Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

[Habs Halifax]

Ok, you're the one making no sense, and yes taking like "how do you not comprehend that" is disrespectful.

We can discuss the issues, but if you can't be respectful we can't and you can go to hell.

What you said:
Suzuki, Dubois, Dach up the middle. Evans as 4C?

What I said:
Suzuki, Dubois, Monahan and with Dach as a puck possession winger on either Suzuki or Dubois's line.

You followed by saying we can't risk signing Monahan with no back up plan. Makes no sense, because Dach is the back up plan and can play 3C like you originally stated.

This is false. Rebuilding teams aren’t trading away first round picks for Christian Dvorak or going out of their way to acquire players like Josh Anderson. Weber, Price (if anybody was willing to take the contract), Gallagher, Danault, Tatar, Petry, etc all would’ve been sold. Former management was not rebuilding in the slightest, they were simply too incompetent to build a good team. They left the core untouched.

Not false. There are many pieces we are using today in our rebuild that comes before Gorton/Hughes. I smell Bergevin/Timmins hate on this one.

 

[nhlfan9191]

What you said:
Suzuki, Dubois, Dach up the middle. Evans as 4C?

What I said:
Suzuki, Dubois, Monahan and with Dach as a puck possession winger on either Suzuki or Dubois's line.

You followed by saying we can't risk signing Monahan with no back up plan. Makes no sense, because Dach is the back up plan and can play 3C like you originally stated.



Not false. There are many pieces we are using today in our rebuild that comes before Gorton/Hughes. I smell Bergevin/Timmins hate on this one.

A rebuild is when you blow up the core. As I pointed out, that did not happen. It has nothing to do with my dislike of Bergevin/Timmins.

 

[ReHabs]

I didn’t say we shouldn’t add good players, my entire point is not paying players that are just good money they aren’t worth. If we can get Dubois at Suzuki money, I would do it. Once you start going higher, it’s just poor asset management. We aren’t competing for a cup with players like Dubois as one of the main pieces of our core.

Cap flexibility is important during a rebuild. We’ve already been spending to the cap for this dumpster fire the past two years. It will be nice if HuGo could finally have a little bit of flexibility to work with. Teams should be able to insert 60-70 point players threw the draft. The reason we’ve had so few in years is because we were so piss poor at drafting and developing. That’s no reason to lower expectations and settle for less.

So now you're back to arguing about the perceived caphit.

Okay, let's assume he's got the same caphit as Suzuki give or take 10%.

"Teams should be able to insert 60-70 point players threw the draft. The reason we’ve had so few in years is because we were so piss poor at drafting and developing. That’s no reason to lower expectations and settle for less."

And if the Habs somehow buck the trend and somehow develop multiple 70pt players -- do you think they'll sign for less than they're worth?

You didn't answer -- how many 70pt players do you think the Habs have in the pipeline?

 

[Habs Halifax]

A rebuild is when you blow up the core. As I pointed out, that did not happen. It has nothing to do with my dislike of Bergevin/Timmins.

Like it or not, Bergevin/Timmins had high draft power starting in 2018 and there are many pieces they acquired that we are using in our rebuild today with Gorton/Hughes.

You're getting confused with Rebuild vs Team direction and long term vision flaws Bergevin had. Set that aside. Our rebuild did not start with Gorton/Hughes. It was accelerated with a proper long term vision.

Half or more of our current youth rebuild comes from Bergevin/Timmins. This is not an opinion, it's a fact.

 

[morhilane]

Drouin is Drouin. Dach is Dach. Dubois is Dubois. Robertson said Dubois was consistent before the injury.

How many complete games have you watched Dubois play this year?

This isn't about my opinion of Dubois, so how much I watched him is irrelevant. It's about the mass opinion who have barely seen Dubois playing. They have zero reasons to expect a super producer out of him, so they shouldn't be disappointed if he doesn't turn into one after/if joining the Habs.

Roberston opinion is irrelevant, unless the media start to use that to oversell Dubois. Which they will do, because the thing the franco media wants the most is a franco superstar and they think they can will it into existence.

They tried with Drouin, but Drouin drouined it. (aka Drouin's problem are the same since he started in the pros).

 

[nhlfan9191]

So now you're back to arguing about the perceived caphit.

Okay, let's assume he's got the same caphit as Suzuki give or take 10%.

"Teams should be able to insert 60-70 point players threw the draft. The reason we’ve had so few in years is because we were so piss poor at drafting and developing. That’s no reason to lower expectations and settle for less."

