Owen Wilson
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He'll likely be the first to go...simply in terms of the value they would get for him.
Not to mention the fact there's no way Shatkins forks out for his next contract demands.
Blue Jays Discussion: It's a bird, it's a plane, it's Kevin Pillar!
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Not to mention the fact there's no way Shatkins forks out for his next contract demands.
Diamond Joe Quimby
A$AP Joffrey
If one year is a "gap" then AA had a chasm. And this is me not laying any blame on him for his AGM years.
Diamond Joe Quimby
A$AP Joffrey
There are a lot of fickle fans, you don't have to read too many posts to see this.
zeke
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2014-15: Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Pillar, Travis.
the opposite of a chasm.
So far 2016 is a one year gap.
We'll see which kids arrive this year.
TF97
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Eyedea
The Legend Continues
There is a way, but it involves them either tying a significant portion of the payroll towards one player (while all of the young players are going through arb), or ownership providing more money to spend.
phillipmike
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DJQ made his comments at 1:04pm and 9 minutes later you say "and all those teams have had one year "gaps" where a new kid didn't come up."
Amazing you can reel off 6 team's prospects debut off the top of your head; amazing i only had to look at one team's prospect debut to refute your statement.
Thats your problem zeke... you get into a discussion with someone... they make a legit point and then you just say something... anything.... to discredit them without doing the research. Then someone like me looks it up... does some research to prove that your point isnt accurate then you ignore it and then move onto another false statement.
2006-2016 Boston Red Sox:
2006: Pedoria, Murphy
2007: Ellsbury, Moss
2008: Lowrie
2009: Reddick
2010: Kalish, Anderson, Nava
2011: Lavarnway, Iglesias
2012: Middlebrooks
2013: Bogaerts, Bradley Jr.
2014: Betts, Vázquez
2015: Shaw, Swihart
2016: Benintendi, Moncada
And that doesnt include the top position prospects they traded for MLB help like Rizzo. These guys werent all All-Stars but steady contributors at one point or another early in their careers. Something the Jays didnt really have under AA.
While i dont agree with anyone laying into AA because he did a fine job building the team up from nothing but like everyone has flaws and one of them was drafting and developing position players - you need both to survive. And if you say everyone else has similar problems then that shouldnt be good enough; if you want to be better than the competition then you need to be good developing pitching and position players. Like it or not if you cant develop position players then you are trading for them or signing them to top dollar (see Martin, Edwin, Tulo, Donaldson, Bautista etc.) - kills your payroll. Only real players of substance that AA drafted/signed and developed from the position side were Pillar, Hechavarria and Pompey in a total of 6 years as GM. AA was a fine GM but he does deserve some criticism for his position player draft record.
zeke
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ShaneFalco
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Suntouchable13
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Zeke, I would be very interested in your listing things that you think AA wasn't amazing at.
I say this because I think he was an amazing GM and I really wish he was still around, but he made plenty of mistakes (some that were blatantly obvious at the time, some only in retrospect)... yet I've had plenty of conversations with people who hate Shapiro and Atkins and will passionately defend literally every single move AA ever made. Every draft pick was the right one. Every trade was brilliant.
I just don't get it. He was outstanding, but that doesn't mean you have to defend everything, and those who are open to discussing some of his imperfections aren't automatically anti-AA or Rogers apologists.
I say this because I think he was an amazing GM and I really wish he was still around, but he made plenty of mistakes (some that were blatantly obvious at the time, some only in retrospect)... yet I've had plenty of conversations with people who hate Shapiro and Atkins and will passionately defend literally every single move AA ever made. Every draft pick was the right one. Every trade was brilliant.
I just don't get it. He was outstanding, but that doesn't mean you have to defend everything, and those who are open to discussing some of his imperfections aren't automatically anti-AA or Rogers apologists.
This year, it's basically been really bad luck (.500 BABIP and 33.3% strand rate, both of which are impossible to sustain). A ton of K's and a reasonable walk rate are things I would happily bet on.
phillipmike
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Kalish put up 0.4 WAR that season (11th best and their 3rd best OF) -Good bench player in 2010
Nava Had the 4th best wRC+ on the team among OFs and then put up 1, 1.7 and 2.6 WAR seasons - solid 3 years
Anderson wasnt anything special but was the 87th ranked prospect pre-2010 and Boston traded him for Steven Wright
Lavarnway Was a positive contributor in the 17 games he played. 0.2 WAR
Iglesias His impact didnt really come until 2013 when he was used in a trade to land Jake Peavy who the Red Sox win a world series.
Middlebrooks put up a 121 wRC+ in 2012 (his rookie year) and was their starting 3B on their WS team.
Not all have to be long term stars. It helps if they did something in those respective years (like Kalish and Middlebrooks) but also if they had subsequent success or brought you value in trade. Ill take some of those cheap young players on the Jays right now if it only meant 1-2 years as a fill in or pieces i could trade for MLB help.
Keep in mind the 2010-2012 team period was when the sold their farm for Adrian Gonzalez. Could have had Anthony Rizzo in there plus 2011 when Epstein stepped down so they had Cherrington rebuilding that system. So not their best years of bringing position players, still worth noting the pipeline was still churning out players.
And the Gm in charge who brought this into Boston when he was in the FO;
...now works for the Jays.
Most of those players are bad and contributed very little. There's no more value in developing those kinds of guys in the minors than there is picking up some similarly valuable, cheap, controllable guys off the waiver wire.
