Tribute Jack Campbell Discussion Part 2

[Aashir]

I’d rather he be there 1B and not the starter going into the playoffs

He just tends to let in bad goals, like Andersen, and can’t be relied upon

He wasn’t bad, but he was no where near good either

 

[Bowski]

Legit #1 goalies rarely go on the market these days, unless you were to gamble on a crazy (Something huge)/Bobrovsky (if they lost this year) type of deal.
Gotta keep developing and hope a prime Matt Murray shows up one day.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Good luck finding that true #1 in a league filled with platoons and middle of the pack goalies. And no, MAF isn't the answer

Game by game breakdown:

Game 1 - Not much to do, got the shutout
Game 2 - Last second Hedman goal was awkward positioning but can't leave a guy all alone in front. The subsequent goals were clear breaks and PP snipes
Game 3 - First star
Game 4 - First goal sucked. No chance on the rest and the team was garbage
Game 5 - Similar first goal as game 4, but dialed in after that. Some huge saves when they were down 2-1
Game 6 - The OT goal? Sure, you'd like to see his right pad flat on the ice.
Game 7 - Bad breaks on both goals. Kept the Leafs in it

Overall, he wasn't amazing, but he certainly wasn't a major issue.

 

[Nylanderthal]

It isn’t so much that he cost the boys the series, but he certainly didn’t steal them a game which is something every team that goes on a run gets from their guy. If they can get a performance out of him say in game 4 this is over in 5 for Toronto, not the standard out in 7.

 

[marquee]

Probably the best backup in the league. Which is not trash. It makes him one of the top 40 goaltenders in the world.

but you’re not making a legitimate run at a cup if he’s your starter.

He is too technically flawed which leads to holes which leads to goals.

Below .900 since December and continued into the playoffs.

People overrate him because he’s a nice guy.

Bargain on his current deal, wouldn’t touch him over 3 mill.

(Similarly Mrazek was a brutal signing, he and Campbell are basically the same goalie - Mrazek is just a slightly worse version of Campbell).

Haha technically flawed? I guess his chest protector and pads aren’t big enough like these other sumo wrestlers. He’s technically sound in goal he doesn’t live on his knees and reads plays well.

He’s 51-14-9 as a leaf 2.5 gaa with a .915 save %, he also has a career .915 save % in the post season. Jacks a bonafide starter and the best tender they’ve had since Balfour this high octane offence has to show up. They scored one goal in the deciding game yet it’s the goalies fault.

I don’t think it was Campbells fault but don't think he can raise his game to the elite goaltending which you need for a long run in the playoffs. He can’t steal you a game. Vasilevski stole this game. We were all over Tampa and deserved better fate. Game 7. Lets go.

All those goalies who “steal“ games have great defensive cores in front of them. The leafs need to address their defence you can’t keep blaming goalies year after year.

 

[MC41]

He is many things, but not a technically sound Goalie. Campbell has a great reaction but after the first save he´s everytime in desperation mode. Looks great if it works, works of course not any time, it never works for any Goalie. But Jack is so many time out of position and not able to make the additional save, because he isn´t technically good.

The 1:2 was the perfect example, Vasi saves a Matthews wrister high blocker side like nothing (and it wasn´t good defended from the great defensive core), after that Paul dangles through Brodie and just throws it to the net and its in (of course Brodie has to stop Paul, but the Tampa D and even Hedman had many Scenes like that but there is a Goalie who saves them).

Vasi made the extra saves, after the first shot and was calm all the time, for Jack its so many times the full desperation mode.

Vasi wasn´t great this Series but showed up when it mattered. Jack is streaky, even in a single Game.

Of course he didn´t lose the series all alone, but it´s the most important Position and you need extra saves in important Games.

 

[A1LeafNation]

He was .897 and 3.15GAA...

 

[makbeer]

Haha technically flawed? I guess his chest protector and pads aren’t big enough like these other sumo wrestlers. He’s technically sound in goal he doesn’t live on his knees and reads plays well.

He’s 51-14-9 as a leaf 2.t gaa with a .915 save %, he also has a career .915 save % in the post season. Jacks a bonafide starter and the best tender they’ve had since Balfour this high octane offence has to show up. They scored one goal in the deciding game yet it’s the goalies fault.


