Player Discussion Jake "Big Tuna" Virtanen | XVII Nikolaj Who...?

[rune74]

There is some disconnect in where Jake actually takes his shots from, there is an interesting article where it shows where his shots do come from, he is more all over the ice with them.

I don't see hands of stone what so ever, I can see some hockey sense issues, but he also does good passes.

The Provies: Virtanen’s Day Off, Green’s blender, and the great goalie competition heats up

I think it's a common misconception to say that all his shots come off the rush. What he could work on though is concentrating his shots from a more high percentage area.

 

[TheOtherGM]

Another thing with Bertuzzi is, that guy did some stupid s--t.
I wouldn't cite him as a paragon of hockey IQ.

 

[Nomobo]

Having said that, I only agree with half of your assessment. Jake doesn't have hands of stone. He doesn't have the mitts that Todd did, but hands of stone is inaccurate.
I could buy into Jake's hockey IQ issues to a point, but I don't think he's completely deficient there either.

Compared to Bert he doesn't have the hands or the IQ, but let's just see and after all....it is what it is.

 

[TruGr1t]

It's not a new problem either ... this is basically straight from his draft profile:

It’s possible, though unlikely at this stage. Virtanen’s always had a propensity for low percentage shots, even going as far back as his time in junior with the Calgary Hitmen. It relates to his biggest drawback, hockey sense. Virtanen doesn’t really have much. He skates into space and shoots without looking for linemates or room to drive the net. It’s just what he does.

Even if you have a good shot and can "rip it," you need to put yourself into a position to actually use that skill.

Canucks Army is pretty much saying the best way forward is what we're talking about in here: Get him going on the PK and turn him into a good, third-line checker.

 

[TheOtherGM]

There is some disconnect in where Jake actually takes his shots from, there is an interesting article where it shows where his shots do come from, he is more all over the ice with them.

I don't see hands of stone what so ever, I can see some hockey sense issues, but he also does good passes.

The Provies: Virtanen’s Day Off, Green’s blender, and the great goalie competition heats up

I think it's a common misconception to say that all his shots come off the rush. What he could work on though is concentrating his shots from a more high percentage area.

He seems to take a lot of shots from the walls, which is where he ends up when his rushes are stopped.
The goal against the Rangers is an example of how dangerous he could be if he curled off the boards more, used his size and positioning to create space at the hash-marks and in the slot.
Hopefully that's something that gets added to his game as he goes along.

I'd also like to see that No. 18 jersey in front of the opponents' net more often.

 

[TheOtherGM]

Compared to Bert he doesn't have the hands or the IQ, but let's just see and after all....it is what it is.

I see what you did there.

 

[Nomobo]

Virtanen could be a decent crasher and banger that might score 15-20 goals at best. Anyone expecting more is going to be disappointed.

 

[TheOtherGM]

Virtanen could be a decent crasher and banger that might score 15-20 goals at best. Anyone expecting more is going to be disappointed.

A guy like that could be hugely valuable.
A disappointment for his draft slot sure, but if I'm building a playoff team I'll take a Raffi Torres-esque physical force potting 15-20 goals, pop him on the third line and be happy about it.

He's on a 12 goal/24 point pace this season with garbage ice-time, so I'd say he's tracking well to meet your at-best expectations.

 

[Nomobo]

A guy like that could be hugely valuable.
A disappointment for his draft slot sure, but if I'm building a playoff team I'll take a Raffi Torres-esque physical force potting 15-20 goals, pop him on the third line and be happy about it.

Torres was a Canuck killer. Virtanen doesn't have the craziness to play that way. I would be very pumped if Virtanen became a prime Torres.

 

[I am toxic]

OK, I will go against the grain - I think JV is three things

First, he fires the puck from the right side too soon and/or too high - either drive to the net and shoot closer, or shoot low to force a rebound.

Second, he often forgets to move his feet. I believe this is a habit from over a decade of hockey where he could get away with it.

