Tribute Jack Campbell Discussion

[Twine Tickler]

Mirtle reported that hyman wanted to stay and that the leafs had really stopped conversations with him. They basically decided that they could fill his role for less.

He mentioned way back a month before FA that he was surprised they didn’t follow up with him. And had other targets. I was hoping it was landy. But it looks like it was bunting/kase/Ritchie.

it was the first cold blooded
Move we saw from dubas. Hyman was his first move as a leaf IIRC

I mean in all honesty, as terrible as it is to see Hyman on another team, it was 100% the right call. I think we all knew at the time it was the right call to move on given what he eventually got, and it just keeps proving itself more and more true with each passing day.

That's not a slight on Hyman at all. He was my favorite Leaf. It was gut wrenching to see him sign elsewhere. But you cannot argue the results. It was an incredibly bold move by Dubas that I really don't think he gets enough credit for.

I just don't know if Jack is as replaceable. The 3 most important positions in hockey are 1C, 1D, and your Starting Goalie. Zach was a utility forward who on any Stanley cup winning roster would be likely the 4th best forward on the team. On our team he was #4-5. He was expendable unfortunately.

I don't see that as the case for Jack personally. Having the mental fortitude to be a starting goalie in the NHL is easily one of the hardest things to acquire in pro sports. Let alone being the starter in a Canadian market. Jack has endeared himself to this market to a point where it is almost impossible to shit on him. He will always be a bigger critic than you or I. His accountability borders lunacy TBH, and even takes blame when it is clearly not his fault. Even if he slumped, you know it would not be for a lack of effort. His accountability is exactly why I believe his "slumps" have mitigated to 1 or 2 games while being a Leaf. I honestly can't remember a single stretch where Jack has posted back to back stinkers as a Leaf. He knows when he needs to be better more than anyone on this planet.

If there is one characteristic that I'd say all Leaf fans unanimously adore regardless of result is effort. Jack will never short change us on that IMO.

Between Mo and Jack I can't really remember the last Leaf player who has shown such a genuine pride in being a Leaf. Not since Darcy Tucker TBH.

I could handle Zach leaving to EDM this past year, but I will not be happy if Jack is not back next season+.

 

[PromisedLand]

Not sure if posted but interesting....

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not sure if posted but interesting....

Warms my heart to hear that. Just extend the guy already FFS!!

 

[Confucius]

I mean in all honesty, as terrible as it is to see Hyman on another team, it was 100% the right call. I think we all knew at the time it was the right call to move on given what he eventually got, and it just keeps proving itself more and more true with each passing day.

That's not a slight on Hyman at all. He was my favorite Leaf. It was gut wrenching to see him sign elsewhere. But you cannot argue the results. It was an incredibly bold move by Dubas that I really don't think he gets enough credit for.

I just don't know if Jack is as replaceable. The 3 most important positions in hockey are 1C, 1D, and your Starting Goalie. Zach was a utility forward who on any Stanley cup winning roster would be likely the 4th best forward on the team. On our team he was #4-5. He was expendable unfortunately.

I don't see that as the case for Jack personally. Having the mental fortitude to be a starting goalie in the NHL is easily one of the hardest things to acquire in pro sports. Let alone being the starter in a Canadian market. Jack has endeared himself to this market to a point where it is almost impossible to shit on him. He will always be a bigger critic than you or I. His accountability borders lunacy TBH, and even takes blame when it is clearly not his fault. Even if he slumped, you know it would not be for a lack of effort. His accountability is exactly why I believe his "slumps" have mitigated to 1 or 2 games while being a Leaf. I honestly can't remember a single stretch where Jack has posted back to back stinkers as a Leaf. He knows when he needs to be better more than anyone on this planet.

If there is one characteristic that I'd say all Leaf fans unanimously adore regardless of result is effort. Jack will never short change us on that IMO.

Between Mo and Jack I can't really remember the last Leaf player who has shown such a genuine pride in being a Leaf. Not since Darcy Tucker TBH.

I could handle Zach leaving to EDM this past year, but I will not be happy if Jack is not back next season+.