All those goalies who “steal“ games have great defensive cores in front of them. The leafs need to address their defence you can’t keep blaming goalies year after year.

If you think he's technically sound you are stuck in the 90s.

 

[Le Cobra]

Vasi was

3.04

192

.897

 

[Racer88]

It isn’t so much that he cost the boys the series, but he certainly didn’t steal them a game which is something every team that goes on a run gets from their guy. If they can get a performance out of him say in game 4 this is over in 5 for Toronto, not the standard out in 7.

This I agree with 100%. Sometimes the goalie just has to steal you a game

 

[makbeer]

Let me break down the first goal of game 7 and why it was weak.

1) A modern goalie confident in his butterfly with with high-end flexibility extends his pad along the ice, keeps it angled and puts the puck into safety no problem. For some reason, Jack's kicksaves are crazy. He over-extends popping it into the slot, or he struggles to keep his leg along the ice opening up the 5 hole when he reaches. His physical mobility is average at best.

2) The second step of that sequence is one most probably don't notice. Jack has poor head angle. This detaches his head from his body (obviously not literally) - so although he tracks the puck his head leaves his body behind. He is left un-ready to react and make any kind of effort on the second save. This is consistent with his play and is a reason his post-saves moments are almost always 'dives' or 'scrambles' and never controlled butterfly slides.

Goalies now are taught to keep their forehead on the puck - which points the chin down. This accomplishes 2 things. First, any pucks that enter your vision are more likely top be caught in your peripheral as they hit your gear, making you quicker to react to the rebound. Second, when you move your head while your chin is pointed down, it automatically pulls your shoulder over - and once your shoulder goes so does your momentum. This Means when your eyes move to follow the rebound you are ALREADY on the way to making the post-save movement. Jack is completely leaned the wrong way as he watches the puck because of this.

If you doubt this you can try it yourself. Keep your chin up and turn your head to the left or right. You should feel no pull in your shoulders. Bring your chin down and do the same thing - you will feel your back and shoulder naturally start to lean. You can imagine how this will lead you into being able to slide across in the butterfly to make the second save.

This has been around for some time and you'll see young goalies like Demko, Oettinger, Sheshterkin etc are fantastic at it - even older pros have mostly been taught to adjust their head position to adapt as it's not a hard adjustment to make.

Vasi was
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]3.04[/TD]
[TD]192[/TD]
[TD].897[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Opponent's goalie struggling shouldn't mean we lower the bar for our goalie. Campbell was still 22nd in the NHL in save % in the postseason. Vasi's play is irrelevant to how Jack should be evaluated moving forward.

 

[saltming]

Let me break down the first goal of game 7 and why it was weak.

1) A modern goalie confident in his butterfly with with high-end flexibility extends his pad along the ice, keeps it angled and puts the puck into safety no problem. For some reason, Jack's kicksaves are crazy. He over-extends popping it into the slot, or he struggles to keep his leg along the ice opening up the 5 hole when he reaches. His physical mobility is average at best.

2) The second step of that sequence is one most probably don't notice. Jack has poor head angle. This detaches his head from his body (obviously not literally) - so although he tracks the puck his head leaves his body behind. He is left un-ready to react and make any kind of effort on the second save. This is consistent with his play and is a reason his post-saves moments are almost always 'dives' or 'scrambles' and never controlled butterfly slides.

Goalies now are taught to keep their forehead on the puck - which points the chin down. This accomplishes 2 things. First, any pucks that enter your vision are more likely top be caught in your peripheral as they hit your gear, making you quicker to react to the rebound. Second, when you move your head while your chin is pointed down, it automatically pulls your shoulder over - and once your shoulder goes so does your momentum. This Means when your eyes move to follow the rebound you are ALREADY on the way to making the post-save movement. Jack is completely leaned the wrong way as he watches the puck because of this.

If you doubt this you can try it yourself. Keep your chin up and turn your head to the left or right. You should feel no pull in your shoulders. Bring your chin down and do the same thing - you will feel your back and shoulder naturally start to lean. You can imagine how this will lead you into being able to slide across in the butterfly to make the second save.

This has been around for some time and you'll see young goalies like Demko, Oettinger, Sheshterkin etc are fantastic at it - even older pros have mostly been taught to adjust their head position to adapt as it's not a hard adjustment to make.



