Player Discussion Jake "Big Tuna" Virtanen | XVII Nikolaj Who...?

[F A N]

This team still has no idea how to deal with prospects that aren't exactly 100% what they expect them to be. Year after year after year, same old ****. The rot starts at the top and goes downhill.

Has player development been a problem for the Canucks under the Linden and Benning regime? Please point to specific examples where a player's development was screwed up to the point the player is likely to never have the NHL career they would have had they been developed differently.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Has player development been a problem for the Canucks under the Linden and Benning regime? Please point to specific examples where a player's development was screwed up to the point the player is likely to never have the NHL career they would have had they been developed differently.

A question that is impossible to answer. We don't know career trajectories in either case. Do you know what Virtanen would have developed into had he played under a pro-prospect coach, rather than WD? No.

McCann, Virtanen and Juolevi all came to camp heavier in each player's d+1 season. That was their training regimen. All three looked slow. Good development?

 

[tantalum]

Yes development is being screwed up by the Benning regime. THEY admitted they screwed up Virtanen’s development his first year. I repeat THEY admitted it. It was apparent to most everyone else at the time.

Last year they did a decent job with him. This year they are doing it again...you don’t find ways to limit icetime to your prospects playing time at this stage of their careers. That’s what they are doing. Especially when rebuilding it makes little sense (of course they aren’t rebuilding...IMO). He should either be playing 12-15 minutes each and every night in the NHL or 20 minutes in the AHL. He should not be scratched except very occassionally and never multiple games. If they are having attitude issues or whatever you give him the Hodgson treatment to build value. This is a 6th overall pick and regardless of what I think about the pick they must turn it into the best asset possible. Nearly every step of the way they have not been doing that.

And that’s not to say that Virtanen doesn’t share blame as he does. He took awhile to take things seriously but it looked like that part clicked sometime over the last year.

 

[Peter10]

Has player development been a problem for the Canucks under the Linden and Benning regime? Please point to specific examples where a player's development was screwed up to the point the player is likely to never have the NHL career they would have had they been developed differently.

 

[LordBacon]

Kid's confidence is probably at its lowest point. Its almost like management intends to mess up his development.
He worked hard in the summer and came into camp with good shape and good will. But now all I see is a kid that has no idea why he isnt being played and lost the will to fight. Jake might not have been the best pick at 6/OA but im pretty sure he can be a succesful middle six player for the team, he just needs a longer leash. Let the kid play!!
(English isnt my first language so I apologize in advance if I messed up the grammer and spacing too bad lol)

 

[sting101]

Yes development is being screwed up by the Benning regime. THEY admitted they screwed up Virtanen’s development his first year. I repeat THEY admitted it. It was apparent to most everyone else at the time.

Last year they did a decent job with him. This year they are doing it again...you don’t find ways to limit icetime to your prospects playing time at this stage of their careers. That’s what they are doing. Especially when rebuilding it makes little sense (of course they aren’t rebuilding...IMO). He should either be playing 12-15 minutes each and every night in the NHL or 20 minutes in the AHL. He should not be scratched except very occassionally and never multiple games. If they are having attitude issues or whatever you give him the Hodgson treatment to build value. This is a 6th overall pick and regardless of what I think about the pick they must turn it into the best asset possible. Nearly every step of the way they have not been doing that.

And that’s not to say that Virtanen doesn’t share blame as he does. He took awhile to take things seriously but it looked like that part clicked sometime over the last year.

This is a good post and reasonable.

i would only add that if the plan is to take a couple months to teach him to move his feet and stay aggressive then i'm ok with that. I see both sides ,Jake does too much standing around and too many fly bye's

 

[Gaunce4gm]

Had a monster game today. To bad he was out there for OT/SO.

 

[BerSTUzzi]

The twins constantly forced Jake to make tight turns and slow his feet. He was thinking way too much with them.

Clearly we saw with two line mates that move in one direction, and hound the puck, promotes his type of game. Hopefully the line sticks together.

