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Post-Game Talk: ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

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“Would you rather that the Habs trade for Dubois or instead wait and try to sign him when he becomes

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Belial said:
Well they'll trade Vilardi in a couple of seasons also :laugh:
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The Kings? Sure, I mean he's RFA right now so, if he doesn't want to sign in Winnipeg, this entire thing is just a "show de boucane" really.

It would be a bit shortsighted for Winnipeg to do any deal before the first round of the draft is completed also IMHO.
 
ReHabs said:
Ylonen, Heineman, etc. What's their upside? It's not likely they're be PLD, Ylonen is only one year younger than PLD to begin with and he's not even a full-fledged NHLer! Barring miracles he will never be as good as PLD. The goal isn't to optimize and maximize individual trade values -- it's not possible even, given the limited TOI available to dish out. Good players get more TOI and more shifts with other good players, they tend to produce more because of it. I feel PLD in our top6 helps our top6 more than sticking Ylonen or another one of these prospects in there.

The only prospect we have who is in line for a top6 role in the near future is Slafkovsky. Everyone else has too many question marks for us to plan to accommodate - Mesar, Roy, etc are not serious bluechip prospects.. If a prospect is good enough to earn top6 minutes, then we're blessed to have scoring depth. Let them cook in the AHL and elsewhere until the force the GM's hand to make a move to accommodate them.

The question is: What's the long-term cost of not having developed these not-bluechip prospects? I'm not really sure there's an answer but I feel like the cost is insignificant compared to the gains. A strong top6 player locked into the core, size up front (finally), general effects like having our other top6 playrs play with a superior quality linemate, and an overabundance of quantity dished away for quality.

This is all notwithstanding the trade cost -- maybe we simply don't have the pieces WPG wants, and we cannot lambast the leaders for it -- but after two tank seasons and with all this prospect pool depth everybody raves about and being so close to the contract limit with so much spare cap space I find it strange we still hear the "prices are too high" excuse.

Maybe they plan to tank next year. I don't see it but maybe that's the case. But it would be strange of them to half-ass tank the Bedard year, to the extent of letting players play on broken bones, but go for it next year, no?
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This doesn't negate anything I've posted and you choose to ingnore the path I've suggested we take. If HuGo are certain Dubois is a core piece going forward and that he is seriously wanting to put on a Habs jersey we have absolutely no reason to cough up assets to acquire him 1 yr early. If however he is looking to maximize his AAV they may just feel he isn't a player worth the assets the money and the term. What happens if they acquire him and he just can't produce like people expect him to. PLD may not be their ideal does that compute? He hasn't had a break out season since he was drafted and he didn't exploit the opportunity Winnipeg gave him to take the team under his wing. I just don't get how you can be so cock robin sure we won't have better opportunities down the road. They know what he wants as pointed out in a recent article and if they aren't blinking you can be damn sure they have a good reason. The negativity you project with your prose towards the organization is frankly getting old. Can we rebuild in peace?
 
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Rapala said:
This doesn't negate anything I've posted and you choose to ingnore the path I've suggested we take. If HuGo are certain Dubois is a core piece going forward and that he is seriously wanting to put on a Habs jersey we have absolutely no reason to cough up assets to acquire him 1 yr early. If however he is looking to maximize his AAV they may just feel he isn't a player worth the assets the money and the term. What happens if they acquire him and he just can't produce like people expect him to. PLD may not be their ideal does that compute? He hasn't had a break out season since he was drafted and he didn't exploit the opportunity Winnipeg gave him to take the team under his wing. I just don't get how you can be so cock robin sure we won't have better opportunities down the road. They know what he wants as pointed out in a recent article and if they aren't blinking you can be damn sure they have a good reason. The negativity you project with your prose towards the organization is frankly getting old. Can we rebuild in peace?
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We were having a discussion, I wasn't seeking to negate what you said. It seems to me you agreed with my earlier response.

I don't think PLD is any more than he is today, that is to say a bona fide top6 forward for any NHL team but especially ours given his size and age.

But your logic says Hughes shouldn't have acquired Kirby Dach because he hadn't broken out yet either and didn't take advantage of the opportunities he received in his last year with Chicago either. So what is wrong with this picture?

I don't know how to respond to your final comment. I thought we were talking about the PLD trade -- there's 300 pages of comments about it -- some supporting some opposing, why single me out?
 
ReHabs said:
Ylonen, Heineman, etc. What's their upside? It's not likely they're be PLD, Ylonen is only one year younger than PLD to begin with and he's not even a full-fledged NHLer! Barring miracles he will never be as good as PLD. The goal isn't to optimize and maximize individual trade values -- it's not possible even, given the limited TOI available to dish out. Good players get more TOI and more shifts with other good players, they tend to produce more because of it. I feel PLD in our top6 helps our top6 more than sticking Ylonen or another one of these prospects in there.