And if the Habs somehow buck the trend and somehow develop multiple 70pt players -- do you think they'll sign for less than they're worth?

You didn't answer -- how many 70pt players do you think the Habs have in the pipeline?

I never moved away from the caphit argument.. that’s been calculated into every post I’ve made on Dubois. If it came across that way, it’s because I’ve been having debates with multiple people and maybe didn’t make it clear enough. As far as who’s in the pipeline now, I’m hoping Suzuki, Caufield, Dach, and Slafkovsky can all hit that goal or higher. Maybe one or two of the magic beans like Roy. We’re also only in year 2 of the rebuild. We haven’t even gone into the second draft yet. I’m hoping there will be more.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Like it or not, Bergevin/Timmins had high draft power starting in 2018 and there are many pieces they acquired that we are using in our rebuild today with Gorton/Hughes.

You're getting confused with Rebuild vs Team direction and long term vision flaws Bergevin had. Set that aside. Our rebuild did not start with Gorton/Hughes. It was accelerated with a proper long term vision.

Half or more of our current youth rebuild comes from Bergevin/Timmins. This is not an opinion, it's a fact.

They picked in the top 5 once in 2018 and immediately went back to patching the already existing core. I think you’re the one confused. Bergevin said himself he had to build a team to compete In the present and all his moves back that. This “draft power” metric you use is irrelevant. All that tells us is the core he rode and eventually died with was a stinker.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They picked in the top 5 once in 2018 and immediately went back to patching the already existing core. I think you’re the one confused. Bergevin said himself he had to build a team to compete In the present and all his moves back that. This “draft power” metric you use is irrelevant. All that tells us is the core he rode and eventually died with was a stinker.

My draft power metric is not irrelevant. It's how we have a deep pool today. Fight it all you want... There are many pieces with our youth core that come from Bergevin/Timmins. Don't confuse Bergevin's 12 years of long term vision flaw vs what they did in the last few seasons where they had high draft power but still signed guys to stay in the middle.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I didn’t say we shouldn’t add good players, my entire point is not paying players that are just good money they aren’t worth. If we can get Dubois at Suzuki money, I would do it. Once you start going higher, it’s just poor asset management. We aren’t competing for a cup with players like Dubois as one of the main pieces of our core.

Cap flexibility is important during a rebuild. We’ve already been spending to the cap for this dumpster fire the past two years. It will be nice if HuGo could finally have a little bit of flexibility to work with. Teams should be able to insert 60-70 point players threw the draft. The reason we’ve had so few in years is because we were so piss poor at drafting and developing. That’s no reason to lower expectations and settle for less.

Yes, they should ..... but not only through the draft.

Strong but not necessarily superstar players should be accumulated by an means possible, so long as they are not overpaid.

Suzuki was not through the draft, Matheson (equivalent for d-men) was not through the draft. Dach (future 60 pt guy) was not through the draft. Three of our top 4 players did not come from the draft. Neither did our best goaltender.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes, they should ..... but not onl;y through the draft.

Strong but not necessarily superstar players should be accum,ulated by an merans possible, so long as they are not overpaid.

Suzuki was not through the draft, Matheson (equivalent for d-men) was not through the draft. Dach (future 60 pt guy) was not through the draft. Three of our top 4 players did not come from the draft. Neither did our best goaltender.

Agreed. Our rebuild it tracking more like the Rangers, Bruins, Cans than it is vs the Leafs or Oilers. If we get Bedard, that's a game changer and at a perfect time cause he comes with a deep youth already in place.

I'm still trading for Dubois regardless of a lottery win or not.

 

[nhlfan9191]

My draft power metric is not irrelevant. It's how we have a deep pool today. Fight it all you want... There are many pieces with our youth core that come from Bergevin/Timmins. Don't confuse Bergevin's 12 years of long term vision flaw vs what they did in the last few seasons where they had high draft power but still signed guys to stay in the middle.

By your logic, we were rebuilding during the Gainey/Gauthier era because they were able to draft Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Gallagher threw the draft.

 

[Habs Halifax]

By your logic, we were rebuilding during the Gainey/Gauthier era because they were able to draft Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Gallagher threw the draft.

You're trying to draw too many lines in separation narratives. Gainey/Gauthier didn't have good draft power from 08-11 drafts before Bergevin was hired but they did have Price, Subban, Patch, and Gallagher as good young pieces in the NHL. Today, we have both good young pieces in the NHL with more to come.

08-11 was some of the worse drafting you will see and a lot of that had to do with very low draft power. That was Bergevin's error. He thought Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc was a good pool and the 12 and 13 drafts would replenish it.

