Post-Game Talk: Jarry, GMR, and CODY CECI bring their "A" game!

[canadianguy77]

If you watched the game you'd know what effect Malkin's line had tonight. Stats don't tell that tale.

I did watch the game and they had a handful of solid shifts and created some chances. Not like that could ever happen with 87 in the middle of those 2 right?

 

[Ryder71]

You're missing the philosophical point. Guentzel - Malkin - Rust is the best line we can ice. We should ice it. Tampa's best line they can ice is Palat - Point - Kucherov. Boston's best line is Marchand - Bergeron - Pasta.

They ice the best line.

I agree with you here 100%. GMR should stay together. Hopefully Sully will wise up. That or he get fired. Either way.

 

[Gurglesons]

I did watch the game and they had a handful of solid shifts and created some chances. Not like that could ever happen with 87 in the middle of those 2 right?

It can happen with 87. That isn't the issue here or the woe is Malkin narrative that people want to spin.

The fact is Guentzel - Malkin - Rust gives us the best chance to win and Sullivan stubbornly doesn't use it for reasons beyond anyone's grasp.

Go back to Bowman with Yzerman. Crosby can be a hell of an effective player. But he is still a cog in the machine. The team is potentially better suited with him as a "3rd line" role center versus Malkin as a 2nd line center with bad line mates and McCann on wing.

A great coach would make that modification. Crosby isn't the type of player to not buy into it and it's not like Crosby needs to get "3rd line" minutes. Just use him differently.

 

[Ryder71]

I did watch the game and they had a handful of solid shifts and created some chances. Not like that could ever happen with 87 in the middle of those 2 right?

GMR is better though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You're missing the philosophical point. Guentzel - Malkin - Rust is the best line we can ice. We should ice it. Tampa's best line they can ice is Palat - Point - Kucherov. Boston's best line is Marchand - Bergeron - Pasta.

They ice the best line.

Based on what? Because of a strong run last year? Crosby/Guentzel were a line when we won the Cup in 2017 and Guentzel tied the rookie record for goals in a playoffs. Crosby/Guentzel were a combo when Crosby finished 2nd in Hart voting and Guentzel recorded his first and only 40 goal season a couple of years back. Guentzel/Crosby torched Philly and were the only line that showed up versus Washington in 2018.

You're acting like Crosby/Guentzel has no track record and Malkin/Guentzel have years of dominant performances behind them.

You're also ignoring the fact that if you go with that line -- WHICH I SAID I DON'T EVEN CARE IF THEY DO -- then you're getting very little out of Crosby's line.

So you're not really fixing anything since we'll either be relying on Crosby's line with Guentzel to carry us or Malkin's line with Guentzel to carry us. The problem you're ignoring is we're not going to be a 2-line team until they add a winger who can play with whichever center doesn't have Guentel that can do the stuff Guentzel does that our current wingers can't.

 

[Gurglesons]

Based on what? Because of a strong run last year? Crosby/Guentzel were a line when we won the Cup in 2017 and Guentzel tied the rookie record for goals in a playoffs. Crosby/Guentzel were a combo when Crosby finished 2nd in Hart voting and Guentzel recorded his first and only 40 goal season a couple of years back. Guentzel/Crosby torched Philly and were the only line that showed up versus Washington in 2018.

You're acting like Crosby/Guentzel has no track record and Malkin/Guentzel have years of dominant performances behind them.

You're also ignoring the fact that if you go with that line -- WHICH I SAID I DON'T EVEN CARE IF THEY DO -- then you're getting very little out of Crosby's line.

So you're not really fixing anything since we'll either be relying on Crosby's line with Guentzel to carry us or Malkin's line with Guentzel to carry us. The problem you're ignoring is we're not going to be a 2-line team until they add a winger who can play with whichever center doesn't have Guentel that can do the stuff Guentzel does that our current wingers can't.

Yes. But, then you leave Malkin floundering. Crosby can play a more complete game that is not as driven by offense and emotion versus Malkin trying to play that game.

Here is the hypothetical I proposed in the GDT.

Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Blueger - Crosby - ZAR
Tanev - McCann - Kapanen
who cares - who cares - who cares.

You use Crosby as your checking line with Blueger and ZAR and he'll succeed in that role because he is willing to do what he can to win.

You have your all offense line with Malkin and you have a 3rd line that can be used in offensive situations like Tampa used the Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman line.

When Zucker comes back you pin him with Crosby and you work on finding a RW at the deadline or hope someone fits in there.

The very point you made is why we fail. Sullivan thinks Guentzel and Crosby are going to perform at the same level they did in 16-17 and 17-18. And they COULD. But that isn't what is best for the team right now.

These are the type of radical coaching decisions WINNING coaches make. They don't throw all their eggs in one line baskets and hope it works out.

 

[Gurglesons]

Going back to the Tampa point. Cooper took f***ing likely HHOF Steven Stamkos out of his center position to put him on wing with a 40 pt center in Cirelli and we can't play Guentzel and Rust with Malkin because Crosby is also good with Guentzel and Rust.

This team is a better team when you have Guentzel - Malkin - Rust as the top dog offensively. We've seen it for a better part of a year now. If we want to put our heads in the sand and act like Crosby is the Lynch pin of our entire team and everything starts and dies with him that's fine. But don't surprised when nothing else works when everything is catered towards him because he isn't 27 anymore.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yes. But, then you leave Malkin floundering. Crosby can play a more complete game that is not as driven by offense and emotion versus Malkin trying to play that game.

Here is the hypothetical I proposed in the GDT.

Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Blueger - Crosby - ZAR
Tanev - McCann - Kapanen
who cares - who cares - who cares.

You use Crosby as your checking line with Blueger and ZAR and he'll succeed in that role because he is willing to do what he can to win.

You have your all offense line with Malkin and you have a 3rd line that can be used in offensive situations like Tampa used the Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman line.

When Zucker comes back you pin him with Crosby and you work on finding a RW at the deadline or hope someone fits in there.

The very point you made is why we fail. Sullivan thinks Guentzel and Crosby are going to perform at the same level they did in 16-17 and 17-18. And they COULD. But that isn't what is best for the team right now.

These are the type of radical coaching decisions WINNING coaches make. They don't throw all their eggs in one line baskets and hope it works out.

What part of Crosby's performance over the past two years suggests he's willing or able to assume a purely checking role?

The only times he's looked vintage dominant Crosby is when he's feeling it offensively with two good wingers on his line.

I think it's wishful thinking to think playing him with ZAR and Blueger (who looks good as a defensive pivot and not on the wing) would bring out the best in Crosby.

 

[Gurglesons]

What part of Crosby's performance over the past two years suggests he's willing or able to assume a purely checking role?

The only times he's looked vintage dominant Crosby is when he's feeling it offensively with two good wingers on his line.

I think it's wishful thinking to think playing him with ZAR and Blueger (who looks good as a defensive pivot and not on the wing) would bring out the best in Crosby.

Once again. The Pittsburgh Penguins shouldn't be focused on "bringing out the best" in Crosby. They should be focused on winning f***ing hockey games.

If they want to be the Pittsburgh Crosbys that's fine, but don't be surprised when they crash and burn like every year we've focused on making Crosby the best he can be while robbing the rest of the team of any semblance of success.

And what suggests over the past two years we will have any success with Malkin floundering on the 2nd line? We've seen what happens with a mediocre 2nd and 3rd line with GMR for nearly a year now. I imagine Sid is out Thursday. I bet we see the same performance from this team with GMR together again. Because they buy in and play the game how Sullivan wants it to be played and it allows Sully to throw out lines and dictate play. The game was essentially over after the two PKs for those watching it. PIT was back to the 2019 early 2020 Pens who played with an identity and like a team.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Once again. The Pittsburgh Penguins shouldn't be focused on "bringing out the best" in Crosby. They should be focused on winning f***ing hockey games.

If they want to be the Pittsburgh Crosbys that's fine, but don't be surprised when they crash and burn like every year we've focused on making Crosby the best he can be while robbing the rest of the team of any semblance of success.