The only prospect we have who is in line for a top6 role in the near future is Slafkovsky. Everyone else has too many question marks for us to plan to accommodate - Mesar, Roy, etc are not serious bluechip prospects.. If a prospect is good enough to earn top6 minutes, then we're blessed to have scoring depth. Let them cook in the AHL and elsewhere until the force the GM's hand to make a move to accommodate them.

The question is: What's the long-term cost of not having developed these not-bluechip prospects? I'm not really sure there's an answer but I feel like the cost is insignificant compared to the gains. A strong top6 player locked into the core, size up front (finally), general effects like having our other top6 playrs play with a superior quality linemate, and an overabundance of quantity dished away for quality.

This is all notwithstanding the trade cost -- maybe we simply don't have the pieces WPG wants, and we cannot lambast the leaders for it -- but after two tank seasons and with all this prospect pool depth everybody raves about and being so close to the contract limit with so much spare cap space I find it strange we still hear the "prices are too high" excuse.

Maybe they plan to tank next year. I don't see it but maybe that's the case. But it would be strange of them to half-ass tank the Bedard year, to the extent of letting players play on broken bones, but go for it next year, no?
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Very good post, rare to read a post with intelligence here.
 
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PLD is a good regular season player that still needs to prove he can upgrade his game in the playoffs. Would have been a heck of a acquisition as a UFA. In a trade, IF we don't empty one positoin to fill another one, it would have been great too. No need to do another Drouin vs Sergachev and I'm even talking about a Drouin that would have worked. We emptied a spot to fill another one. Best way to not move in any direction.

The only way it works for the Habs in a trade would have been to hope that the Jets love Dvorak. That the Jets would have love a Jordan Harris. And would think that our 31st pick this year can amount to something great, either by keeping it or by trading it again. You could even have hope that they like prospects like Ylonen. Or maybe even Mesar or Farrell.

But shipping out Slaf, or Guhle or top enders like that empties, again, a spot, to fill another one. I don't see it. You do it when you go all in and you feel that PLD is what is missing for a REAL shot at the Cup. We might very well still miss the playoffs. Might very well finish bottom 10. We are not there yet.
 
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So Pagnotta on TSN 690 radio now saying Kings and Dubois negotiating since yesterday aft. Lebrun in Athletic an hour ago days there’s been no contact between Dubois and his camp and Kings. Someone is very wrong.
 
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Garry Valk said:
So Pagnotta on TSN 690 radio now saying Kings and Dubois negotiating since yesterday aft. Lebrun in Athletic an hour ago days there’s been no contact between Dubois and his camp and Kings. Someone is very wrong.
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Likeliest story: Lebrun's article is out of date.

If they weren't negotiating, PLD's camp or WPG would've put water on that fire by now.
 
26Mats said:
Reports were Winnipeg asked for Dach. Hughes said no. Hughes countered with a deal around Anderson and Dvorak. Winnipeg said no.

Honestly, I don't think Winnipeg had much of an appetite to move below a Dach type of return that early in the process. Vilardi + is the type of return they were hoping to get, I suspect.
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It's too bad after all these years of rebuilt and draft choices we don't have anythibg to offer than equals Vilardi. Of course we don't want to give Caufield, Suzuki and Dach. That tells how much our dept with forwards are low compared to most nhl teams. If Peg don't want any of our so called promising forwards (Farrell, Mysak, Mesar, Roy), we just have to watch LA improve, eventually they will be able to beat Oilers in PO and move forward. We, Habs, will watch the parade of the others, and having a long long time rebuilding. Sad.
 
Garry Valk said:
So Pagnotta on TSN 690 radio now saying Kings and Dubois negotiating since yesterday aft. Lebrun in Athletic an hour ago days there’s been no contact between Dubois and his camp and Kings. Someone is very wrong.
Click to expand...

Lebrun is like a top 3 insider, Pagnotta is like bottom 3 of the those we consider "insiders".

I'm assuming Pagnotta is wrong
 
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ReHabs said:
We were having a discussion, I wasn't seeking to negate what you said. It seems to me you agreed with my earlier response.

I don't think PLD is any more than he is today, that is to say a bona fide top6 forward for any NHL team but especially ours given his size and age.

But your logic says Hughes shouldn't have acquired Kirby Dach because he hadn't broken out yet either and didn't take advantage of the opportunities he received in his last year with Chicago either. So what is wrong with this picture?

I don't know how to respond to your final comment. I thought we were talking about the PLD trade -- there's 300 pages of comments about it -- some supporting some opposing, why single me out?
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I agree with your premise that we need to drastically improve the top six. My point is there are far more ways to skin a cat than jumping all over a deal you may not be comfortable with. The idea of getting a better understanding of the value of our prospects is primordial in a rebuild. I understand you don't think there is a heck of a lot there. If that is the case we need to bail on players before they die on the vine with absolutely no value. Top six players are costly
and that we aren't tanking puposely is a given, We need assets to package and we need as much cap as possible to take advantage of teams in distress.
 
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