Blue Jays Discussion: It's a bird, it's a plane, it's Kevin Pillar!

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zeke

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You have Gurriel and Borucki too low IMO, Rios a bit too high (ceiling is limited), and I'd easily put Greene over Maese who has way less stuff and isn't performing any better two levels below.

Gurriel at 9 is the biggest flaw.

Gurriel maybe, but with his lack of track record and advanced age I couldn't put him any higher than those top-8 guys, all of whom I really like.

I don't agree on your Borucki/Rios call - both are 2-pitch pitchers with command and questionable velo, but Rios is a full 2 years ahead of Borucki as a 22yr old in AA, and has put up as good or better numbers every step of the way.

As for Maese, I think he's one of the most underrated Jays prospects. What he's done at his age/levels is excellent. His sinking fastball is a bigtime pitch, just like Greene's heater. Even this year his ERA is inflated but the rest of his numbers look good as usual. I like Greene but his lack of command is really hurting him, and last year he was just awful through and through, so for me he has to work his way back to the status he earned after his breakout 2015 (when, for ehatever reason, he displayed excellent command and dominated as a result).
 

zeke

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Norbeto Obeso. I think he belongs in Lansing right now. Very advanced at the plate with elite plate discipline. I have a feeling we see him blow through Bluefield and Vancouver.

Yorman Rodriguez is another one to keep an eye on. Probably not top 25 yet but I think he's another guy who will sneak up on people's radar.

There is a couple other hitters I like but they are projects at the moment much like Vicuna and Gudino.

On the pitching front I really like Maximo Castillo and Alvaro Galindo. They will probably take a year or two in short season before appearing on prospect radars but they have live arms. Yennsy Diaz is a little more advanced and could make some noise this year.

Definitely like Yorman. Good call. I think he's top-20 unless he has a disaster year this year.

Obeso though really should be in full season ball by now as he's almost 21. I'll wait and see on all those pitchers, too. None have been very good in north america yet.
 

Bad News Benning

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Definitely like Yorman. Good call. I think he's top-20 unless he has a disaster year this year.

Obeso though really should be in full season ball by now as he's almost 21. I'll wait and see on all those pitchers, too. None have been very good in north america yet.

I expect Obeso will be in Dunedin at some point next year so not too worried about his age. He walks a **** ton and doesn't strike out much so unless babip totally abandons him he will put up some nice numbers in Vancouver this year (and Lansing if a outfield spot opens up at the end of the year).
 

metafour

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Gurriel maybe, but with his lack of track record and advanced age I couldn't put him any higher than those top-8 guys, all of whom I really like.

You have to at some point consider why they paid over $20 million for Gurriel. Yes he's been hurt, but I think that you are overstating the relevance of his age. Injury plus weather is why he is in Dunedin, so the fact that he is 23.5 really isn't some indicator to his future upside. Lack of track record is fair, but there are several guys above him on your list who really haven't done much to suggest that they are better prospects, even with Gurriel out.

I don't agree on your Borucki/Rios call - both are 2-pitch pitchers with command and questionable velo, but Rios is a full 2 years ahead of Borucki as a 22yr old in AA, and has put up as good or better numbers every step of the way.

Borucki is a LHP who routinely hits 94/95 in his starts; his changeup is also one of the best secondary pitches in our system. Rios is ~90-92 as a RH starter with a pretty good albeit inconsistent slider, but like a lot of guys who come up with fringy stuff, his ceiling is likely limited to ~5th starter or mid-relief in the majors. You underestimate Borucki's stuff big time, his arm is easily superior to Rios. Rios is sitting at 6.04 K/9 in AA and was at 6.45 last year in A+, so you're already seeing a guy who isn't overpowering batters.

The biggest thing you need to look at is what the Blue Jays themselves think: they placed Borucki on the 40-man despite the fact that he's only in Dunedin and has a history of health problems. They left Rios unprotected despite the fact that he is younger and further ahead in level.

As for Maese, I think he's one of the most underrated Jays prospects. What he's done at his age/levels is excellent. His sinking fastball is a bigtime pitch, just like Greene's heater. Even this year his ERA is inflated but the rest of his numbers look good as usual. I like Greene but his lack of command is really hurting him, and last year he was just awful through and through, so for me he has to work his way back to the status he earned after his breakout 2015 (when, for ehatever reason, he displayed excellent command and dominated as a result).