And your idea for winning hockey games is turning Crosby into a checking line center with ZAR and Blueger on his wing.

I mean, you act like making our team a one line offensive club with GMR carrying all the offense and Crosby morphing into a checker gives us a better chance of winning games than somehow finding wingers for BOTH our centers to actually be potent offensively. That's nuts to me.

 

[Gurglesons]

And your idea for winning hockey games is turning Crosby into a checking line center with ZAR and Blueger on his wing.

I mean, you act like making our team a one line offensive club with GMR carrying all the offense and Crosby morphing into a checker gives us a better chance of winning games than somehow finding wingers for BOTH our centers to actually be potent offensively. That's nuts to me.

With our current injuries? Yes.

Was it nuts when Bowman used Yzerman like that? Was it nuts when Sullivan used Crosby like that in 15-16 while HBK got soft minutes?

I mean, I get it you want Crosby to be the all time best player he always was. But he simply isn't that guy anymore as you said and if he wants this team to be successful he'll assimilate to whatever role is needed. At this point in time with the injuries and roster make-up we have the solution is to run GMR and let the chips fall where they may.

Hopefully you get a RW for him and then Zucker comes back and you can run..

Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Zucker - Crosby - X
Tanev - McCann - Kapanen
ZAR - Bleuger - Rodrigues

Or whatever. And I'm not saying throw Crosby out there with like 20% OZ starts and only against top line competition. We used GMR as the horse. That gives you Crosby behind to exploit the second pairing and second line.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

With our current injuries? Yes.

Was it nuts when Bowman used Yzerman like that? Was it nuts when Sullivan used Crosby like that in 15-16 while HBK got soft minutes?

Yzerman was expected to adopt a more 2-way role, he wasn't given 3rd/4th line linemates and told to be a checker while Bowman stacked the top line with all the offensive guys.

Crosby played with Hornqvist in that 2016 Cup run. Not exactly the most naturally gifted player, but also not friggin' ZAR either.

You're re-writing history to make it sound reasonable that our best chance of winning is turning Crosby into what we have in Blueger rather than actually trying to get the best out of Crosby AND Malkin offensively.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yzerman was expected to adopt a more 2-way role, he wasn't given 3rd/4th line linemates and told to be a checker while Bowman stacked the top line with all the offensive guys.

Crosby played with Hornqvist in that 2016 Cup run. Not exactly the most naturally gifted player, but also not friggin' ZAR either.

You're re-writing history to make it sound reasonable that our best chance of winning is turning Crosby into what we have in Blueger rather than actually trying to get the best out of Crosby AND Malkin offensively.

No I'm not. I'm saying put Crosby in a traditional checking line 2C role that every other team has because he's more apt for it than Malkin at their respective ages.

Maybe the solution is McCann and Rodrigues on Crosby's wings in the 2C hole. Maybe it Blueger and Tanev. I don't know, but taking away the one thing that has brought us success the last year and a half in GMR to hope it works out with Crosby is just asinine in my opinion.

 

[canadianguy77]

Yzerman was expected to adopt a more 2-way role, he wasn't given 3rd/4th line linemates and told to be a checker while Bowman stacked the top line with all the offensive guys.

Crosby played with Hornqvist in that 2016 Cup run. Not exactly the most naturally gifted player, but also not friggin' ZAR either.

You're re-writing history to make it sound reasonable that our best chance of winning is turning Crosby into what we have in Blueger rather than actually trying to get the best out of Crosby AND Malkin offensively.

They contributed 1 goal at even strength tonight against Philly in the first home game that had some actual fans in the seats for the first time in a calendar year.

Never have us Pittsburgh fans been treated to such dominance. It was like there were 3 McDavids out there.

 

[Gurglesons]

They contributed 1 goal at even strength tonight against Philly in the first home game that had some actual fans in the seats for the first time in a calendar year.

Never have us Pittsburgh fans been treated to such dominance. It was like there were 3 McDavids out there.

