Player Discussion Jack Campbell

[Soundwave]

Except you can't send down half a roster, so what exactly is your point?

You're all mad because they sent down a guy who has played like shit for the second season in a row now, who can't even hold his head above water at the AHL level. He got sent down because he was trash. You constantly say things like management never makes the hard decisions, they never admit when they make a mistake signing players then holding onto them too long trying to get them going, they're always too concerned about being nice and sparing peoples feelings despite the NHL being a results based business, and not being more cut throat when it comes to player demotions and accountability, and that the NHL isn't a place for players to find their game, its not a development league.

Now the team has changed course and done every single one of those things that you constantly complain about, and you're complaining that they did it because somehow allowing Jack Campbell to continue sewering starts for the main club is the best way to raise his value (despite the fact that you've been saying he has none and will require multiple good assets to move, insinuating he has negative value already), and because the team needs to make sure he feels good despite his bad play because we don't want to hurt his feelings and blow his confidence (despite the fact he's already done this to himself over multiple teams and seasons now too.

You're literally just complaining for the sake of complaining, and contradicting the shit out of your own past comments at the same time.

We put our TEAM in a worse position. I don't frankly give two stinky farts about any mother f***er on this roster not wearing no. 97 or 29 with maybe a soft spot for Hyman and Kane.

If the entire rest of this roster got relegated and we got to pick from an expansion draft of 0, I'd shed exactly 0 tears that day believe me.

I don't care about that shit. Yes, f*** you too Darnell Nurse and Evan Bouchard and Nugent Hopkins too.

I DO care that this team put themselves now into an even worse position and this attitude of "well who cares, just buy our way out of stupid contract no. 8373737".

The priority should have been to salvage what you can get. Dead cap is the worst kind of cap penalty you can have, we can't constantly be piling on mountains of dead cap.

Beyond that it's tied our hands this season too, because what the f*** is even the plan now? Get a goalie? With what cap room? Pickard getting serious starts here is just stupid, this guy is an AHL goalie. Campbell at least has NHL capability if you work with him and don't destroy his confidence.

Most posters here lets be honest don't understand salary cap beyond just "well this is our cap this year". It only dawned on half this board I'd say what a disaster that Brown signing could be like 10 days ago, I was saying that months ago here and taking shit for it, now people realize what I was talking about.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It's just as logical to say that having a guy with confidence issues play in a fishbowl during one of the team's worst stretches of hockey in recent history could destroy his confidence. They literally sent him away from the pressure to find his game where no one is watching.

If Campbell lets in a bad goal in an Oiler game right now, and costs them a game, it will be a huge story. He just had three horrific starts and yeah the fans talk about it, but it's not really a big deal.

This is a good post. Even though I don't agree on the overall take this comment made me consider.

Thanks for it.

i still think the player should be involved in the decision.

I disagree though that the Bakersfield starts are indicative of anything but that Campbell is sunk in the minors, and that perhaps he was not in agreement with that.

 

[Arpeggio]

How about this. Instead of an org being top down on its assets how about allow the player to have his input. Do you think the Oilers did that.

How hard would it be for the org to actually ask the player himself what he wanted.

The org instead asked Woody and Schwartz what they wanted and I'm pretty convinced at that.

Woody used the Erne and Campbell waivers as bumps to impact the team, to get their attention, and pretty much said it in pressers.

For Erne who cares. Just a PTO, we can flush that one. With Campbell we have to make the 5M work in some way. You don't flush that one,

I know we're just going in circles here, but man, Campbell can still get going. They're paying him very well to get going. In what world are players who perform as poorly as Campbell has given agency over roster moves?

Just a question, but given how Connor Brown has performed, a lot of people are calling for him to be sent down before he plays his tenth game. It's actually something I would be on board with too, especially if he's still "finding his legs". Wondering where you stand on that one?