 

[Pip]

Has player development been a problem for the Canucks under the Linden and Benning regime? Please point to specific examples where a player's development was screwed up to the point the player is likely to never have the NHL career they would have had they been developed differently.

Nikita Tryamkin?

 

[DomY]

I will admit that I haven't watched much Canucks hockey in the previous two seasons, but I've watched a fair bit this year.

I was wondering why Jake isn't being deployed in a similar way as Ovechkin in Washington. He should be lining up at LW, charging into the offensive zone and hitting everything and shooting every time he gets the puck. He is not a smart enough player to drive offensive with creativity, but he has the physical tools to be a threat if he gets the puck in a shooting position.

I guess the problem is that Vancouver lacks gifted playmakers other than Henrik. I would try a line of Virtanen-Henrik-Eriksson, or Virtanen-Granlund-Vanek and just fire pucks at the net from everywhere.

 

[TheOtherGM]

Has Virtanen ever clicked with any linemate?
I ask that honestly because it always seems to be, 'try Jake with player x' or 'try Jake with player y,' and even dating back to his days with the Hitmen he just doesn't seem to be a player who plays well with others.
He's a square puzzle piece and the rest of the roster is round holes.

Such a fantastic toolbox though. That shot to beat Lundqvist, wow. There has to be some way to make this work.

 

[Peen]

Has Virtanen ever clicked with any linemate?
I ask that honestly because it always seems to be, 'try Jake with player x' or 'try Jake with player y,' and even dating back to his days with the Hitmen he just doesn't seem to be a player who plays well with others.
He's a square puzzle piece and the rest of the roster is round holes.

Such a fantastic toolbox though. That shot to beat Lundqvist, wow. There has to be some way to make this work.

He'll always play the game one way, and one way only - a guy with tunnel vision who will play his own game on any line he plays on. Best option (imo) is to put him on a line with two other players who already have chemistry, that will let him play his own game.

Yesterday he had one of those games where you go "Wow, why can't he do this every game?" Maybe he just doesn't have that drive to go every game... maybe it will take him five years, or maybe he'll never never get it. Who knows?

 

[Raistlin]

I dont remember, but what was Bertuzzi's problem when he was first traded here from NYI? how was he in NYI? was it a lazyiness problem? figuring out how to use his toolset? not coachable? what was it? I wonder if Jake has similar problems... Power forwards always take time, whether its Neely, Bert or Kane, was it a shared deficiency though?

 

[Diamonddog01]

Has player development been a problem for the Canucks under the Linden and Benning regime? Please point to specific examples where a player's development was screwed up to the point the player is likely to never have the NHL career they would have had they been developed differently.

It appears to be a mixed bag, like most franchises around the league.

On the one hand:

Juolevi
McCann
Virtanen

On the other (ie players who seem to be developing well, or have shown improvement over the last season or two, under this regime):

Hutton
Horvat
Baertschi
Boeser

TBD

Gaunce
Goldobin
Stetcher (played well last year, seems to have stalled or regressed this year)

Keeping Virtanen and McCann was clearly a mistake, and certainly affected their development imo. Overall it doesn't appear the team 'screws up' our prospect's development more or less than most teams. And the player has to bear some responsibility for their development as well.

 

[WhiteCurse]

Hoping Jake can turn it up a little bit, would be nice if he could end the season around the 30 point mark.

 

[DomY]

Has Virtanen ever clicked with any linemate?
I ask that honestly because it always seems to be, 'try Jake with player x' or 'try Jake with player y,' and even dating back to his days with the Hitmen he just doesn't seem to be a player who plays well with others.
He's a square puzzle piece and the rest of the roster is round holes.

Such a fantastic toolbox though. That shot to beat Lundqvist, wow. There has to be some way to make this work.

This is very true. I would liken him to Kessel in that way, as a shoot first player with no real "chemistry" with any players in his career but has been an effective player throughout. If you put Virtanen on a line with a Hornqvist and Bonino I am sure Jake would be a high-scoring passenger on that line like Kessel, with bonus added grit.