How is Maese underrated? He shot up rankings pretty quickly and consistently. My point on Maese vs. Greene is that Maese isn't outperforming him two levels down and he also doesn't have as obviously explosive stuff, thus I'm not really sure what makes you think that Maese is the clear choice here. Yes Greene is a cluster*****, but you seriously understate Maese's struggles this year: his strikeouts are down and his walks are also up. He's at a pedestrian 6.43 K/9 and 3.21 BB/9, so I'm not really sure what you see when you say that the rest of his numbers "look good" when his WHIP is at an ugly 1.71 and batters are hitting .319 against him (38 hits in 28 innings). It should also be noted that Greene is also actually inducing way more GB's than Maese this season, so even with the sinkerball profile of Maese, Greene actually outperforms him in this regard as well.

Again, this isn't even a case of me "loving" Greene, its more a case of the fact that Maese is really disappointing so far this season, thus I really can't see the argument to rank him over a pitcher with better raw stuff, who is outperforming him at a much higher level.
 

zeke

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You have to at some point consider why they paid over $20 million for Gurriel. Yes he's been hurt, but I think that you are overstating the relevance of his age. Injury plus weather is why he is in Dunedin, so the fact that he is 23.5 really isn't some indicator to his future upside. Lack of track record is fair, but there are several guys above him on your list who really haven't done much to suggest that they are better prospects, even with Gurriel out.

Eh, we've had plenty of cubans get paid good money to come over. Some have worked out, some haven't. $3m per year is a decent chunk but not a huge gamble, and not near as much as some flops have got. And unfortunately Gurriel's cuban stats don't pop off the page, and that has mattered in the past (see: Rusney). I was pleasantly surprised with how he looked in the couple of at bats I saw him in the spring, though. The thing is to match up with what the guys ranked above him are doing he's going to have to excel all the way up in AAA this year for me, and given that they were going to start him in single A i'm not even sure they think that's realistic.

Borucki is a LHP who routinely hits 94/95 in his starts; his changeup is also one of the best secondary pitches in our system. Rios is ~90-92 as a RH starter with a pretty good albeit inconsistent slider, but like a lot of guys who come up with fringy stuff, his ceiling is likely limited to ~5th starter or mid-relief in the majors. You underestimate Borucki's stuff big time, his arm is easily superior to Rios. Rios is sitting at 6.04 K/9 in AA and was at 6.45 last year in A+, so you're already seeing a guy who isn't overpowering batters.

eh you're spinning a bit there - both of these guys sit low 90s with their fastballs. Borucki might have a tick or two on him there but it's not much. Borucki has a great change, and Rios has a good slider. Both need work on their 3rd pitches, which means as of now they both look likelier to be relievers than starters.

But more importantly Rios has simply outclassed Borucki performance wise so far, and has excelled while being of age or young for his level, while Borucki has been a good 2yrs old for his levels for the most part, including this year, and has been good but not dominant:

A+

Rios (21-21): 90.2ip, 17.4k%/5.6b%, 3.47era, 3.40fip, 3.59xfip
Borucki (22-23): 43.0ip, 18.5k%/9.2b%, 9.63era, 6.31fip, 3.85xfip

A

Rios (21-21): 30.0ip, 35.8k%/6.7b%, 1.20era, 1.61fip, 2.14xfip
Borucki (22-22): 115.2ip, 23.2k%/5.6b%, 2.41era, 2.54fip, 3.02xfip

A-

Rios (20-20): 65.1ip, 20.6k%/8.7b%, 4.27era, 3.28fip, 3.65xfip
Borucki (20-21): 28.1ip, 25.2k%/5.4b%, 2.22era, 3.01fip, 3.19xfip

The biggest thing you need to look at is what the Blue Jays themselves think: they placed Borucki on the 40-man despite the fact that he's only in Dunedin and has a history of health problems. They left Rios unprotected despite the fact that he is younger and further ahead in level.

eh, like with Gurriel, the "Front Office likes him" argument isn't too convincing to me.

How is Maese underrated? He shot up rankings pretty quickly and consistently. My point on Maese vs. Greene is that Maese isn't outperforming him two levels down and he also doesn't have as obviously explosive stuff, thus I'm not really sure what makes you think that Maese is the clear choice here. Yes Greene is a cluster*****, but you seriously understate Maese's struggles this year: his strikeouts are down and his walks are also up. He's at a pedestrian 6.43 K/9 and 3.21 BB/9, so I'm not really sure what you see when you say that the rest of his numbers "look good" when his WHIP is at an ugly 1.71 and batters are hitting .319 against him (38 hits in 28 innings). It should also be noted that Greene is also actually inducing way more GB's than Maese this season, so even with the sinkerball profile of Maese, Greene actually outperforms him in this regard as well.

