I think this is a broken clock twice a day situation, it wasn't the right choice because they decided that KK would be better then Danault and then ended up giving up KK for Dvorak. Which ended up kickstarting the rebuild but Would you rather have Dvorak at 4.5 or danault at 5,5
Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?
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Catanddogguitarrr
Registered User
Habs are trying to built a winning team with only one franchise Center (Koivu or Suzuki). Habs fans bash any other center, they are never good enough, Habs don't make PO most of the time or are eliminated in first round. Top line of the Habs are small players, most of them. This is the identity of the Habs and will always be. We want small warriors with CHaracter, we don't want a player who wanted out of Tortorella (God himself) and we don't want a player who doesn't want to live in Winnipeg and doesn't want to raise his children there.
WeThreeKings
Demidov is a HAB
I would rather have the picks from the KK offersheet or have retained KK and matched.
Bergevin's logic that led to Danault leaving wasn't the right logic but him leaving was the right thing for the franchise.
Brutalizing the development and relationship with KK to the point he was a target and someone who accepted an OS was a bad thing for the franchise, letting him go for the compensation was an OK choice.
Trading that compensation for Dvorak was a terrible choice.
My issue is really that some people will still chew themselves up inside over every move that leads to value gone but in the grand scheme, we needed the direction we ended up on, so the decisions Bergevin made after that cup final run, plus the injuries, all led to the franchise doing the right thing for the first time in decades and finally getting the right people in charge.
Ultimately I wouldn't change a thing.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
Well said. Remember when our fan base said we are set up the middle with Suzuki and KK and Danault is just some average 3C. Well, some fans are doing it again with Suzuki, Dach and are saying we don't need Dubois.
Team Canada is pretty effective at building rosters where some centers play wing but it's talent with talent and some in our fan base don't want to consider Dach as a puck possession monster on wing? Makes no sense at all.
Dubois turns the needle at center in the physical area for the playoffs and so does Anderson as a winger. But yeah, fans say we don't need them and then say, we should draft Benson
This is the roster some fans are building: Look at all the skill guys and you don't need physical players anymore.
Caufield / Suzuki / Benson
Slaf / Dach / RHP
Farrell / Beck / Roy
Heineman / Kidney / Mysak
Catanddogguitarrr
Registered User
Beleive me, he would rather have Dvorak at 4,5 than Danault at 5,5. That was said by almost all the posters here and still today lot of posters think that. People here have that rebuilt theory and everything goes into that motiv/logic. It's a trow-in concept that allows all sort of non-sense hockey discussion. Like evaluate a player who never played a single game in NHL to be better than a proven 24 yrs old nhl player. Like taking some evaluation of a prospect and then make future lines with prospect players like if they were the next Crosby. And there is no doubt in their minds. A proven player of the NHL is nothing for them, they always put names of unproven prospect in the top six line-up and they think they are some genious.
And still today some posters quote Dvorak as a very very good player. And they think Dvo can be used in a trade to get PLD, I see that often. Gezzz
LaP
Registered User
Definitely Danault. But my definitive answer would be neither. Danault is much better than Dvorak but he would not move the needle. He would only make this team a bottom 10 instead of a bottom 5. MB simply did not evaluate this team properly. He got caugh by the surprinsing COVID performance of this team where it was given a free pass to make the playoffs in years 1 and then surprised an old jaded Pens team and made the playoffs in year 2 by finishing 18th despite playing in one of the worst division i've seen since the 2005 lockout and then went on a Cinderella run on the back of Weber and Price playing injured before retiring. It is my hunble opinion that the correct answer after not matching was to keep the 1st and rebuild. Matching JK's offersheet and rebuildiung after would have been fine too. Any answer not including rebuild is the wrong one.
Strange answer. If you are for a rebuild then YOU MUST 100% be against Dvorak.Beleive me, he would rather have Dvorak at 4,5 than Danault at 5,5. That was said by almost all the posters here and still today lot of posters think that. People here have that rebuilt theory and everything goes into that motiv/logic. It's a trow-in concept that allows all sort of non-sense hockey discussion. Like evaluate a player who never played a single game in NHL to be better than a proven 24 yrs old nhl player. Like taking some evaluation of a prospect and then make future lines with prospect players like if they were the next Crosby. And there is no doubt in their minds. A proven player of the NHL is nothing for them, they always put names of unproven prospect in the top six line-up and they think they are some genious.
And still today some posters quote Dvorak as a very very good player. And they think Dvo can be used in a trade to get PLD, I see that often. Gezzz
Catanddogguitarrr
Registered User
Spring in Fialta
A malign star kept him
How did they f*** up in not trading him? He was a key cog to a finals appearance.