Opponent's goalie struggling shouldn't mean we lower the bar for our goalie. Campbell was still 22nd in the NHL in save % in the postseason. Vasi's play is irrelevant to how Jack should be evaluated moving forward.

Great breakdown of it.
I've maintained he has issues tracking the puck especially through traffic as, Imo, he doesn't get low enough when needed and you've explained technical flaw that I've noticed as well but didn't know what it was other that 'not tracking the puck'.

Your post really solidifies my position on not offering him term and starter money next season. Hopefully dubas can spread some of that magic he did with the defense and find us a goalie

 

[makbeer]

This is an example of why I am annoyed at Jack's exaggerated movements and reactions. It's clear he hasn't been taught to understand where the real net is in relation to his positioning.

On the Pilat goal he reaches out to try to make a blocker save and the puck goes through his armpits.

But it if you look at what we call box control, you'll realise Jack already has the far post covered he doesn't need to extend at all. He's in great position. All he has to do is drop and the puck will hit him. His lack of understanding of what net he takes up causes him to open up and concede a goal the only way it could have been scored - through his body.

Ofc this diagram isn't 100% accurate given the angle but it would not be much different. At that depth (he's 2 feet out of the blue) and the puck carrier at that distance, Jack has to know he's not giving up any net to the left or right.

This is also why I am constantly questioning the coaching Jack is receiving because of some fundamental issues that have been here for the last 2 years.

 

[saltming]

Haha technically flawed? I guess his chest protector and pads aren’t big enough like these other sumo wrestlers. He’s technically sound in goal he doesn’t live on his knees and reads plays well.

He’s 51-14-9 as a leaf 2.t gaa with a .915 save %, he also has a career .915 save % in the post season. Jacks a bonafide starter and the best tender they’ve had since Balfour this high octane offence has to show up. They scored one goal in the deciding game yet it’s the goalies fault.


All those goalies who “steal“ games have great defensive cores in front of them. The leafs need to address their defence you can’t keep blaming goalies year after year.

I remember we had a goalie playing behind a porous defense and he sold games on the regular.
There is a guy named Cary Price that's done it for years.
This idea that goalies steal games because they have a great defense infront of them makes me think you don't quite grasp the concept of 'stealing a game'.
On the flip side, teams with great defense have off games, periods or even moments where a goalie and step in and steal a game.
Imagine a scenario where your team is up 3-2 late in the 3rd. They get called twice putting them on a long 5on3. Great defending or no there will be premium chances and there are but your goalie is a brick wall, stone the opposition multiple times on A+ chance after chance and you Wil 3-2. That could be goalie steals a game.
The scenarios are endless where a goalie can steal a game. If your defense is good it just happens less

 

[Dreakmur]

Let me break down the first goal of game 7 and why it was weak.

1) A modern goalie confident in his butterfly with with high-end flexibility extends his pad along the ice, keeps it angled and puts the puck into safety no problem. For some reason, Jack's kicksaves are crazy. He over-extends popping it into the slot, or he struggles to keep his leg along the ice opening up the 5 hole when he reaches. His physical mobility is average at best.

If you’re taking about him spreading his knees to extend his pad and opening the 5 hole, that’s pretty universally taught. Flex at the hip to keep the pad angled to deflect the puck off to the side.

If you’re talking about his knees coming off the ice when he butterflies, yeah that’s a technique issue.

 

[GardinerTheForward]

It isn’t so much that he cost the boys the series, but he certainly didn’t steal them a game which is something every team that goes on a run gets from their guy. If they can get a performance out of him say in game 4 this is over in 5 for Toronto, not the standard out in 7.

Did you watch Game 5

 

[makbeer]

If you’re taking about him spreading his knees to extend his pad and opening the 5 hole, that’s pretty universally taught. Flex at the hip to keep the pad angled to deflect the puck off to the side.

If you’re talking about his knees coming off the ice when he butterflies, yeah that’s a technique issue.

Yup, the pad lifting off the ice a lot when he extends.

Either technique issue or he has lingering groin or hip problems that limiting his flexibility.

 

[Gallagbi]

Probably the best backup in the league. Which is not trash. It makes him one of the top 40 goaltenders in the world.

but you’re not making a legitimate run at a cup if he’s your starter.

He is too technically flawed which leads to holes which leads to goals.