The closest thing to this that we could build with the current configuration is Virtanen-Gagner-Eriksson which I think could be effective if Gagner pulls up his socks a bit. Or you know...wait for Pettersson...

 

[Nomobo]

I dont remember, but what was Bertuzzi's problem when he was first traded here from NYI? how was he in NYI? was it a lazyiness problem? figuring out how to use his toolset? not coachable? what was it? I wonder if Jake has similar problems... Power forwards always take time, whether its Neely, Bert or Kane, was it a shared deficiency though?

Bertuzzi had the hands to go with his size, Jake has hands of stone and no hockey IQ.
I'm not hopeful that he'll amount to anything more than a third liner....if we're lucky.

 

[rune74]

Bertuzzi had the hands to go with his size, Jake has hands of stone and no hockey IQ.
I'm not hopeful that he'll amount to anything more than a third liner....if we're lucky.

Jesus, where do you come up with this stuff? Hands of stone? No Hockey IQ?

 

[TruGr1t]

Virtanen does have serious on-ice awareness problems (whether you want to classify that as "Hockey IQ," or whatever), which is often attributed to him taking shots from low-percentage areas in the offensive zone. He doesn't seem to have the awareness (we used to call say "it looks like the puck follows the guy around") that allows him to stay ahead of the play.

It looks like he'll always be a very north-south player that has capped offensive upside in the NHL due to limitations in how he processes the game. Perhaps the best bet is to turn him into a high-level PK, checking specialist that uses his speed to limit scoring chances against, while generating 10-15 goals.

Actually, I'll have to take a look at it, but Virtanen's upside may very well look like Brandon Sutter at wing.

 

[TheOtherGM]

Bertuzzi had the hands to go with his size, Jake has hands of stone and no hockey IQ.
I'm not hopeful that he'll amount to anything more than a third liner....if we're lucky.

Different players entirely. Todd is the last player I think of when I watch Jake play. Well, maybe Cliff Ronning is the last player, but then Todd.

 

[Nomobo]

Jesus, where do you come up with this stuff? Hands of stone? No Hockey IQ?

Did you watch Bertuzzi play? Virtanen has one play, barge down the wing and shoot from an impossible angle. Bertuzzi was a handful in front of the net and could dangle with the best of them, I don't see the resemblance to Jake at all.

 

[vancityluongo]

Virtanen does have serious on-ice awareness problems (whether you want to classify that as "Hockey IQ," or whatever), which is often attributed to him taking shots from low-percentage areas in the offensive zone. He doesn't seem to have the awareness (we used to call say "it looks like the puck follows the guy around") that allows him to stay ahead of the play.

It looks like he'll always be a very north-south player that has capped offensive upside in the NHL due to limitations in how he processes the game. Perhaps the best bet is to turn him into a high-level PK, checking specialist that uses his speed to limit scoring chances against, while generating 10-15 goals.

Actually, I'll have to take a look at it, but Virtanen's upside may very well look like Brandon Sutter at wing.

Sutter is a twig, but yeah. Jake could have a role as a bulkier Carl Hagelin.

 

[Nomobo]

Different players entirely. Todd is the last player I think of when I watch Jake play. Well, maybe Cliff Ronning is the last player, but then Todd.

Agreed, I don't get the comparison.

 

[TheOtherGM]

Agreed, I don't get the comparison.

Having said that, I only agree with half of your assessment. Jake doesn't have hands of stone. He doesn't have the mitts that Todd did, but hands of stone is inaccurate.
I could buy into Jake's hockey IQ issues to a point, but I don't think he's completely deficient there either.

 

[TruGr1t]

Sutter is a twig, but yeah. Jake could have a role as a bulkier Carl Hagelin.

Yeah, Virtanen certainly has a greater physical upside in terms of becoming a very good checker. I was more referring to the offensive upside. They both seem to be capped due to relatively low on-ice intelligence.

Hagelin is probably a good comparable, but there are tons of these guys around the league. Disappointing outcome for a high first round pick, for sure. Just have to hope he has some level of NHL career at this point.