 

[Drivesaitl]

tough shit if thats how he takes it? the team has distanced itself from a guy who has shown to be incapable for any sustained periods of good play despite the fact they made the mistake of giving him the contract in the first place.

they aren't concerned about sparing his feelings, because his feelings don't matter here. what matters is that he isn't living up to his end of the bargain and he's having to deal with the consequences of that, which is making him even worse. that's on jack campbell and I don't feel bad at all. Everybody knows what Campbell is. he isn't going to just become some goalie that suddenly has value and we can move. there's no untapped talent there. he is what he is, and he's always been that. the guy can't even play at the AHL level this year and people are actually upset that the team doesn't have him starting games.

Tough shit? Not a very reasonable response. Not very pragmatic. The key in management is to understand approach that will or won't work with personalities. Not to say pound sand.

Tough shit of course as an approach is not asset management.

 

[GOilers88]

We put our TEAM in a worse position. I don't frankly give two stinky farts about any mother f***er on this roster not wearing no. 97 or 29 with maybe a soft spot for Hyman and Kane.

If the entire rest of this roster got relegated and we got to pick from an expansion draft of 0, I'd shed exactly 0 tears that day believe me.

I don't care about that shit. Yes, f*** you too Darnell Nurse and Evan Bouchard and Nugent Hopkins too.

I DO care that this team put themselves now into an even worse position and this attitude of "well who cares, just buy our way out of stupid contract no. 8373737".

The priority should have been to salvage what you can get. Dead cap is the worst kind of cap penalty you can have, we can't constantly be piling on mountains of dead cap.

Beyond that it's tied our hands this season too, because what the f*** is even the plan now? Get a goalie? With what cap room? Pickard getting serious starts here is just stupid, this guy is an AHL goalie. Campbell at least has NHL capability if you work with him and don't destroy his confidence.

Most posters here lets be honest don't understand salary cap beyond just "well this is our cap this year". It only dawned on half this board I'd say what a disaster that Brown signing could be like 10 days ago, I was saying that months ago here and taking shit for it, now people realize what I was talking about.

Whole lot of word salad and no substance at all. What the f*** are you even talking about? Clearly the team is in a far better position today than they were the last time Campbell was here. Guy has been ass in the AHL and deserves nothing with the Oilers until he shows he can provide it. There's no media pressure or anything on him in Bako and he's shitting the bed as per usual. But yeah, let's give him starts for the big club where the media and fan scrutiny over every little play is a million times worse than what he's experiencing right now.

 

[joestevens29]

I know we're just going in circles here, but man, Campbell can still get going. They're paying him very well to get going. In what world are players who perform as poorly as Campbell has given agency over roster moves?

Just a question, but given how Connor Brown has performed, a lot of people are calling for him to be sent down before he plays his tenth game. It's actually something I would be on board with too, especially if he's still "finding his legs". Wondering where you stand on that one?

Made regardless of what they do with Brown is my guess.

 

[Soundwave]

Whole lot of word salad and no substance at all. What the f*** are you even talking about? Clearly the team is in a far better position today than they were the last time Campbell was here. Guy has been ass in the AHL and deserves nothing with the Oilers until he shows he can provide it. There's no media pressure or anything on him in Bako and he's shitting the bed as per usual. But yeah, let's give him starts for the big club where the media and fan scrutiny over every little play is a million times worse than what he's experiencing right now.

No they're not in a better position.

A week ago at least you could probably have some discussions about teams taking on Campbell at some point, this week he is basically untradeable and we're left now with the option of running Skinner into the ground because we don't even have an experienced back up.

That's not a better situation, that's making a bad situation worse than it already was for no reason.

If you want to just "have a pound of flesh" and have someone to blame, blame the f***ing moron that is your GM that is still some how employed. Where's the "accountability" there?

Jack Campbell will likely go somewhere else and put up .900 somewhere else. He's not a great goalie, but he is not this bad, we just put him in a position to fail for no great reason by singling him out and making him the only fall guy for a D-corps that was playing with less structure than the Dallas Eakins era.

 

[Arpeggio]

This is a good post. Even though I don't agree on the overall take this comment made me consider.

Thanks for it.

i still think the player should be involved in the decision.

I disagree though that the Bakersfield starts are indicative of anything but that Campbell is sunk in the minors, and that perhaps he was not in agreement with that.