Fans have every right to hold grudges. Doesn't mean they're not idiot for doing so. They don't owe us their lives or careers.
LaP
Registered User
For the guys who think this was a good team that could have been salvaged here's the performance of the 6 years in between the gerat collapse where it was clear the team was carried by Price and the season before Weber and Price retired :
2015-2016 : 22nd (the great collapse after Price's injury)
2016-2017 : 7th
2017-2018 : 28th
2018-2019 : 14th
2019-2020 : 24th
2020-2021 : 18th (playing in the fake Canadian division)
Anyone who see a good team there is a lunatic. The 7th place finish an the cinderella run were both on the back of Price being Price again. In 2016-2027 he had a 923 saves % and a 2.23 GAA. In the 2020 cup run he had a 924 saves % and a 2.28 GAA. All this while playing in front of a pretty bad team. Prime Price would made our current lineup a playoffs bound team easily.
With both Price and Weber on the verge of retiring this team was heading toward a rebuild there should have been no doubt about that. Giving a 1st and a 2nd to acquire Dvorak was a dumb move. Giving that contract to Gallagher was even worse. Not selling Gallagher, Petry and Danault at the 2020 deadline when the team was 24th in the league was war criminal status.
2015-2016 : 22nd (the great collapse after Price's injury)
2016-2017 : 7th
2017-2018 : 28th
2018-2019 : 14th
2019-2020 : 24th
2020-2021 : 18th (playing in the fake Canadian division)
Anyone who see a good team there is a lunatic. The 7th place finish an the cinderella run were both on the back of Price being Price again. In 2016-2027 he had a 923 saves % and a 2.23 GAA. In the 2020 cup run he had a 924 saves % and a 2.28 GAA. All this while playing in front of a pretty bad team. Prime Price would made our current lineup a playoffs bound team easily.
With both Price and Weber on the verge of retiring this team was heading toward a rebuild there should have been no doubt about that. Giving a 1st and a 2nd to acquire Dvorak was a dumb move. Giving that contract to Gallagher was even worse. Not selling Gallagher, Petry and Danault at the 2020 deadline when the team was 24th in the league was war criminal status.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
Habs offer slightly more than what a 24 TDL price would be and other teams don't beat it cause they don't like their chances at extending him. Happens on draft day.
Beck (late 1st equivalent)
Habs 2nd (37-40 range... contenders can't offer that)
Gurianov (NHL contract)
Tuch (Grade B add)
Dubois signs for 8x $8M with lots of signing bonus money factored in.
Habs draft Smith with our pick and trade down to get Reinbacher with the Panthers 1st. We use the 24 Avs 2nd and our 23 early 3rd to trade from 16 to 12.
Dubois, Smith, Reinbacher added to our system.
Beck (late 1st equivalent)
Habs 2nd (37-40 range... contenders can't offer that)
Gurianov (NHL contract)
Tuch (Grade B add)
Dubois signs for 8x $8M with lots of signing bonus money factored in.
Habs draft Smith with our pick and trade down to get Reinbacher with the Panthers 1st. We use the 24 Avs 2nd and our 23 early 3rd to trade from 16 to 12.
Dubois, Smith, Reinbacher added to our system.
LaP
Registered User
I guess you did not read my post. No i think we had to rebuild. And in this context the only two logical answers are keeping JK or taking the 1st. Signing Danault or trading for Dvorak are the wrong answers. The chances to get a top 6 center with a late 1st are very very low so keeping JK just in case was not a wrong answer. Not that a think JK will become more than a 3rd line center but rebuilding is a process and 3rd overall pick retain a goof value for a while. I mean TB got Sergachev for Drouin when it was already clear Drouin's attitude was problematic.
He didn't say rebuild AROUND. He said rebuild. KK should at least be a decent 3c. Which would mean they would have needed one centre to fill the top 3. Dvorak was and is shit and not even worth a 1st. So after the moves MB was left with one centre.
And I'm sure some of these same fans find it perfectly normal to quit their day job if there's something they're not happy about. Or get a new job because it pays more or offers better conditions. How dare these players want something better for themselves and their family!
26Mats
Registered User
- Jun 23, 2018
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All of those mistakes were a blessing, because it allowed us to get rid of previous management and get one that has more functionning brain cells than muscle fibers.