Spezza for sure is proud to play for us, as does JT. Marner as well although he took us to the cleaners.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Do we know anything about the negotiations? Like did/does Dubas want to sign him but Campbell's camp is the one who wants to wait? I think it is easier said than done to "just sign him already". Like if Jack was ready to sign, then yes this isn't going down the best path. But if he's been the one refusing, then only way to have signed him was give him an inflated deal he couldn't refuse... which would not sit well with this fanbase...

 

[Menzinger]

Do we know anything about the negotiations? Like did/does Dubas want to sign him but Campbell's camp is the one who wants to wait? I think it is easier said than done to "just sign him already". Like if Jack was ready to sign, then yes this isn't going down the best path. But if he's been the one refusing, then only way to have signed him was give him an inflated deal he couldn't refuse... which would not sit well with this fanbase...

It seems as if both sides wanted to "wait and see" when it came to contract negotiations for an extension

 

[attackfan71]

You don't. This isn't the thread though to re-hash it for the 1000th time.

You should at least read what I was replying to and out the statement in context before saying it’s the wrong thread.

 

[Jozay]

Give him his 5 per.

 

[Confucius]

It seems as if both sides wanted to "wait and see" when it came to contract negotiations for an extension

That would be bad on Dubas part, IMO. He shouldn't let it go until the summer and be in a panic position.

 

[Confucius]

Give him his 5 per.

The longer it goes the price goes up. He may win the Vezina then it may be give him his 7 or 8...

 

[Menzinger]

That would be bad on Dubas part, IMO. He shouldn't let it go until the summer and be in a panic position.

I don't think it means a mid-season contract won't happen. Just that neither side wanted to finalize something the past offseason with Campbell still had such a small sample sizes of good games at that point.

 

[Antropovsky]

Campbell is such a nice guy that I actually wouldn't be mad if he got a huge contract this off-season and left us. Another example of Dubas waiting too long to get his contracts done though. Might have got him on Mrazek's deal if we did it early.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Do we know anything about the negotiations? Like did/does Dubas want to sign him but Campbell's camp is the one who wants to wait? I think it is easier said than done to "just sign him already". Like if Jack was ready to sign, then yes this isn't going down the best path. But if he's been the one refusing, then only way to have signed him was give him an inflated deal he couldn't refuse... which would not sit well with this fanbase...

Insider Trading: Will Ontario’s COVID-19 restrictions affect the Heritage Classic? - TSN.ca

Any developments on Jack Campbell’s contract?

LeBrun: There have not been negotiations between the two sides since the season has started. And what’s interesting about that is that my sense of it is that whatever the number was that Jack Campbell’s camp, led by Kurt Overhardt, would have perhaps settled for before the season when there were some negotiations, that number has gone up since then, there’s no doubt about it. Because Jack Campbell is a Vezina Trophy candidate at this point so far this season and he has proven his durability so far this season. And so his leverage and his market price continues to soar. Now, a lot of people wonder about Kurt Overhardt with some of his other negotiations whether he’s actually willing to negotiate during the season. You saw he used that as a pressure tactic with Mattias Ekholm, forcing an extension to get done right before the Nashville Predators’ season for that pending UFA. I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case here. I think if the Leafs went back to Jack Campbell’s camp with a new offer sometime near the end of the regular season it could spur on more talks. But the bottom line is this: It’s more expensive now, I think, to sign Jack Campbell than it was before the season started.

 

[Stonehands1990]

The longer it goes the price goes up. He may win the Vezina then it may be give him his 7 or 8...

Bye bye Kerfoot. 1 of Knies, Robertson or Amirov might be ready to steal a LW spot out of camp. Sandin, Liljegren & Soupy are all RFA/UFA. Mikeyhev & Engvall also UFA. Ritchie back in the mix next year for top 6? Should be an interesting o off season

 

[Divine]

It seems as if both sides wanted to "wait and see" when it came to contract negotiations for an extension

Not necessarily. LeBrun reported Campbell was ready to sign before the season started, but the Leafs didn't want to commit yet. Now, the offer that Campbell would have signed then may have increased. His price has went up since then.