One thing I wanted to add to this, the Oilers have a goalie prospect currently playing in Bakersfield that is performing really well, and they are taking minutes away from him to get Campbell going. I would hope that the motivation behind this move has clearly been explained to Campbell, and based on him getting three consecutive starts, I have to think he's still in the plans moving forward.

I agree that if the idea was punish Campbell to try to motivate the team, that's terrible logic and should not have driven this decision. But I just have to believe the idea is to call him back up as soon as he puts a few good games together, it's what makes sense to me.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I know we're just going in circles here, but man, Campbell can still get going. They're paying him very well to get going. In what world are players who perform as poorly as Campbell has given agency over roster moves?

Just a question, but given how Connor Brown has performed, a lot of people are calling for him to be sent down before he plays his tenth game. It's actually something I would be on board with too, especially if he's still "finding his legs". Wondering where you stand on that one?

Glen Sather and John Muckler used consultive approach with players that served huge dividends.

management shouldn't just be top down. If you have employee org assets its best to use those seeking input from those employees. KK is telling us he's doing that since he's taken over. Its what coaches and managers should be doing.

The Brown point is interesting, and I thank you for bringing it up. Brown is injured goods. He's currently feeling that he's healthier than he appears to be and I think the org got a bad bill of goods. The org got a lame horse and contract. So I do feel differently about that one.

In the case of Brown I think he's possibly in denial about his physical health. you could raise point Campbell is in denial about his mental health. Interesting point though. I credit you for causing me thought on this.

jmo this is what discussion should look like, causing further reflection.

 

[GOilers88]

Tough shit? Not a very reasonable response. Not very pragmatic. The key in management is to understand approach that will or won't work with personalities. Not to say pound sand.

Tough shit of course as an approach is not asset management.

Tough titties then? Sure, it sucks that he has mental problems. Shit, I do too. If those issues cause me an inability to perform my job in anything close to an acceptable manner, my employer and union will remove me from my current situation and put me through the necessary steps to getting my shit figured out so I can return to work and do the job i'm being paid to do. Or I get let go if I just contiue to underperform because clearly the job isn't conducive to my own well being and mental health.

This is no different with Jack Campbell. You can look at it as the team has demoted him and told him they don't want him around, or that they've removed him from an incredibly pressure filled situation and put him somewhere with far less pressure in an attempt to allow him to figure his shit out and find his game so he can return to the NHL and resume doing what he's being paid to do. Moving him away from the spotlight of Edmonton and the current circus there strikes me as a move that is taking his well being into consideration, as well as one that puts him in a situation more likely to have him find success, given he's playing against far lesser competition. The fact that he's cratering even worse now tells me he shouldn't be with the big club, nor is it going to be easier for him to find his game with them. The organization is even taking prime starts away from a young goalie prospect who is showing very well this year in Rodrigue, in an attempt to get Campbell going. Clearly they aren't just dumping him by the wayside, and are doing what they can to put him in the best situation to string together a good couple of starts to bring him back up. But thats on him now, and so far he has not been up to the task.

 

[Soundwave]

One thing I wanted to add to this, the Oilers have a goalie prospect currently playing in Bakersfield that is performing really well, and they are taking minutes away from him to get Campbell going. I would hope that the motivation behind this move has clearly been explained to Campbell, and based on him getting three consecutive starts, I have to think he's still in the plans moving forward.

I agree that if the idea was punish Campbell to try to motivate the team, that's terrible logic and should not have driven this decision. But I just have to believe the idea is to call him back up as soon as he puts a few good games together, it's what makes sense to me.

That's exactly why they did it. They didn't want to fire Woodcroft and made Campbell the initial fall guy for everything hoping for some stupid reason that it would spark the team some how.

When that predictably didn't spark the team they were forced to fire Woodcroft anyway.

All the Oilers have accomplished with this stunt is destroy Campbell's confidence and have Rodrigue sit on the AHL bench not playing games for no reason.

 

[Arpeggio]

That's exactly why they did it. They didn't want to fire Woodcroft and made Campbell the initial fall guy for everything hoping for some stupid reason that it would spark the team some how.