WeThreeKings
Demidov is a HAB
Beleive me, he would rather have Dvorak at 4,5 than Danault at 5,5. That was said by almost all the posters here and still today lot of posters think that. People here have that rebuilt theory and everything goes into that motiv/logic. It's a trow-in concept that allows all sort of non-sense hockey discussion. Like evaluate a player who never played a single game in NHL to be better than a proven 24 yrs old nhl player. Like taking some evaluation of a prospect and then make future lines with prospect players like if they were the next Crosby. And there is no doubt in their minds. A proven player of the NHL is nothing for them, they always put names of unproven prospect in the top six line-up and they think they are some genious.
And still today some posters quote Dvorak as a very very good player. And they think Dvo can be used in a trade to get PLD, I see that often. Gezzz
No, I definitely would not want either on my team. I was one of the few who hated the Dvorak acquisition and a lot of people defended it saying he'd score more here with better opportunity, blah blah, and I didn't buy it at all.
If Danault is still here, signed, then the Habs would not have been as bad as they were defensively, and they may never collapse enough in the standings to get Bergevin fired.. and even if the outcome is the same, what is the point of a Danault in a rebuild? They traded many good players like Toffoli and Lehkonen, all valuable to a team, to rebuild and do this thing right.
And Dvorak is included in proposals for PLD not as some centerpiece but to give back a roster C and also balance money, do you know how trades work in the NHL?
It seems like a lot of the assumptions you are making is just poor reading comprehension.
Catanddogguitarrr
Registered User
BLONG7
Registered User
Zero is right..............and agreed not a huge fan of PLD, but the kid can skate and play and will initiate contact while playing, meanwhile the other runs from it all the while wearing a non contact jersey for the 6th year.
The End is Near..........almost everyone will be glad to see Drou gone.................
As for PLD, there is no way the Jets get much from the habs, they painted themselves into this corner. If they keep him, he walks and they get nothing if the habs go the offer sheet route. Pretty sure he gets dealt at the draft. The Jets will take futures, in picks and prospects....
Beendair Donedat
You sold a dead bird to a blind kid????
I agree, and I think he's amenable to it as well, when he did the interview where he said money isn't everything and that he wants to win cups. That being said, he's not going to work for free of course, but if he's serious about wanting to play here and long term, I see him accepting an 8 x 8, which is pretty decent to sign a number one, physical two way center in his prime.
Mostly when they have too, because the player negotiated a NTC/NMC in their contract.
But the majority of the time, GMs don't really take into consideration a player's desires when they want to trade them or waive them.
I mean, yes fans have the right to hold grudges against players - it's just misguided IMO.
I mean, imagine working a regular job and your boss having the ability to relocate you at a moment's notice.
Catanddogguitarrr
Registered User
I can accept the idea of a rebuild that sacrifice good players and we can compare Danault with Lehkonen, Toffoli, Chiarot and Eller. But a fact remain, Habs picked the wrond second center for a rebuilt. Dvorak is signed too long term for the time rebuilt (and he's also too old for that timing) and the best situation would have been a younger C who could mature exactly when he become 23 or 23. Kotkaniemi filled that request. But thing is, Kotkaniemi wasn't the right pick at 3rd or maybe his developpment here s**** up a little or just a look at our coaching staff here and in Laval under Lefebvre. But anyway KK became some kind of flop. I mean he wasn't the right choice for that center position either. I would like more a kind of prospect like Beck but even when you think your team will be able to compete for SC you can choose between the center you will draft and developp (question mark, we don't know who he is), or, or, a 34 yrs old Danault who still can skate and make his same play year after year.
Let's bet on that : when Danault will be 34 he will be better overall than younger Kotkaniemi and younger Dvorak.
WeThreeKings
Demidov is a HAB
Bergevin didn't pick Dvorak to center a rebuild.. they picked Dvorak to replace Danault/Kotkaniemi and remain a competitive team. Bergevin's miscalculations and terrible roster construction finally caught up to him and led to his dismissal and a new management team.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
Exactly how I perceive the context we have come to know. I'm not 95% like Friedman he is coming to the Habs but I am around 60-80%
8x $8M is fair and I keep repeating it, both Larkin and Horvat didn't get singing bonus money. They got slightly higher cap hits so $8M for Dubois with lots of signing bonus structure (more than 50% of the contract), is a deal I think he considers that for sure.
Dubois is interested in the Habs and the Habs are interested in Dubois. Anybody trying to downplay that are reaching at this point. The major question is cost to trade and what other teams try to jump in the mix where Dubois considers them to in the sign/trade. Avs worry me to be honest. But then, I wonder what do they have to trade that trumps what we offer?
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