I question if you watched the game if you didn't get excited every time Guentzel - Malkin - Rust was out there. We haven't seen a line like that in years.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No I'm not. I'm saying put Crosby in a traditional checking line 2C role that every other team has because he's more apt for it than Malkin at their respective ages.

Maybe the solution is McCann and Rodrigues on Crosby's wings in the 2C hole. Maybe it Blueger and Tanev. I don't know, but taking away the one thing that has brought us success the last year and a half in GMR to hope it works out with Crosby is just asinine in my opinion.

I feel like you're missing my bigger point. I've said multiple times now I'm not against putting Guentel and Rust with Malkin. Multiple times.

What I'm saying is I don't think the construction of our winger group is such that we have enough playmaking/creative guys to fully maximize both Crosby and Malkin. My issue with what you're saying isn't even that we shouldn't keep GMR together, but that you seem to think we have multiple wingers who are good playmakers that could do for Crosby what Guentzel does.

In any case, if they run with GMR that's fine. Just don't expect Crosby's line to be overly effective offensively on nights when Crosby isn't absolutely lights out.

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like you're missing my bigger point. I've said multiple times now I'm not against putting Guentel and Rust with Malkin. Multiple times.

What I'm saying is I don't think the construction of our winger group is such that we have enough playmaking/creative guys to fully maximize both Crosby and Malkin. My issue with what you're saying isn't even that we shouldn't keep GMR together, but that you seem to think we have multiple wingers who are good playmakers that could do for Crosby what Guentzel does.

In any case, if they run with GMR that's fine. Just don't expect Crosby's line to be overly effective offensively on nights when Crosby isn't absolutely lights out.

Yes. That is why I'm putting Crosby in a traditional checking role and looking for a RW to balance out whoever works on his LW.

Crosby doesn't need to be overly effective offensively on most nights if he is out possessing the other team and filling the traditional 2C checking role. Hell, that is what won us a cup in 15/16.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I question if you watched the game if you didn't get excited every time Guentzel - Malkin - Rust was out there. We haven't seen a line like that in years.

For the record, their "numbers" weren't that dominant tonight. Crosby with Guentzel and Rust had nights this season similar to GMR tonight, but people held it against Crosby that they only came away with 1 point or whatever.

The dominant line tonight on both the scoreboard and analytics was the Tanev/McCann/Kapanen line. 3 goals for, zero against, and dominated all the CF%, FF%, SF%, SCF% and HDCF% categories.

 

[canadianguy77]

I question if you watched the game if you didn't get excited every time Guentzel - Malkin - Rust was out there. We haven't seen a line like that in years.

You don’t need to question it. I, unlike you, watch every game.

But yeah, you’re right. Crosby needs to be on the 3rd line in checking center role now because GMR had a handful of scoring chances and contributed a single ES goal against Philly in the first game with fans in the seats.

Every single shift they were just peppering Hart with shots and never spent a single second in their own zone because they were just so dominant. It was like men against boys out there. Sure. Get a grip on reality man.

 

[Gurglesons]

For the record, their "numbers" weren't that dominant tonight. Crosby with Guentzel and Rust had nights this season similar to GMR tonight, but people held it against Crosby that they only came away with 1 point or whatever.

The dominant line tonight on both the scoreboard and analytics was the Tanev/McCann/Kapanen line. 3 goals for, zero against, and dominated all the CF%, FF%, SF%, SCF% and HDCF% categories.

You don’t need to question it. I, unlike you, watch every game.

But yeah, you’re right. Crosby needs to be on the 3rd line in checking center role now because GMR had a handful of scoring chances and contributed a single ES goal against Philly in the first game with fans in the seats.

Every single shift they were just peppering Hart with shots and never spent a single second in their own zone because they were just so dominant. It was like men against boys out there. Sure. Get a grip on reality man.

If you guys want to write tonight off to just the crowd or analytics that's on you.

I've seen enough of GMR and what it means to forcing this team to commit to what Sullivan wants from us systematically to know it is a key.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If you guys want to write tonight off to just the crowd or analytics that's on you.

I've seen enough of GMR and what it means to forcing this team to commit to what Sullivan wants from us systematically to know it is a key.