Fact: There are pieces in our rebuild that come from Bergevin/Timmins. Both on the NHL roster and in our prospect pool.

Rebuild vs Rebuild with better long term vision. Both are rebuilds but one had flaws.

 

[BaseballCoach]

The rebuild can't be attributed to Bergevin. He had some picks because he ran us into a 24th place team and all this while trying to WIN. He should have been fired long before covid hit and the TRUE rebuild could have started much earlier. It's pretense to say it wasn't called for because it was very vociferously. I give Bergevin all the credit he deserves which is NONE.

The Pacioretty trade was the only rebuild-like move of note that His Emptiness made, and it was in the summer of 2018.

Since that trade, MB held onto Tatar to the end, blundered completely with Gallagher, extended Petry too long, extended Byron and Armia for too much money, brought in 31 yo Hoffman for term and mishandled KK's career path. He allowed the value of his two best but aging players, Price and Weber, to be run into the ground on his watch with virtually no return.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The Pacioretty trade was the only rebuild-like move of note that His Emptiness made, and it was in the summer of 2018.

Since that trade, MB held onto Tatar to the end, blundered completely with Gallagher, extended Petry too long, extended Byron and Armia for too much money, brought in 31 yo Hoffman for term and mishandled KK's career path. He allowed the value of his two best but aging players, Price and Weber, to be run into the ground on his watch with virtually no return.

Both where Rebuilds

(18-22): Rebuild with flaws but still signing guys and shooting for playoffs
vs
(22+): Rebuild with proper long term vision and selling where you can

Fact: All of these pieces come from the Rebuild flaws from 18-22 years. Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Xhekaj, Harris, Roy, Farrell, Mailloux, Dobes.

 

[nhlfan9191]

You're trying to draw too many lines in separation narratives. Gainey/Gauthier didn't have good draft power from 08-11 drafts before Bergevin was hired but they did have Price, Subban, Patch, and Gallagher as good young pieces in the NHL. Today, we have both good young pieces in the NHL with more to come.

08-11 was some of the worse drafting you will see and a lot of that had to do with very low draft power. That was Bergevin's error. He thought Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc was a good pool and the 12 and 13 drafts would replenish it.

Fact: There are pieces in our rebuild that come from Bergevin/Timmins. Both on the NHL roster and in our prospect pool.

I never argued that there aren’t pieces from the Bergevin/Timmins era that are apart of our current rebuild. I’m saying they didn’t come from the result of a rebuilding team. You’re just flat out wrong on that and I’m confused why you’re even trying to debate that. I don’t know how I can be more clear on why you’re wrong.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I never argued that there aren’t pieces from the Bergevin/Timmins era that are apart of our current rebuild. I’m saying they didn’t come from the result of a rebuilding team. You’re just flat out wrong on that and I’m confused why you’re even trying to debate that. I don’t know how I can be more clear on why you’re wrong.

I know what you are saying. But what you are overlooking is due to your Bergevin/Timmins dislike. It's blinding you. From 18-22, there were rebuild parts of his strategy but it had flaws cause he was still trying to make the playoffs.

Both where Rebuilds

(18-22): Rebuild with flaws but still signing guys and shooting for playoffs
vs
(22+): Rebuild with proper long term vision and selling where you can

Fact: All of these pieces come from the Rebuild flaws from 18-22 years while we were still shooting for the playoffs. Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, Xhekaj, Harris, Roy, Farrell, Mailloux, Dobes.

 

[Rapala]

They picked in the top 5 once in 2018 and immediately went back to patching the already existing core. I think you’re the one confused. Bergevin said himself he had to build a team to compete In the present and all his moves back that. This “draft power” metric you use is irrelevant. All that tells us is the core he rode and eventually died with was a stinker.

I'm definitely not confused. Our core started going downhill the moment Bergevin didn't make a move to improve it following his first ECF. The trade for Weber should never have happened. If you felt you had to move Subban great then you should be getting multiple pieces back like just about every other organization that ever made a move of that magnitude. There isn't one aspect of his managerial style that appealed to me not one. Wasteland contracts wasted assets ill thought out trades and useless TDL acquisitions all point to the same thing. Someone holding a position far above his pay grade and or mental capacity. Molson also took the brunt of my ire. I was the very first person to suggest he should fire himself as president on this board and basically got laughed at. That was the first and only thread I ever made. Check the time stamp if you wish and understand just how far back that regime was known to be a farce. Everything that has transpired since has only validated that take.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I know what you are saying. But what you are overlooking is due to your Bergevin/Timmins dislike. It's blinding you. From 18-22, there were rebuild parts of his strategy but it had flaws cause he was still trying to make the playoffs.

