Jason Botterill Discussion 2

[Chainshot]

How about someone who knows who the good players on his team are who play the ****ING POSITION HE WENT TO THE HALL OF FAME FOR PLAYING?

Is...is that too much? Am I asking for something impossible here?

Being able to recognize and play one's best players seems like basic competency, something Phil has failed at and Botts has allowed to continue.

 

[OkimLom]

I wasn't a fan of what he was doing candidly but what is telling is that Botterill is about a 180 from Murray so the Pegulas had a total change of opinion within 4 years.

Lafontaine picked Murray and now people are saying Kim ousted Lafontaine and Murray? Where did people get the Pegula/Lafontaine thing? I missed that one.

I was a fan of what Murray initially wanted to do. Bylsma has Pegulas ear and the team went to a new direction with the plan. Then Pegula couldn’t handle a guy who wouldn’t fire the head coach(for the record I wanted him gone) when he wanted, as the GM was still looking at the long term, and gone he went.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Guhle, Lemieux, Borgen, Olofsson, in addition to Reinhart and Eichel -- not all bricks.

He traded away Lemieux. And I'm not ready to call Guhle and Borgen full time NHL contributors yet. They might be sure. He had a lot of picks to work with, it was supposed to rebuild the team. That it didn't, did him no favors.

 

[OkimLom]

Pat said something that didn't sit well with Terry/Kim was the rumbling, so he was allowed to resign just like a bunch of other executives in their enterprises have.

I think Pat took issue with trading Miller, something Murray felt was necessary, Murray pretty much received full support from the Pegulas, which Pat felt his purpose and job was overlooked and Murray overstepped his authority that usually comes with his positions.

Unfortunately, with the Pegulas, the head coach and GM have the same access to the owner, which could end up in a mess, if GM and coach have a difference of opinion.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I didn't miss the point, if you would have paid attention to the sarcasm emoji sitting in the middle of the whole post, though I suppose it should be at the end of the sentence.

Berglund was also a bad deal regardless of him quitting on the team.

Again, collecting multiple bad short term deals is bad, especially since Botts hasn't collected anything resembling quality assets for those terrible short term deals.

If they happen to generally expire before ONE bad deal, which is mostly bad early because of injury/concussion/whatever, does not make the whole better.

It's also an incredibly stupid plan of action, who gives a **** when the other GM's longest deal ends? None of them were keeping Botts from making moves to compete.

The repeated point is Botts Bad. This does not mean Murray Good. All it means is the Sabres still suck.

Sheary was quality, Scandella WAS quality. I agree saying Botts sucks doesn't mean Murray was good. Their plans are entirely different, polar opposites though. To get hyper angry over a plan that is supposed to take time to develop is just venting over an already inflamed state of impatience.

I NEVER get an answer when I ask what posters think Botterill was supposed to do instead? "Get better guys now" is the easy nothing answer. Who and for what???

 

[flashsabre]

The ROR trade aside, some of the stipulations that Botts agrees to are just puzzling.

Taking on Hunwick's contract in the Sheary deal and then agreeing that if Hunwick's is traded by the Sabres there is a penalty. why? So stupid.

And the Montour deal with the the juggling of 1sts depending on where the Blues end up.

It just looks like a young GM getting taken advantage of.

 

[SabresFan26]

Pat said something that didn't sit well with Terry/Kim was the rumbling, so he was allowed to resign just like a bunch of other executives in their enterprises have.

Thanks. Wonder what he would've said? Amazing you hire someone to come in and make a huge hire to impact the future only to have them resign soon after.

 

[sabremike]

Sheary was quality, Scandella WAS quality. I agree saying Botts sucks doesn't mean Murray was good. Their plans are entirely different, polar opposites though. To get hyper angry over a plan that is supposed to take time to develop is just venting over an already inflamed state of impatience.

I NEVER get an answer when I ask what posters think Botterill was supposed to do instead? "Get better guys now" is the easy nothing answer. Who and for what???

Fire the incompetent coach who completely sucks before he could sink our season lower than whale shit???

 

[Chainshot]

Thanks. Wonder what he would've said? Amazing you hire someone to come in and make a huge hire to impact the future only to have them resign soon after.