Third, I think his hockey IQ is really good, too good in a way. I think his hockey IQ combined with his skating speed often puts him out of position vis a vis his linemates. I would like to see what he could do with linemates that have the IQ of the Twins, with the footspeed of Hansen. All that video he was watching in Utica with Green was about teaching him to dumb down his game (well, and to move his feet). There. I said it.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

Third, I think his hockey IQ is really good, too good in a way. I think his hockey IQ combined with his skating speed often puts him out of position vis a vis his linemates. I would like to see what he could do with linemates that have the IQ of the Twins, with the footspeed of Hansen. All that video he was watching in Utica with Green was about teaching him to dumb down his game. There. I said it.

 

[krutovsdonut]

i still can't tell if he is more skille or bertuzzi. skille could score a goal like the one against the rangers.

bertuzzi attributes his turning the corner to keenan showing complete confidence in him. it is hard for me to believe that would work with virtanen right now. i see a guy who needs to learn the game incrementally.

 

[Nomobo]

Never thought of Skille but now that you mention it...

 

[I am toxic]

I said something about grain.

 

[F A N]

Bertuzzi is one of the most gifted power forwards to ever play the game. Had Bertuzzi played with even Virtanen's intensity and willingness to play physical at the start of his career Bert would have never been a Canuck and he would be in the hall of fame.

 

[MS]

Bertuzzi is one of the most gifted power forwards to ever play the game. Had Bertuzzi played with even Virtanen's intensity and willingness to play physical at the start of his career Bert would have never been a Canuck and he would be in the hall of fame.

Yeah, Bertuzzi's skill level was off-the-charts and for a time in the spring of 2002 he was the flat-out best hockey player on the planet. There is no comparison to Virtanen.

If Virtanen keeps playing how he is, he's a 10-goal bottom-6 forward. If he can develop a power move to the middle of the ice to actually use his shot in places where it's dangerous, he could score 25 goals in this league.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Look at the numbers Bertuzzi posted in junior and then re-think all comparisons you make to him and Jake Virtanen.

 

[LeftCoast]

Look at the numbers Bertuzzi posted in junior and then re-think all comparisons you make to him and Jake Virtanen.

You realize that Bertuzzi's monster year (54-65-119 in 62 games) in junior was 2 years after he was drafted? If you compare their junior Draft and Draft + 1 years, there is not all that much difference. Todd had more assists and more PPG, but fewer goals than Jake until his Draft + 2 season.

In his draft year Bertuzzi was 27-31-58 in 60 games; Jake went 45-26-71 in 71 games. The big difference was that Todd stayed in the OHL for 2 more seasons and dominated as a 20 year old, then had 4 lack luster seasons split between Long Island and Vancouver before he exploded 1999-00. He was drafted in 1993 - so his break out season was 6 years after his draft. Jake is just in his D+4 season.

 

[Ace101]

You realize that Bertuzzi's monster year (54-65-119 in 62 games) in junior was 2 years after he was drafted? If you compare their junior Draft and Draft + 1 years, there is not all that much difference. Todd had more assists and more PPG, but fewer goals than Jake until his Draft + 2 season.

In his draft year Bertuzzi was 27-31-58 in 60 games; Jake went 45-26-71 in 71 games. The big difference was that Todd stayed in the OHL for 2 more seasons and dominated as a 20 year old, then had 4 lack luster seasons split between Long Island and Vancouver before he exploded 1999-00. He was drafted in 1993 - so his break out season was 6 years after his draft. Jake is just in his D+4 season.

The difference also is Bertuzzi improved consistently. In their draft+1's Bertuzzi had more assists then Jake had points. Even if you adjust that Bertuzzi played 11 more games he scores goals at a higher rate. Going from a .967ppg to a 1.344 ppg in a draft+1 is significantly better than going from 1ppg to a 1.04 ppg (while also having your goal scoring drop from .633gpg to to .42gpg).