Below .900 since December and continued into the playoffs.

People overrate him because he’s a nice guy.

Bargain on his current deal, wouldn’t touch him over 3 mill.

(Similarly Mrazek was a brutal signing, he and Campbell are basically the same goalie - Mrazek is just a slightly worse version of Campbell).

I'm curious, who would you go after?

Talbot is the guy I wonder about, but youre rolling the dice

 

[Gallagbi]

This is an example of why I am annoyed at Jack's exaggerated movements and reactions. It's clear he hasn't been taught to understand where the real net is in relation to his positioning.

On the Pilat goal he reaches out to try to make a blocker save and the puck goes through his armpits.

But it if you look at what we call box control, you'll realise Jack already has the far post covered he doesn't need to extend at all. He's in great position. All he has to do is drop and the puck will hit him. His lack of understanding of what net he takes up causes him to open up and concede a goal the only way it could have been scored - through his body.

Ofc this diagram isn't 100% accurate given the angle but it would not be much different. At that depth (he's 2 feet out of the blue) and the puck carrier at that distance, Jack has to know he's not giving up any net to the left or right.

This is also why I am constantly questioning the coaching Jack is receiving because of some fundamental issues that have been here for the last 2 years.

I agree his positioning is bad in general, but that angle doesn't do anything to show it. It's camera instead of puck and it's not anywhere near the same. All of the lines are based off a false angle that the camera positions rather than the puck

 

[Mr Bill Waters]

I understand the desire for change at a time like this but I wouldn't go after anybody. Keep your powder dry. Give Mrazek and Campbell a full year. No panik buys Dubas. Goalies are Voodoo.

 

[OneTimer82]

It isn’t so much that he cost the boys the series, but he certainly didn’t steal them a game which is something every team that goes on a run gets from their guy. If they can get a performance out of him say in game 4 this is over in 5 for Toronto, not the standard out in 7.

I thought soupy was decent in the series; certainly was not responsible for the series loss.

Felt he made some very timely saves to keep the team in. His save on Kucherov late in game 5 at 3-3 is an example of this.

But in line with the general theme of this thread I’m unsure at this point if he’s the long term solution in net.

Dubas’ cap structure has put the team in a very difficult position. His gamble on mrazek and Campbell forming a solid tandem failed miserably.

Outside of restructuring the team to free up space we are stuck with soupy for the immediate future.

I think our scouts need research the best goalie options in the upcoming draft and maybe start from there.

 

[makbeer]

I agree his positioning is bad in general, but that angle doesn't do anything to show it. It's camera instead of puck and it's not anywhere near the same. All of the lines are based off a false angle that the camera positions rather than the puck

I was more arguing that he was in good position, he didn't need to extend with his blocker - which opened up unnecessary holes.

the camera does play a bit of tricks but it is not too far off if you are accurate drawing lines from puck to post (i used digital rulers so it's fairly accurate). I did have to guess puck position on the stick,

 

[tmlfan98]

If Kuemper doesn't re sign in Colorado, Leafs should take a run at signing him.

 

[OneTimer82]

This is an example of why I am annoyed at Jack's exaggerated movements and reactions. It's clear he hasn't been taught to understand where the real net is in relation to his positioning.

On the Pilat goal he reaches out to try to make a blocker save and the puck goes through his armpits.

But it if you look at what we call box control, you'll realise Jack already has the far post covered he doesn't need to extend at all. He's in great position. All he has to do is drop and the puck will hit him. His lack of understanding of what net he takes up causes him to open up and concede a goal the only way it could have been scored - through his body.

Ofc this diagram isn't 100% accurate given the angle but it would not be much different. At that depth (he's 2 feet out of the blue) and the puck carrier at that distance, Jack has to know he's not giving up any net to the left or right.

This is also why I am constantly questioning the coaching Jack is receiving because of some fundamental issues that have been here for the last 2 years.

Great post (very concise). This was an issue on more than one occasion during the series.

Hopefully it’s an issue he addresses / begins to work on in the off-season.

 

[makbeer]

I'm curious, who would you go after?

Talbot is the guy I wonder about, but youre rolling the dice

I try as much as I can to unload Mrazek and sign Campbell as a 1B at anything under 3m.

As for the other goalie Husso or Kuemper would be my targets if possible.