I'm not "writing off" anything. They had a strong game.

My points are:
1-It still only resulted in 1 point for Malkin. You're talking about a level of dominance that you'd expect that line to have a 4 or 5 point night from.

2-When Crosby was with Rust and Guentzel some people were poo-pooing the fact that even though they dominated analytically, the production wasn't that impressive. So I'm pointing out that as much as you're talking that line up, it still only resulted in one ES goal.

I mean, the second point is the entire argument a lot of people are making about moving Guentzel off Crosby's line. "LOL so what if they are tilting the ice with possession numbers? They're not exactly producing a lot". Well, the GMR line was EXACTLY what people criticized Crosby/Guentzel for -- a lot of possession dominance with only marginal actual production to show for it.

 

[BHD]

It comes down to whether you want to unleash Guentzel/Crosby while Malkin's line is "meh", or... get more out of Malkin's line, even if it takes away from #87. Jake and Sid are so good that I'd stick with them, and leave next Rust to Geno. Besides, if Crosby is your #1C, then it would be best for him to have at least one of them.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You don’t need to question it. I, unlike you, watch every game.

But yeah, you’re right. Crosby needs to be on the 3rd line in checking center role now because GMR had a handful of scoring chances and contributed a single ES goal against Philly in the first game with fans in the seats.

Every single shift they were just peppering Hart with shots and never spent a single second in their own zone because they were just so dominant. It was like men against boys out there. Sure. Get a grip on reality man.

Inclined to agree. It was a good night for them, but they're not blowing the doors off or anything yet. It's possible they will in the future. But it was just one goal at the end of the night.

Actually Kapanen's line are credited with much better numbers than the 1st line. High danger chances 5-0.
2 goals. 56% corsi for all 3 of them, highest on the team. They were outstanding.
Frustrating to see Kap only with 14:20 TOI tonight. That's 4 mins fewer than Blueger who is in a rough patch right now. Less than Lafferty... Get him on the PK, damnit!

Malkin's line about broke even in CF% (Malkin 44.8%, Guentzel 50%, Rust 52%) and shot totals for vs. against, but had a solid edge in scoring chances. Was a good step forward at least. I do think that this is likely the only combination that will work for Malkin and it must be preserved.

Def. not ready to demote Sid to 3C

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not "writing off" anything. They had a strong game.

My points are:
1-It still only resulted in 1 point for Malkin. You're talking about a level of dominance that you'd expect that line to have a 4 or 5 point night from.

2-When Crosby was with Rust and Guentzel some people were poo-pooing the fact that even though they dominated analytically, the production wasn't that impressive. So I'm pointing out that as much as you're talking that line up, it still only resulted in one ES goal.

I mean, the second point is the entire argument a lot of people are making about moving Guentzel off Crosby's line. "LOL so what if they are tilting the ice with possession numbers? They're not exactly producing a lot". Well, the GMR line was EXACTLY what people criticized Crosby/Guentzel for -- a lot of possession dominance with only marginal actual production to show for it.

I'm talking about the eye test when it comes to GMR.

They are 200 ft domination. GCR have not been that at any point this year.

 

[Gurglesons]

Inclined to agree. It was a good night for them, but they're not blowing the doors off or anything yet. It's possible they will in the future. But it was just one goal at the end of the night.

Actually Kapanen's line are credited with much better numbers than the 1st line. High danger chances 5-0.
2 goals. 56% corsi for all 3 of them, highest on the team. They were outstanding.
Frustrating to see Kap only with 14:20 TOI tonight. That's 4 mins fewer than Blueger who is in a rough patch right now. Less than Lafferty... Get him on the PK, damnit!

Malkin's line about broke even in CF% (Malkin 44.8%, Guentzel 50%, Rust 52%) and shot totals for vs. against, but had a solid edge in scoring chances. Was a good step forward at least. I do think that this is likely the only combination that will work for Malkin and it must be preserved.

Def. not ready to demote Sid to 3C

Nobody has advocated for Sid to be demoted to 3C. Using Sid in the traditional 2C checking center role is not a demotion. It's playing to our center's strengths.