When that predictably didn't spark the team they were forced to fire Woodcroft anyway.

All the Oilers have accomplished with this stunt is destroy Campbell's confidence and have Rodrigue sit on the AHL bench not playing games for no reason.

I just don't buy that. It doesn't make sense for that to be the motivation, but also for them to take time away from Rodrigue to give Campbell starts. If they were just discarding him, they would still be prioritizing Rodrigue's playing time.

We won't agree on this because we have different ideas on what the motivation for sending him down was.

 

[GOilers88]

No they're not in a better position.

A week ago at least you could probably have some discussions about teams taking on Campbell at some point, this week he is basically untradeable and we're left now with the option of running Skinner into the ground because we don't even have an experienced back up.

That's not a better situation, that's making a bad situation worse than it already was for no reason.

If you want to just "have a pound of flesh" and have someone to blame, blame the f***ing moron that is your GM that is still some how employed. Where's the "accountability" there?

Jack Campbell will likely go somewhere else and put up .900 somewhere else. He's not a great goalie, but he is not this bad, we just put him in a position to fail for no great reason by singling him out and making him the only fall guy for a D-corps that was playing with less structure than the Dallas Eakins era.

You honestly think in the last week Campbell went from movable contract to suddenly not? You don't think every team in the league already knows what Campbell is based on his what, 10 plus years in the league?

Nothing has changed with regards to Campbell and his contract. If someone was willing to eat it last week for good assets, that isn't suddenly going to be off the table. It's probably more likely that any team that wanted to take him on is just as likely to buy him out as the Oilers are at this point.

it's amazing how much leash you want to give Campbell despite seeing him do his thing for years now, but you're ready to consider Stu just another young goalie who won't really improve despite only have one (albeit good) season in the league.

Again, you're just complaining for the sake of complaining at this point and it's absolutely comical based on all the long winded rants you consistently go on.

 

[Soundwave]

I just don't buy that. It doesn't make sense for that to be the motivation, but also for them to take time away from Rodrigue to give Campbell starts. If they were just discarding him, they would still be prioritizing Rodrigue's playing time.

We won't agree on this because we have different ideas on what the motivation for sending him down was.

If this team did not understand that sending down Campbell had a high probability of back firing in their face then they are stupider than anyone on this board thinks.

Even if you want to argue the motivation of it, lets just ask a basic question:

Did they really think this was going to end in a good way?

Sure, lets demote the most mentally fragile player on the team and single him out in an embarrassing way, even though he actually has the best save percentage on the team.

Surely, that won't go wrong in a hurry and has a high probability of paying dividends.

 

[Spawn]

You don't send down a vet goalie 5 games played into the season and conclude he's not anythng for the 2nd season in a row.

That is poor asset management and its something I truly believe would not have occurred without bias being present.

The sending down was far too early, presumptive, and seemed to assume the player was incapable of finding game here. Even though the player had been playing well, generally, for sometime.

The only way to get rid of Campbell is to utilize him properly where he's established, at the NHL level. The AHL level is the org showing him he's no longer wanted here. That is the way Campbell himself would likely take it.

not every personality type does well with being sent to the minors. Its not one size fits all approach.

Poor asset management was signing Campbell in the first place. There is no managing that asset now. He’s irreparable. There’s no fixing it. He’s not an NHL goaltender.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Tough titties then? Sure, it sucks that he has mental problems. Shit, I do too. If those issues cause me an inability to perform my job in anything close to an acceptable manner, my employer and union will remove me from my current situation and put me through the necessary steps to getting my shit figured out so I can return to work and do the job i'm being paid to do. Or I get let go if I just contiue to underperform because clearly the job isn't conducive to my own well being and mental health.

This is no different with Jack Campbell. You can look at it as the team has demoted him and told him they don't want him around, or that they've removed him from an incredibly pressure filled situation and put him somewhere with far less pressure in an attempt to allow him to figure his shit out and find his game so he can return to the NHL and resume doing what he's being paid to do. Moving him away from the spotlight of Edmonton and the current circus there strikes me as a move that is taking his well being into consideration, as well as one that puts him in a situation more likely to have him find success, given he's playing against far lesser competition. The fact that he's cratering even worse now tells me he shouldn't be with the big club, nor is it going to be easier for him to find his game with them.