Amazing that you hire that guy after having dinner with him to do a job he's never done before. So... yeah.

 

[MagnumForce2]

The ROR trade aside, some of the stipulations that Botts agrees to are just puzzling.

Taking on Hunwick's contract in the Sheary deal and then agreeing that if Hunwick's is traded by the Sabres there is a penalty. why? So stupid.

And the Montour deal with the the juggling of 1sts depending on where the Blues end up.

It just looks like a young GM getting taken advantage of.

So true

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Fire the incompetent coach who completely sucks before he could sink our season lower than whale ****???

That is obviously a pending issue. What about the roster?

 

[SabresFan26]

Amazing that you hire that guy after having dinner with him to do a job he's never done before. So... yeah.

They wanted him to be the GM at first right?

 

[Paxon]

I for one am sick of criticism or praise of Botterill being met with praise or criticism of Murray. That will always have its place but can we talk about the good and bad Botterill has done on its own merits even a little bit?

Anyone who thinks he has done a good job so far is delusional. If you think he hasn't done a terrible job so far then that is entirely reasonable. I couldn't care less if someone thinks he is doing a better job than Murray because it just doesn't matter.

For my money, the only thing he has done right, with the benefit of hindsight, is drafting. His drafting thus far looks good. It's too early to say that conclusively, but I'm happy with it.

Two trades I liked at the time (Scandella, Sheary) are not likeable anymore. The Skinner trade might amount to renting a top 6 player for a high 2nd for a team that is in the basement. Or it might result in a bad contract. So, the one trade that looked uniformly positive may well wind up 'meh' at best. The ROR trade, thus far, was one of the worst Sabres trades in my lifetime. I like the Montour deal so far even if a touch rich. The net effect of these moves has left us no better as a team without a real improvement in assets/futures and even more dead weight cap space.

He hired Housley and recently defended him vigorously. Enough said there. But he is allegedly doing a better job than Murray so basically he is killing it. Give me a break.

 

[Paxon]

Throw Rochester in there with the good he has done as well. Taylor is doing a bang up job, the roster is well-formed, etc. And signing Pilut was great.

 

[Ace]

I legit don’t know how people could compare Murray and Botterill and use it to favor Botterill. They’re about to fail to reach the point total that they took over from Murray in two years. He’s worse. By so much. It’s really something.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I think we all can agree that Botterill shouldn't be fired until after he represents us in the draft lottery.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I legit don’t know how people could compare Murray and Botterill and use it to favor Botterill. They’re about to fail to reach the point total that they took over from Murray in two years. He’s worse. By so much. It’s really something.

I have no problem saying they both are/were terrible.

But I do think Botterill should get another offseason.

 

[Chainshot]

Sheary was quality, Scandella WAS quality. I agree saying Botts sucks doesn't mean Murray was good. Their plans are entirely different, polar opposites though. To get hyper angry over a plan that is supposed to take time to develop is just venting over an already inflamed state of impatience.

I NEVER get an answer when I ask what posters think Botterill was supposed to do instead? "Get better guys now" is the easy nothing answer. Who and for what???

Setting aside how Botterill cratered his current lineup with the O'Reilly deal...

From last season, the waiver wire guys who were appreciably better than various members of the Sabres last year...

Confirmed with Link: - Jason Botterill: it's a situation where he is the new General Manager -- MOD WARNING #1851

Roster Speculation '17-'18: Someone, Somewhere, In Summertime

Then there are current players like Brassard or Sheahan who both were available and went in different trades for a song, both are substantially better players than Sobotka. Andrew Cogliano is also better than Sobotka at just about everything. Drake Caggiula was jettisoned from the Oilers, he's an effective speedy depth winger who could also force bums like Sobotka, Elie and even Okposo into the pressbox. Josh Leivo went for essentially nothing, he's an effective 3rd line LW.

Nate Thompson is an effective 4th liner, went for next to nothing. Jordan Weal? Same thing.

Waivers this year? Dmitri Jaskin over Remi Elie is an easy one. Marco Dano, Jacob Delarose...

 

[BananaSquad]

I have no problem saying they both are/were terrible.

