Player Discussion Jack Quinn, RW (8th overall, 2020): Named AHL Rookie of the Year

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truthbluth

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Just shows how dumb that statistical breakdown is. Pronman has no clue. Didn't like him in his draft because he doesn't actually watch games.
Pronman does watch games, and his rankings go away from his models all the time. He had Quinn 16 in 2020, because his skating was still developing, despite the models having him higher.

Stats aren’t dumb because they don’t tell you what you want to hear. They should tel you that Perfetti is due for more points, and potentially that Quinn should regress, a little. Even then, it mostly just says both of those two guys are way too good for the AHL.
 

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By the way, I don’t know if it’s homerism, but Quinn’s goal last night would have beaten any goaltender in the league. Just an absurd release and velocity.
I had to watch that shot several times just to see where it was actually positioned when it went in. You don't see too many guys able to get that kind of velocity with so little wind-up, I'd be curious what the actual speed was on that thing.
 

bert

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Pronman does watch games, and his rankings go away from his models all the time. He had Quinn 16 in 2020, because his skating was still developing, despite the models having him higher.

Stats aren’t dumb because they don’t tell you what you want to hear. They should tel you that Perfetti is due for more points, and potentially that Quinn should regress, a little. Even then, it mostly just says both of those two guys are way too good for the AHL.
The irony of the bolded is palpable. When players go to arbitration do you think they are bringing advanced stats at what 'should' have happend or what actually did. Actually being able to score is part of what makes a player great or average.

By the way, I don’t know if it’s homerism, but Quinn’s goal last night would have beaten any goaltender in the league. Just an absurd release and velocity.

Kinda strange to post this and acknowledge an elite shot after wanting to rely on advanced stat metrics.

I did video for the 67's, Quinns skating was dynamic by the back half of the season. He also was/is noticeably stronger and faster, he was a late bloomer physically. Pronman simply doesnt know what to look for in regards to raw skill. He loves stats thats why he loves small players so much. He has never had to compete in a game, he doesnt know the feeling of playing a playoff series against a heavy player or team. As someone that watched the team and OHL alot that year I had Quinn handily ahead of Rossi. As he projected a more elite package and far more growth to his game and skillset. Anyone that didnt have Quinn in the top 10 probably didnt watch. If they did they need a new job/hobby. He was the best player in the OHL in the second half.
 

truthbluth

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The irony of the bolded is palpable. When players go to arbitration do you think they are bringing advanced stats at what 'should' have happend or what actually did. Actually being able to score is part of what makes a player great or average.
uh....
Headlines: 'Fancy stats' to be used in arbitration - Sportsnet.ca

Kinda strange to post this and acknowledge an elite shot after wanting to rely on advanced stat metrics.

I did video for the 67's, Quinns skating was dynamic by the back half of the season.
Pronman actually wrote about this. I guess you should read the articles and not just the tables on tweets. He had Quinn as a late riser because his skating improved. But, it should also be noted that Corey Pronman is one human and even if he watched 10 hours of film per day, every day, he isn't going to be able to watch every game. As a result, he tends to not have big shifts in his rankings. He acknowledges this. He was actually very high on Quinn.

He also was/is noticeably stronger and faster, he was a late bloomer physically. Pronman simply doesnt know what to look for in regards to raw skill. He loves stats thats why he loves small players so much.
He really doesn't. For a stat guy, he routinely down-ranks players like, for instance, Matthew Savoie because he worries that he won't be able to physically handle the NHL. Size ends up factoring into his rankings quite a bit (more than I think it should)
He has never had to compete in a game, he doesnt know the feeling of playing a playoff series against a heavy player or team. As someone that watched the team and OHL alot that year I had Quinn handily ahead of Rossi. As he projected a more elite package and far more growth to his game and skillset. Anyone that didnt have Quinn in the top 10 probably didnt watch. If they did they need a new job/hobby. He was the best player in the OHL in the second half.
Sure, fine, you watched a lot of 67's games. So Quinn was progressing quite a bit. For every late bloomer like Quinn that continues to progress after the draft, there are 2 or 3 guys like Henrik Borgstrom or Mark Jankowski, where they bloom late, but also peak early. The point of stats isn't that they tell you matter of factly, "Marco Rossi is better than Jack Quinn," and people like me will seem to argue the opposite, but at the root of statistical based argumentation is the idea that nobody can predict the future, and scouts get it wrong half the time or more, because it's incredibly hard to figure out how a player will progress, but stats give you probabilities. And most of the good teams right now are good because they placed a lot of high probability bets. Quinn was a High Risk, high reward. But Rossi and Lundell, imo, were low risk, high reward, which is why I favored them. Again, nobody can predict the future, but the better the stats, the more good bets you can make.
 