They're the equivalent to Ryan Goins. Meh.
phillipmike
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AA wasnt perfect but i liked him running the Jays. He was a genius in some areas but needed to work on others. Like a player a GM learns and develops on the job, i believe Dayton Moore was given 9 years before he got the Royals in the playoffs. AA had it harder in the AL East and Rogers failed to see that or have patience but i understand the timeline to hire Shapiro. They made a deal with him in June promising him things that they probably regret when September came around (final say on Baseball decisions) and probably how they treated AA's friend Beeston. They messed up but unfortunately have to move on as he did.
My problem isnt that AA left the upper level cupboards bare - he drafted and developed those prospects its his prerogative to use them to fill MLB; my problem is that people are blaming Shapiro/Atkins for not making the 2017 team better when their hands were tied based on the type of team they inherited.
It was the oldest team in baseball with many players making over 13M per. This off-season had didnt have a lot of stars to acquire... around almost a billion dollars less was spent on the open market comparing it to the 2015-2016 off-season. Your holes were many, your money was limited and your upper level prospects were non existent and you would be scooping from the bottom of the barrel if you traded any of them for help. It wasnt a great hand Shapiro/Atkins were dealt unlike many think. They just saw 2015 ALCS and think it is a good team - yeah the 2015 team was good but with our player's ages it doesnt guarantee 2016 or 2017 would follow suit. 2016 remained untouched with the exception of Price and Revere and the Jays got better results in Happ and Saunders in 2016 to replace them and the team still wasnt as good as 2015 because of injury and regression... it happens but not their fault and now the 2017 is experiencing more regression.
Shapiro and Atkins deserve some time and unfortunately with these injures the 2017 team may need to undergo a retool unless they start winning and winning a lot and fast.
Now if we are sitting here 5 years from now and Shapiro/Atkins havent developed any good position players or pitchers then you better believe i will join you Zeke in outlining their developing failures but they have only been on the job for 18 months and 1 draft about to be 2 - they deserve more time.
My problem isnt that AA left the upper level cupboards bare - he drafted and developed those prospects its his prerogative to use them to fill MLB; my problem is that people are blaming Shapiro/Atkins for not making the 2017 team better when their hands were tied based on the type of team they inherited.
It was the oldest team in baseball with many players making over 13M per. This off-season had didnt have a lot of stars to acquire... around almost a billion dollars less was spent on the open market comparing it to the 2015-2016 off-season. Your holes were many, your money was limited and your upper level prospects were non existent and you would be scooping from the bottom of the barrel if you traded any of them for help. It wasnt a great hand Shapiro/Atkins were dealt unlike many think. They just saw 2015 ALCS and think it is a good team - yeah the 2015 team was good but with our player's ages it doesnt guarantee 2016 or 2017 would follow suit. 2016 remained untouched with the exception of Price and Revere and the Jays got better results in Happ and Saunders in 2016 to replace them and the team still wasnt as good as 2015 because of injury and regression... it happens but not their fault and now the 2017 is experiencing more regression.
Shapiro and Atkins deserve some time and unfortunately with these injures the 2017 team may need to undergo a retool unless they start winning and winning a lot and fast.
Now if we are sitting here 5 years from now and Shapiro/Atkins havent developed any good position players or pitchers then you better believe i will join you Zeke in outlining their developing failures but they have only been on the job for 18 months and 1 draft about to be 2 - they deserve more time.
phillipmike
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Better to have something than nothing. Nava had three solid years. Middlebrooks was good for his rookie season. Like i said you arent going to get studs every year but having pre-arb players fill your lineup and provide some value is worth a lot to a team vs trying to fill them via FA or in trade.
I think those three years show that the Red Sox didnt make the playoffs in 2010, 2011 and 2012 after making it in 6 out of the last 7 due to their lack of prospect coming through. They were really too much on their vets.
ShaneFalco
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Eyedea
The Legend Continues
Rookie year Middlebrooks had a lot of hype around him. That was a legitimately good season but he never received the babip luck after that (and also struggled defensively). Think of him as like a half rookie season Eric Hinske.
Nava was 2nd in OBP for the 2013 Red Sox (behind Ortiz) and had a 144 wRC+ against righties. Also had solid 2012 and 2014 seasons for them. Think of him as like a Frank Catalanotto.
With regards to Jose Iglesias, he's a solid defensive shortstop based off of UZR and has okay on base skills for his position. In saying that his value still stretches far beyond what Ryan Goins has achieved to date in the majors. He's Yunel Escobar with a little less erratic play.
Nava was 2nd in OBP for the 2013 Red Sox (behind Ortiz) and had a 144 wRC+ against righties. Also had solid 2012 and 2014 seasons for them. Think of him as like a Frank Catalanotto.
With regards to Jose Iglesias, he's a solid defensive shortstop based off of UZR and has okay on base skills for his position. In saying that his value still stretches far beyond what Ryan Goins has achieved to date in the majors. He's Yunel Escobar with a little less erratic play.
And that's exactly my point. Developing multiple 0-1 WAR players isn't a good example of a team constantly churning out talent because those players, while they're certainly cost-efficient, don't provide any better value than, say, a waiver wire claim like Chris Colabello or a minor league free agent like Ezequiel Carrera, both of whom were acquired for nothing and came in with multiple pre-arb years.
Cheap bench players coming from within the system is a good thing, but it's no better (or harder to find, or more expensive) than finding them in other ways.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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Wat? now you're counting traded prospects? and 0.2war players? and negative war players?
Does that mean I should be counting Gose (1.3 w/jays since 2014), Pompey (0.4), Burns(0.0), Goins (-0.2), Sierra (-0.5), Hechavarria (traded), Hutchison (3.6), Loup (0.7), Barnes (0.5), Graveman (0.1), Norris (0.0), Castro (-0.1), Boyd (-0.4), Hoffman (traded)?
zeke
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using red sox prospect overhype to justify red sox prospect overhype doesn't work.
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