I'm not sure why you said Bertuzzi had 4 lack luster seasons before breaking out 39 points in 76 games as a rookie for a late first rounder at the least shows potential. That's as many points as Virtanen has gotten in all his pro games including the AHL. 23 in 64 games was lack luster. When Bertuzzi got traded he to Vancouver he put up 15 points in 22 games. Then the next year 16 points in 32 games. Bertuzzi didn't show he was gonna be one of the best hockey players on the planet but he did consistently show reasons to be optimistic about him.

 

[RobertKron]

You realize that Bertuzzi's monster year (54-65-119 in 62 games) in junior was 2 years after he was drafted? If you compare their junior Draft and Draft + 1 years, there is not all that much difference. Todd had more assists and more PPG, but fewer goals than Jake until his Draft + 2 season.

In his draft year Bertuzzi was 27-31-58 in 60 games; Jake went 45-26-71 in 71 games. The big difference was that Todd stayed in the OHL for 2 more seasons and dominated as a 20 year old, then had 4 lack luster seasons split between Long Island and Vancouver before he exploded 1999-00. He was drafted in 1993 - so his break out season was 6 years after his draft. Jake is just in his D+4 season.

Bertuzzi wasn't in the OHL in his 20yo season. He was in the IHL - and mostly NHL - where he scored 18g and was like 6th on his team in points. How the f*** is that "lack luster" in any way?

 

[CanaFan]

You realize that Bertuzzi's monster year (54-65-119 in 62 games) in junior was 2 years after he was drafted? If you compare their junior Draft and Draft + 1 years, there is not all that much difference. Todd had more assists and more PPG, but fewer goals than Jake until his Draft + 2 season.

In his draft year Bertuzzi was 27-31-58 in 60 games; Jake went 45-26-71 in 71 games. The big difference was that Todd stayed in the OHL for 2 more seasons and dominated as a 20 year old, then had 4 lack luster seasons split between Long Island and Vancouver before he exploded 1999-00. He was drafted in 1993 - so his break out season was 6 years after his draft. Jake is just in his D+4 season.

You do realize Bertuzzi improved his PPG substantially from 0.97 in his draft year to 1.34 in his D+1, right? That’s a very good level of post-draft improvement, similar to what Horvat did in his D+1.

By comparison Jake went from 1.00 to 1.04. That’s well below average for any jr. play and abysmal for a 6th overall pick (whereas Bertuzzi was only taken 23rd).

Bertuzzi’s monster D+2 season was merely the pinnacle of his already impressive progression. Jake’s 13 NHL points don’t stack up all that well in comparison.

 

[garbageteam]

I've heard the likes of Kassian, Lucic and now Virtanen compared to Bertuzzi. Til anyone gets a sniff of a 15 game scoring streak or a 46 goal 97 point campaign while hitting and fighting in their career, they aren't it.

I'd be thrilled if JV became a 20-25 type player that is aggressive and difficult to share the ice against.

 

[tantalum]

I've heard the likes of Kassian, Lucic and now Virtanen compared to Bertuzzi. Til anyone gets a sniff of a 15 game scoring streak or a 46 goal 97 point campaign while hitting and fighting in their career, they aren't it.

I'd be thrilled if JV became a 20-25 type player that is aggressive and difficult to share the ice against.

I'd be thrilled with that as well. It seems a pretty big long shot at this point. He had a good Rangers game but in the last two games has gone back to fly down the wing a take a shoot that has little chance of doing anything. Once last night he actually cut into the slot (I think after a turnover) and I thought "yes that's what he needs to do!" Then he never does it again.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Bertuzzi wasn't in the OHL in his 20yo season. He was in the IHL - and mostly NHL - where he scored 18g and was like 6th on his team in points. How the **** is that "lack luster" in any way?

his stats were considered lackluster at the time. bertuzzi's inconsistent and slow development got him traded and he was seen as a gamble when we traded for him. the key trade piece at the time was mccabe who was the isle's captain.

bertuzzi was a reclamation project with tantalizing upside. then keenan did a keenan on him and we won the trade.

i guess there is a milbury asterix in there somewhere.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Yeah, Linden leaving Vancouver went incredibly well for us. Hopefully we can recapture the feeling soon.