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bert

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uh....
Headlines: 'Fancy stats' to be used in arbitration - Sportsnet.ca


Pronman actually wrote about this. I guess you should read the articles and not just the tables on tweets. He had Quinn as a late riser because his skating improved. But, it should also be noted that Corey Pronman is one human and even if he watched 10 hours of film per day, every day, he isn't going to be able to watch every game. As a result, he tends to not have big shifts in his rankings. He acknowledges this. He was actually very high on Quinn.

He really doesn't. For a stat guy, he routinely down-ranks players like, for instance, Matthew Savoie because he worries that he won't be able to physically handle the NHL. Size ends up factoring into his rankings quite a bit (more than I think it should)
Sure, fine, you watched a lot of 67's games. So Quinn was progressing quite a bit. For every late bloomer like Quinn that continues to progress after the draft, there are 2 or 3 guys like Henrik Borgstrom or Mark Jankowski, where they bloom late, but also peak early. The point of stats isn't that they tell you matter of factly, "Marco Rossi is better than Jack Quinn," and people like me will seem to argue the opposite, but at the root of statistical based argumentation is the idea that nobody can predict the future, and scouts get it wrong half the time or more, because it's incredibly hard to figure out how a player will progress, but stats give you probabilities. And most of the good teams right now are good because they placed a lot of high probability bets. Quinn was a High Risk, high reward. But Rossi and Lundell, imo, were low risk, high reward, which is why I favored them. Again, nobody can predict the future, but the better the stats, the more good bets you can make.

I dont like Pronmans lists and I never have I dont think he knows what he is talking about in general, I dont read his content anymore because frankly its not very good. I gave it a shot and simply dont agree with the way he evaluates or his ability to evaluate. This next statement surely wont go over well on these boards but I really do believe you need to have atleast been exposed to the game at a high level. To see what it takes to get to the next level, what works and what doesnt. Not everyone that played or coached etc is a good talent evaluator but for the most part it definitely helps.

As someone that watched Quinn and Rossi I dont agree in regards to high risk, Quinn projected very well at the next level watching his progression as he got bigger and stronger he showed a more elite skill set with more growth. Rossi is/was riskier a player, when a prospect is that small without dynamic skating traditionally rarely succeeds at the next level. His hockey IQ is off the charts but he also gets hurt alot and for a small guy that worries me. Lundell I agree very safe, was crazy how far he dropped in my opinion. Over scouted perhaps?
 

Dirty Dog

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Yea I still strongly disagree that Quinn was a boom/bust pick. A winger who plays a complete game, good defensively, knack for scoring goals…sure he may not hit his goal of a top 6 winger, but he always seemed destined to be a NHLer

Rossi was always more of a boom/bust player (and I’m a Rossi fan and I think he’s going to be a stud). He’s a 5’8 playmaking center…if he’s not driving a scoring line, then what is he going to be doing?
 
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Doug Prishpreed

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Why even bother watching this team. If they somehow ever assembled a competitive team, literally a third of the team would be on IR come playoff time.

It isn't just this season either, it's been a perennial issue -- no one cares much because they aren't competitive anyway, but it can't be a coincidence at this point.
 

Jacob582

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Not sure where Frank Seravalli got his statistics, but this was interesting in one of the articles he wrote:

Statistically, players aged 18 to 21 are far more likely to miss time due to injury in the NHL

I think he meant compared to Juniors...... but I'm fine keeping him in Rochester this season. :thumbu:
 

Matt Ress

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Why even bother watching this team. If they somehow ever assembled a competitive team, literally a third of the team would be on IR come playoff time.

It isn't just this season either, it's been a perennial issue -- no one cares much because they aren't competitive anyway, but it can't be a coincidence at this point.
I doubt Jack Quinn, going into the living dream of his 3rd NHL game, is p***y footing because the team isn't going to make the playoffs.

Definitely sucks double that Quinner is going to miss time.
 

Doug Prishpreed

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I doubt Jack Quinn, going into the living dream of his 3rd NHL game, is p***y footing because the team isn't going to make the playoffs.

Definitely sucks double that Quinner is going to miss time.

That wasn't what I said or meant -- I doubt he would p***yfoot in any game for any reason.
 

Matt Ress

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That wasn't what I said or meant -- I doubt he would p***yfoot in any game for any reason.
I don't doubt guys take time off throughout crap seasons. I just don't think Quinn is that guy right now.

What else would you be insinuating in the Quinn thread when you say it's not a coincidence.
 

Doug Prishpreed

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I don't doubt guys take time off throughout crap seasons. I just don't think Quinn is that guy right now.

What else would you be insinuating in the Quinn thread when you say it's not a coincidence.

Sorry, when I said "no one cares" I was talking about the fans, not the players. Probably a poorly written statement.
 

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