It's just dumb management unless Dubas believed that Mrazek is going to be the starter, because signing Mrazek before Campbell meant the bare minimum for Campbell would be 3.8M. I thnk last summer he could have been had for 4M-ish on a longer term deal and he was relatively unproven.

It makes 0 sense to let Andersen walk, and then sign Campbell and Mrazek to double what Andersen gets (combined).

 

[ToneDog]

Keep hearing (again Dreger mentioned it this morning) that Soup's agent made a proposal earlier in the season and it was not to the Leafs' liking. Amazing how Soup has not let any contract talk affect his play.

 

[robertmac43]

I think Campbell will be my next jersey purchase at this point. Need a goalie in the collection and this guy is just so good on and off the ice.

 

[deltamachine]

I think wait and see was the right move by the Leafs even if it means a higher cost by waiting to make sure. The downside risk on a potentially bad contract far outweighs the upside risk of a cheaper signing. If Jack was just playing out of his mind or a turned out to be a guy that can't stay healthy, a bad goalie contract would be tough to fix on this team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think wait and see was the right move by the Leafs even if it means a higher cost by waiting to make sure. The downside risk on a potentially bad contract far outweighs the upside risk of a cheaper signing. If Jack was just playing out of his mind or a turned out to be a guy that can't stay healthy, a bad goalie contract would be tough to fix on this team.

You can never be sure though. At some point you have to decide that yes, now is the right time, Dubas has decided so far to keep waiting but the problem is that we're running out of time.

The downside of a bad contract is a risk that exists with most contracts. You say that outweighs the upside risk of a cheaper signing - I'm not sure that's true and in any case there's also the risk that he signs somewhere else. The downside of Campbell being the guy we've been looking for for 20 years now and losing him also exists and is frankly terrifying. As it is, this team looks really good, a complete team with no holes anywhere. But as good as some of our players are, Matthews, Nylander etc., I think it's fair to say at this point that Campbell is the most important and most valuable player on our team. Lose him, and all of a sudden we're missing the most important piece in the puzzle and missing that piece could mean that we never win a cup with this core. How big a risk is that?

Every contract is a gamble, a risk. Signing is a risk, not signing is a risk, that's just the way it is. Dubas decided that signing him in the summer was a bigger risk than not signing him, so far it looks like that was a huge mistake, possibly an even bigger mistake than the Marner contract. One way or the other, this mistake is going to cost us, the only thing left to see is what exactly that cost will be.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

As much as most of you want Soup signed ASAP I still want to see him play a full season as a starter and then see what he does in playoffs .. as most of you know I am not a big Dubie fan but on this one I still think he has played it right .. most fans have clearly forgot da game 7 house league goal against in a tight game which decided da game and series .. now look I believe everyone deserves a 2nd chance but handing out a big long term contract for Soup could still massively backfire .. now if he plays full season and takes us to playoffs and wins us a round then hell yes give him his LT deal but for me until then I think prudent move is to wait and see

 

[deltamachine]

You can never be sure though. At some point you have to decide that yes, now is the right time, Dubas has decided so far to keep waiting but the problem is that we're running out of time.

The downside of a bad contract is a risk that exists with most contracts. You say that outweighs the upside risk of a cheaper signing - I'm not sure that's true and in any case there's also the risk that he signs somewhere else..

On most teams, yes, i would 100% agree that the tail end risk offsets the upside, so roll the dice. But the Leafs can't afford to eat a bad contract on a goalie. Marner is a sunk cost so it's moot. Campbell could have turned out like Ritchie, but then you'd have that AND Mrazek who's not a sure fire thing either. As you say, Jack and by extension, the position he is in, is of prime importance, taking a gamble there would be taking unnecessary risk. On top of that, he still had Reilly to re-sign at the time.

Next year, we likely lose 1 of Mrazek or Kerfoot regardless of the Campbell re-signing. Waiting to sign Jack means we additionally lose one of Engvall or Mikheyev. But if Jack turned out to have an anomalous lights out season prior to signing, the costs to address that on this team would be far far greater than the benefits of signing early and would set the franchise back.