But I do think Botterill should get another offseason.

If he fires Housley

 

[Chainshot]

They wanted him to be the GM at first right?

Yes, and then to hire a GM... neither are jobs he has ever done before. That and the fanboying over Regier and Ruff when he first bought the team are early indicators that he doesn't have a solid grasp on what it takes to install a quality front office.

 

[Chainshot]

I think we all can agree that Botterill shouldn't be fired until after he represents us in the draft lottery.

I have no issue handing him a pinkslip today and not worrying about the draft. That scouting and the lists have basically already been done and can be carried out by the next schmoe who comes in, much like Botterill did when he first arrived and is louded for in 2017, even if most of those guys who did the grunt work are now gone.

 

[GameMisconduct]

Yes, and then to hire a GM... neither are jobs he has ever done before. That and the fanboying over Regier and Ruff when he first bought the team are early indicators that he doesn't have a solid grasp on what it takes to install a quality front office.

They definitely need to go outside of the former Sabre/Pittsburgh tree. That will be a huge start.

They have tried different things and are willing to spend $$$, but they really need to get the people right.

Edit: And whatever the criticisms are of hiring Botteril, and whatever good things you might want to argue he's done along the way, he is the one steering the ship now and it's clearly sinking.

 

[Chainshot]

I just tried to write a post that looked at how I would like to see Botterill, if he's retained, actually start to do things well. And I realized that I have no quarter for him. He's burned me up and I have no space to give him further opportunities. He's made too many mistakes for me to trust that he's going to suddenly change in terms of his talent evaluation or coaching hires or how he manages his roster to think that is going to happen.

In short, I have no hope for him.

And with that, I dread the damage he has done and will do as he tries to save his job.

 

[kirby11]

We've been shut out 4 or 5 times since early March alone and Botts is gonna have either the ignorance or the balls to talk about progress at the end of the year presser

 

[OkimLom]

I for one am sick of criticism or praise of Botterill being met with praise or criticism of Murray. That will always have its place but can we talk about the good and bad Botterill has done on its own merits even a little bit?

Anyone who thinks he has done a good job so far is delusional. If you think he hasn't done a terrible job so far then that is entirely reasonable. I couldn't care less if someone thinks he is doing a better job than Murray because it just doesn't matter.

For my money, the only thing he has done right, with the benefit of hindsight, is drafting. His drafting thus far looks good. It's too early to say that conclusively, but I'm happy with it.

Two trades I liked at the time (Scandella, Sheary) are not likeable anymore. The Skinner trade might amount to renting a top 6 player for a high 2nd for a team that is in the basement. Or it might result in a bad contract. So, the one trade that looked uniformly positive may well wind up 'meh' at best. The ROR trade, thus far, was one of the worst Sabres trades in my lifetime. I like the Montour deal so far even if a touch rich. The net effect of these moves has left us no better as a team without a real improvement in assets/futures and even more dead weight cap space.

He hired Housley and recently defended him vigorously. Enough said there. But he is allegedly doing a better job than Murray so basically he is killing it. Give me a break.

Things he’s done right:
- Did what was necessary talent-wise to get Dahlin.
- Brought over Taylor for Rochester
- traded for first dibs to re-sign Skinner (1/2 credit since that isn’t done yet)
- Signed Pilut

Things he’ll get credit for but feel was done by others:
- 2017 Draft. Used Murray’s guys IIRC for the draft.
- 2018 Draft, outside Dahlin, only piece that I’m a little excited for is Pekar because he’s unique to the pipeline.

IMO, it’s tough to say he’s doing a better job in terms of building a team when we haven’t seen what the his idea of what kind of players they want here. He’s done the very minimum in overturning the roster. Those that he has overturned on the roster with are not of any starting quality. Right now, I’d say it’s a work in progress, it’s part of the reason why I’m okay giving him 2 more years, depending on what he does this offseason. If there is not a focus on changing the attitude on the ice and in the room, and a change of the bench (which could do all this in one shot depending on the hire), then his time for me is up at the end of next season. I’m not even asking for an improvement of talent, just change what it means to be a Buffalo Sabre. We need some pride.