quality #2 center (and #3 as well)? Imagine if we still had among the best #2 centers you could possibly get. The move also did so much other damage as well (such as having the worst player in the entire league (even worse than Uncle Leo because at least Leo tries).

 

[joshjull]

You realize the single biggest thing that is going to kill us this season (and likely the season or two after that) is not having an NHL quality #2 center (and #3 as well)? Imagine if we still had among the best #2 centers you could possibly get. The move also did so much other damage as well (such as having the worst player in the entire league (even worse than Uncle Leo because at least Leo tries).

The only thing that will kill us is another crappy coach. Which is what killed us with and without ROR the last two seasons.

 

[Snippit]

This is an over the top take that seems all to common on here. Its not hard to recover from a ROR trade.

You know what’s hard to recover from? Tearing out the heart, leadership, talent and depth of a really good hockey team that won a President’s trophy. Something we managed to do in two offseasons with the Golisano/Quinn contract policies and break even approach of the time.

Losing ROR from one of the worst teams in the NHL (we were a bottom dweller his entire time here) is at best a speed bump in comparison no matter how bad you think the trade is.

Get some perspective people.

Lol what is this

Because the team was/is really bad, that somehow makes it less worse to lose really good players?

It’s not an over the top take. It legitimately is one of the worst trades of the last 10 years.

 

[old kummelweck]

My criticism this off-season of Botterill is he hasn't addressed the goal tending. I just don't see anything in Hutton and Ullmark, and any outside chance of UPL comes to the rescue would mean the season is out of hand. Perhaps Bales thinks he can right the ship with the two, but re-watching games from last season I don't see a whole lot to work with.

 

[Montag DP]

My criticism this off-season of Botterill is he hasn't addressed the goal tending. I just don't see anything in Hutton and Ullmark, and any outside chance of UPL comes to the rescue would mean the season is out of hand. Perhaps Bales thinks he can right the ship with the two, but re-watching games from last season I don't see a whole lot to work with.

Good defense creates good goalies.

 

[Jacob582]

Good defense creates good goalies.

Good Goalies make defensemen look good.

 

[Dreakon13]

Lol what is this

Because the team was/is really bad, that somehow makes it less worse to lose really good players?

It’s not an over the top take. It legitimately is one of the worst trades of the last 10 years.

You're right, if your point is "how bad is the trade". In a vacuum looking purely at value going out and coming in, it's as bad as just about any trade you can find.

If your point is "how will the franchise recover from it"... which is what was being responded to... let me put it this way. Which is more difficult to recover from? Falling from the 1st floor of a building to the ground, or the 100th floor to the ground? I'll give you a hint, the answer is the same regardless of how bad the jump looks.

 

[OkimLom]

This is an over the top take that seems all to common on here. Its not hard to recover from a ROR trade.

You know what’s hard to recover from? Tearing out the heart, leadership, talent and depth of a really good hockey team that won a President’s trophy. Something we managed to do in two offseasons with the Golisano/Quinn contract policies and break even approach of the time.

Losing ROR from one of the worst teams in the NHL (we were a bottom dweller his entire time here) is at best a speed bump in comparison no matter how bad you think the trade is.

Get some perspective people.

To be fair, they did say this decade, which that particular moment you speak of didn’t happen this decade.

 

[Chainshot]

My criticism this off-season of Botterill is he hasn't addressed the goal tending. I just don't see anything in Hutton and Ullmark, and any outside chance of UPL comes to the rescue would mean the season is out of hand. Perhaps Bales thinks he can right the ship with the two, but re-watching games from last season I don't see a whole lot to work with.

Personnel wise, no he hasn’t and that he’s a little bit of a concern. Staff wise getting a new well regarded goaltending coach might be just a thing for this. We’re gonna have to go on hope with that. Even if they just get average goaltending the team will be better.

 

[joshjull]

Lol what is this

Because the team was/is really bad, that somehow makes it less worse to lose really good players?

It’s not an over the top take. It legitimately is one of the worst trades of the last 10 years.

Its a response to this nonsense "...it's hard for a franchise to recover from."

Some posters are so triggered about that trade they liked your post when it didn't even address what I was talking about.

 

[Chainshot]

Good Goalies make defensemen look good.

Good back checking sids defenseman moreso. It would be nice if they got a little bit of all of that for a change. We can hope that mobility in passing that Jason has acquired on the blueline will mean cleaner and more frequent breakouts. But there are definitely some forwards who need to get acquainted with how to work hard on the backcheck to create offensive opportunities. We hear about better gaps all time and it’s a thing: hell Lindy used to talk about it going back to his tenure. It’s basic hockey and something too many of the forwards on this team don’t do.

 

[Chainshot]

Its a response to this nonsense "...it's hard for a franchise to recover from."

In terms of impact? At least on the ice? They seem to still be trying to recover from July 1, 2007. Their centers have not been sufficient.

 

[joshjull]

To be fair, they did say this decade, which that particular moment you speak of didn’t happen this decade.

As I mentioned I wasn't talking about the trade itself but the idea we will have a hard time recovering from it.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

Its a response to this nonsense "...it's hard for a franchise to recover from."

Some posters are so triggered about that trade they liked your post when it didn't even address what I was talking about.

I'm not sure why July 2007 was even brought up. He wasn't comparing the ROR trade to that, simply stating how much the trade set the team back. Pluck one of the top 1 or 2 best players off any team out of their lineup and it will set them back, especially when it's a center. It's not necessary to reply with "but losing the co-caps was worse." Obviously it was.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

The only thing that will kill us is another crappy coach. Which is what killed us with and without ROR the last two seasons.

Housley being terrible is also independent of the impact of the ROR trade. Thats akin to the weak "we lost with him and we lost without him" argument. Obviously Housley was terrible for the team. Keeping ROR and firing Housley, both of these would make the team better.

 

[Snippit]

Its a response to this nonsense "...it's hard for a franchise to recover from."

Some posters are so triggered about that trade they liked your post when it didn't even address what I was talking about.

It has been and will continue to be difficult to recover from that trade.

The current hole at 2C is a direct consequence.

 

[joshjull]

In terms of impact? At least on the ice? They seem to still be trying to recover from July 1, 2007. Their centers have not been sufficient.

That's a big part of it.

But its also about how Golisano/Quinn's overall approach impacted every aspect of the franchise and crippled us for years.

1) Their contract policies coming out of the lockout decimated one of the best and deepest teams in the NHL. Those policies also managed to lose an entire leadership core in two off-seasons; Briere, Drury, McKee, Grier and I'd even throw Dumont in there as he matured in his final year here.

2) They were about breaking even every year. So bottoming out after all that talent left to rebuild was never in the cards. Also all trades were at best dollar for dollar so that was also a hard road to rebuild talent. So we were stuck on treadmill of mediocrity after the co-captains left.

3) They were about doing everything as cheap as possible so the scouting department was cut to bare bones and the infamous video scouting replaced it. Farm team was basically ignored or shared. Investment in development wasn't even a thought.

They managed to simultaneously decimate the overall talent while also crippling the two likely paths to rebuild the talent pool (#2+3).

We are still digging out from the impact of these decisions/polices. Pegula bought a team that was a shell of what a good NHL franchise should be from top to bottom. We've been living through him trying to figure out what to do about it and who to hire as he muddles along as an owner. I'm hoping in Botts a lot of the infrastructure of the franchise is brought up to where it needs to be while he works out the NHL roster.

But in the context of the above, the fallout/impact of the Golisano/Quinn tenure makes the ROR trade look like a speed bump.

Maybe some of these posters are too young to remember this stuff thus think ROR leaving is the end of the world.