 

[Gary Nylund]

On most teams, yes, i would 100% agree that the tail end risk offsets the upside, so roll the dice. But the Leafs can't afford to eat a bad contract on a goalie. Marner is a sunk cost so it's moot. Campbell could have turned out like Ritchie, but then you'd have that AND Mrazek who's not a sure fire thing either. As you say, Jack and by extension, the position he is in, is of prime importance, taking a gamble there would be taking unnecessary risk. On top of that, he still had Reilly to re-sign at the time.

Next year, we likely lose 1 of Mrazek or Kerfoot regardless of the Campbell re-signing. Waiting to sign Jack means we additionally lose one of Engvall or Mikheyev. But if Jack turned out to have an anomalous lights out season prior to signing, the costs to address that on this team would be far far greater than the benefits of signing early and would set the franchise back.

You seem to be assuming that there is no risk of Campbell signing elsewhere. You talk about risk - don't you think there's risk attached to making such an assumption? If he does end up signing someplace else, now that would really set the franchise back!

You also seem to think that signing Campbell last summer would have been risky but you seem to be ignoring the fact that that risk is still exists. As of the summer, he'd played in 86 games, now he's up to 111 so he's a little bit more established but not that much more, certainly not enough to say that he's gone from a somewhat risky bet to a sure thing. You could say that the risk of his play taking a big dip has gone down but the flip side of that coin is that the cost of signing him has also gone up, probably way up.

Not signing him in the summer seems like a pretty big mistake to me at this point and I'm surprised anyone could see it any differently.

 

[deprw]

Not signing him in the summer seems like a pretty big mistake to me at this point and I'm surprised anyone could see it any differently.

I think with Campbells amount of games it's not easy to label this as mistake. There could have been slump at start of the season and we would have said we should have waited. Bargain is out of the door and that is shame, but at least we pay the player we know and amount he deserves. During cap era that definitely stings, but let's say having 4 million dollar goalie under 100 games played and four year contract would have been bad pill to swallow, if he would have slumped.

It was choice and bad one in hindsight.

 

[4thline]

Not necessarily. LeBrun reported Campbell was ready to sign before the season started, but the Leafs didn't want to commit yet. Now, the offer that Campbell would have signed then may have increased. His price has went up since then.

It's just dumb management unless Dubas believed that Mrazek is going to be the starter, because signing Mrazek before Campbell meant the bare minimum for Campbell would be 3.8M. I thnk last summer he could have been had for 4M-ish on a longer term deal and he was relatively unproven.

It makes 0 sense to let Andersen walk, and then sign Campbell and Mrazek to double what Andersen gets (combined).

Mrazek's deal is immaterial on Campbell's. Say we sign Reimer/Raanta on the 28th instead, Soup still has the Driedger and Ullmark/Grubaur deals to look at demand. Straight up more proven than Driedger, comparable level of play but slightly fewer games played than the latter two. And with one of the R's as the backup he's staring down the prospect as a season as a starter to drive up his value.

I having a nagging feeling that Leafs were at Mrazek/Driedger money in the offseason, Ullmark/Grubauer if he delivers over a full season,
Overhart was at Ullmark money to start the season, Grubauer/Markstrom/Bob money if he delivers (depending on how well he delivers)

Campbell will have to decide if he's willing to close the gap.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think with Campbells amount of games it's not easy to label this as mistake. There could have been slump at start of the season and we would have said we should have waited. Bargain is out of the door and that is shame, but at least we pay the player we know and amount he deserves. During cap era that definitely stings, but let's say having 4 million dollar goalie under 100 games played and four year contract would have been bad pill to swallow, if he would have slumped.

It was choice and bad one in hindsight.

Yes that's fair. Every decision is a gamble, I wanted to extend him in the summer, for me that would have been priority number 1. It would have been a gamble, just as not extending him would have been a gamble, I just happened to be strongly in favour of taking the gamble of signing him. Now with the benefit of hindsight we can say not extending him looks like a bad choice and a mistake, but it's not like extending him was such an obvious choice that not doing so could be labelled a clear mistake at the time. I mean I thought it was a clear mistake but that's just me, I completely understand the "wait and see" argument, even if I didn't agree.