Sad reality is that most of us toil in positions where it doesn't even matter if we've done good work for a firm for a decade. its about what have you done lately. Thats the working class or even white collar class reality for most.

But we're not 5M buck assets (yes i realize Campbell realistically isn't either.) we're devalued smallfry relatively speaking, most of us.

One percenters get different treatment and almost all pro sports athletes do. They're in an upper echelon of importance. Worth a lot of money. So that its different. we're all people, but we're not all valued, and especially in the workplace. Which is sad.

None of us either are likely to find ourselves in positions where its the job of every opponent to destroy us, beat us, and cause our failure.

i feel your position but we can't transpose our own circumstance. its not at all the same.

Poor asset management was signing Campbell in the first place. There is no managing that asset now. He’s irreparable. There’s no fixing it. He’s not an NHL goaltender.

Yeah, frt I wasn't convinced of him either and especially at sticker price. The contract is plain ugly, a mess. The cost benefit analysis at this point is either abort and mitigate through buyout vs what can we salvage out of this and at least have a goalie out of it. An overpaid one. That kind of in financial cap analysis is way out of my competence. leave it for others.

 

[Arpeggio]

If this team did not understand that sending down Campbell had a high probability of back firing in their face then they are stupider than anyone on this board thinks.

Even if you want to argue the motivation of it, just use some common sense here.

Sure, lets demote the most mentally fragile player on the team and single him out in an embarrassing way, even though he actually has the best save percentage on the team.

Surely, that won't go wrong in a hurry.

I think you're really overstating how embarrassing this move was. I don't think this is the big story you're saying it is.

 

[Soundwave]

Poor asset management was signing Campbell in the first place. There is no managing that asset now. He’s irreparable. There’s no fixing it. He’s not an NHL goaltender.

Oh the Oilers are managing it all right. But doing the dumbest things imaginable.

Guy plays well in the playoffs ... doesn't get a chance to start even after saving their season.

Guy works on his game in the summer and plays well in the preseason and the team decides to play the worst defense the team has seen since the Eakins-era to crater both goalies.

Guy doesn't get to play in the Heritage Classic even though really he is next in the rotation because the other guy ordered fancy special Grant Fuhr pads (lol).

Guy gets singled out and embarrassed as the only veteran who gets demoted to the AHL, even though he has the higher of the two goalies' save percentage. Did the Oilers think this was really going to work in boosting his confidence? If they did they are the even dumber than their reputation.

I mean look, we can fault Campbell for a lot, but the above is all stupid managing of this player.

This guy is not great, but he is NOT this bad either. He can be a .900 goalie in the NHL if you play some goddamn defense and don't crater his confidence for no reason. You could have managed this whole situation so it didn't get to this point.

 

[GOilers88]

Sad reality is that most of us toil in positions where it doesn't even matter if we've done good work for a firm for a decade. its about what have you done lately. Thats the working class or even white collar class reality for most.

But we're not 5M buck assets (yes i realize Campbell realistically isn't either.) we're devalued smallfry relatively speaking, most of us.

One percenters get different treatment and almost all pro sports athletes do. They're in an upper echelon of importance. Worth a lot of money. So that its different. we're all people, but we're not all valued, and especially in the workplace. Which is sad.

None of us either are likely to find ourselves in positions where its the job of every opponent to destroy us, beat us, and cause our failure.

i feel your position but we can't transpose our own circumstance. its not at all the same.

I'm not trying to say my company would help me the way a pro sports team would help a million dollar athlete, just that the response to poor work results are likely the same. When the poor work results are causing even worse mental health, the best bet is to remove oneself from the work environment and take the necessary steps required to learning how to build it back up so that you can return to the environment that causes such stress and perform at an acceptable level.