Both where Rebuilds

(18-22): Rebuild with flaws but still signing guys and shooting for playoffs
vs
(22+): Rebuild with proper long term vision and selling where you can

Fact: All of these pieces come from the Rebuild flaws from 18-22 years while we were still shooting for the playoffs. Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, Xhekaj, Harris, Roy, Farrell, Mailloux, Dobes.

Outside of Suzuki, everyone of the players you mentioned weren’t rebuild type moves. They were just guys picked up as a result on where we were drafting on any given season. I’ve said it multiple times now, he didn’t touch the core. That’s what the definition of a rebuild is. If your argument was he retooled the roster a bit then sure. But the core he had been using since 2015 was still pretty much intact with the exception of Subban who he swapped for Weber. Price, Weber, Petry, Gallagher, Drouin were the nucleus he built around for years and he never went away from that. He built around them. So I don’t know what your argument is there. And you keep bringing up my dislike for Bergevin/Timmins when that really has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Outside of Suzuki, everyone of the players you mentioned weren’t rebuild type moves. They were just guys picked up as a result on where we were drafting on any given season. I’ve said it multiple times now, he didn’t touch the core. That’s what the definition of a rebuild is. If your argument was he retooled the roster a bit then sure. But the core he had been using since 2015 was still pretty much intact with the exception of Subban who he swapped for Weber. Price, Weber, Petry, Gallagher, Drouin were the nucleus he built around for years and he never went away from that. He built around them. So I don’t know what your argument is there. And you keep bringing up my dislike for Bergevin/Timmins when that really has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

Why didn't Bergevin trade several picks from 18-22 years to make the team better?

 

[Wats]

I know what you are saying. But what you are overlooking is due to your Bergevin/Timmins dislike. It's blinding you. From 18-22, there were rebuild parts of his strategy but it had flaws cause he was still trying to make the playoffs.

Both where Rebuilds

(18-22): Rebuild with flaws but still signing guys and shooting for playoffs
vs
(22+): Rebuild with proper long term vision and selling where you can

Fact: All of these pieces come from the Rebuild flaws from 18-22 years while we were still shooting for the playoffs. Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Guhle, Xhekaj, Harris, Roy, Farrell, Mailloux, Dobes.

Feel like you invented a new kind of rebuild to fit your narrative. How can you rebuild (trade away veteran/non-long term assets/expiring deals) and still try to make playoffs? What makes more sense is they were trying to make playoffs, failed, and sold off some expiring contracts. That is not a rebuild.

 

[Wats]

Why didn't Bergevin trade several picks from 18-22 years to make the team better?

Bergevin rarely traded picks to make team better in general, even in 13-17. Petry was the best one, Vanek/Shaw ended up being a waste. One of his biggest flaws during his tenure is not doing anything of value during that cheap cap/prime career window with Markov/Subban/Pacioretty/Plekanec/Price.

And MB did trade picks to make team better from 18-22:
2021 1st (CAR) + 2024 2nd (MTL) for Dvorak
2020 3rd (WSH) for Allen

 

[nhlfan9191]

Why didn't Bergevin trade several picks from 18-22 years to make the team better?

Dvorak, Gustafsson, Staal, Anderson(3rd), Edmunston, Allen, Scandella, Thompson were all aquired for picks. The only reason there aren’t a lot more is because the team was hardly competing during that stretch despite their best efforts too. So again, you’re wrong on this too.

 

[Naslundforever]

Is that all he said ?

It was during one of those « live chats » on La Presse answering fan questions… Said he would wait on his autonomy. No insight, but nice to see somewhat level headed media in mtl.

 

[Egresch]

Changing curtain in your room is not rebuild. You paint walls, change curtains, flooring, lamps. You can keep few favourite pieces of your furniture for sure.
Please, stick to the topic - PLD.

 

[ZUKI]

The rebuild can't be attributed to Bergevin. He had some picks because he ran us into a 24th place team and all this while trying to WIN. He should have been fired long before covid hit and the TRUE rebuild could have started much earlier. It's pretense to say it wasn't called for because it was very vociferously. I give Bergevin all the credit he deserves which is NONE.

Sorry but the topic here is about Dubois. I don't think it's usefull to repeat here, what you have said many, many times . It's redundant after 2-3 years , we all know your position on Bergevin.