Imagine if Jack Campbell had posted those starts he did with Bako up in Edmonton. Three more massive losses tacked onto this team instead of the three wins they got. I don't understand how that's at all a good idea to helping him regain his confidence, or how it's to the benefit of the team. He's being beaten by AHL players on a team that prior to his arrival boasted the two best goalies in the AHL and a pretty sound defense. How does keeping him up against NHL players help more when he's sinking what was already a decent team down in Bako?

 

[joestevens29]

I honestly don't get what backfired. What 3 people in Edmonton thought Campbell would bounce back this year after the way he started? He had horrible negative value before and it isn't exactly going to get worse. Everyone and their dog knew that any deal would be because a team would get assets to take him on, not they think they can re-program his brain into some sort of NHL goalie.

 

[Spawn]

Oh the Oilers are managing it all right. But doing the dumbest things imaginable.

Guy plays well in the playoffs ... doesn't get a chance to start even after saving their season.

Guy works on his game in the summer and plays well in the preseason and the team decides to play the worst defense the team has seen since the Eakins-era to crater both goalies.

Guy doesn't get to play in the Heritage Classic even though really he is next in the rotation because the other guy ordered fancy special Grant Fuhr pads (lol).

Guy gets singled out and embarrassed as the only veteran who gets demoted to the AHL, even though he has the higher of the two goalies' save percentage. Did the Oilers think this was really going to work in boosting his confidence? If they did they are the even dumber than their reputation.

I mean look, we can fault Campbell for a lot, but the above is all stupid managing of this player.

This guy is not great, but he is NOT this bad either. He can be a .900 goalie in the NHL if you play some goddamn defense and don't crater his confidence for no reason. You could have managed this whole situation so it didn't get to this point.

He hasn’t been a .900 goalie, since returning from an injury like 2 years ago mid season with Toronto. He can’t do it anymore.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think you're really overstating how embarrassing this move was. I don't think this is the big story you're saying it is.

Whatever way you shake it sending a 5M/25M asset to the minors is a big big story and one that has news beyond just the player. It says the org itself that signed the contract is a circus. It sends bushleague message. It sends message that an org went lookign for a specific goalie and that the org quickly learns that thier high priced asset is deemed worthy of being sent to minors. This from an org with already a pronounced history of bad contracts, bad cap and asset management.

The optics of this are horrible beyond Campbell, and speak to the org throwing cap irresponsibly. It signals to the players as well that can lose hope in an org that makes decisions like these.

So even out of the realm of what this does to Campbell specifically is it costs reputation to org as well, and chiefly that it doesn't know what its doing.

Giving Campbell the occasional and manageable start in the show was advisable to the quantum ripple of sending a 25M contract to the minors, which is plain ugly optics. We would all laugh if another org was doing this. Just like we laugh with the much worse Huburdeau contract.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I’m surprised that people are actually upset that Campbell got waived?

I guess they just want the opportunity to complain about anything

 

[Soundwave]

He hasn’t been a .900 goalie, since returning from an injury like 2 years ago mid season with Toronto. He can’t do it.

I think he can be, that's not a huge bar to clear.

You just have to play some freaking defence in front of him. Was he not like .930 in the playoffs?

He can be a .900 back up for 20 starts in this league. And I don't even care about him getting to that because I'm any kind of fan of his. I give zero f***s, but if we had him at .900, as a *team* we would have some trade options and at least not have to ride Skinner into the ground.

You're not going to get there though if you have a team that refuses to defend at all and then on top of that you single him out and now you got him in his head thinking about "oh gee, man I'm back in the AHL, I thought I was over this, guess it means all the work I did in the summer was for nothing".

By the way, all the people who were on Holland's jock strap and now also want to shit on Campbell can go pound sand. This whole situation is on your dummy GM and if you were a Holland backer when he was making these signings, you don't have a whole lot of room to talk now.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He hasn’t been a .900 goalie, since returning from an injury like 2 years ago mid season with Toronto. He can’t do it anymore.

If you don't mind what injury was that and do you think its still limiting him? I haven't deepdived Campbell as much historically. He wasn't a player of interest for me. Not one I would have gone out to acquire.