Again, this isn't even a case of me "loving" Greene, its more a case of the fact that Maese is really disappointing so far this season, thus I really can't see the argument to rank him over a pitcher with better raw stuff, who is outperforming him at a much higher level.

I think Maese is underrated because what he did last year while young for the level was more impressive than any other jays pitcher other than SRF...and well ahead of what SRF had done at 19. For me, coming into the year, he was the clearcut #2 jays pitching prospect and just a tick outside our top 5 prospects. So for me he's underrated when prospecters still rank the likes of Harris ahead of him.

As for his numbers this year, you're wildly exaggerating - his 3.12fip is good and 4.09xfip ok - his ERA is inflated but that's largely due to a likely unlucky .380babip. Hasn't been a great start but he has plenty of leeway after his great year last year for me, just like Greene has to do a lot more of this before I forget last year's disaster. And while they are 2 levels apart, they are also 2 years apart, so the level argument only goes so far.

I'd also gues they kept him at the same level to work specifically on his slider, which might explain some of his struggles if he's throwing his worst pitch more on purpose. And you're probably underrating his pure stuff - he has a nasty mid-90s heavy sinking fastball that makes him a groundball machine. It's probably as good a pitch as Greene's high 90s heater, and both have similar secondary stuff.

And really, Greene hasn't been all that great this year either. Basically neither of them have been good/bad enough this year to move the needle much on how I ranked them coming into the year.
 

shaner8989

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When does this pile of trash get blown up?

I'm actually looking forward to a rebuild. Watching this trash is of zero interest
 

stickty111

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When does this pile of trash get blown up?

I'm actually looking forward to a rebuild. Watching this trash is of zero interest

When AA is the one who build this team, this should have been expected. He doesnt know how to build a sustainable contender. He only makes movies so he can look good in front of the camera.
Shapiro knows how to create a good team and should do a better job than AA ever did.
 

Discoverer

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Gurriel starting the season in Dunedin had nothing to do with skill or major league readiness.
 

hoglund

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When AA is the one who build this team, this should have been expected. He doesnt know how to build a sustainable contender. He only makes movies so he can look good in front of the camera.
Shapiro knows how to create a good team and should do a better job than AA ever did.

Everyone was in love with AA when the Jays went to back to back playoffs, but now that they're struggling it's all his fault? Yeah ok...
 

BertCorbeau

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Everyone was in love with AA when the Jays went to back to back playoffs, but now that they're struggling it's all his fault? Yeah ok...

I know, right.

It was common sense back then that the team wasn't built for long term contention. The window was small, they missed, and now we're seeing the remains. Team is ripe for a rebuild. At least they're not struggling around the Mendoza line and giving false hopes. They're just showing they're not a good team anymore :laugh:
 

ShaneFalco

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How many years did the Jays go without playoffs? I have no problem with the moves AA made to get them there.
We're in a bit of a tough situation now, but with some bold moves and with our young talent, as others have said, this could be turned around fairly quickly
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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The moves AA made two summers ago (Price, Tulo, etc) or two winters ago (Donaldson, Martin, Estrada) should not be criticized by anyone. They are all good moves. That part of his resume is spotless, and will likely end up in him getting another GM role shortly.

Moreover, the young, cheap, sustainable portion of this roster (Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis, Pillar) was fully acquired by him, so there's so no valid argument there either.

Now if one wants to make an intelligent argument regarding the lack of up and coming cost controlled position players (of which there is an evident gap between what should have arrived already and the Rowdy/Alford/Urena crop) then so be it. That is a flaw of AA's that is hard to deny.
 

TheTotalPackage

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Everyone was in love with AA when the Jays went to back to back playoffs, but now that they're struggling it's all his fault? Yeah ok...

I thought AA went for it at the exact right time he should have gone for it. I also think he left the Jays in great shape going forward. Save for a few mishaps, just like every GM is prone to, he's still golden in my books.
 

hoglund

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I thought AA went for it at the exact right time he should have gone for it. I also think he left the Jays in great shape going forward. Save for a few mishaps, just like every GM is prone to, he's still golden in my books.

I agree, AA has nothing to be ashamed of, the Jays went back to back playoffs, many teams go 10 years or more without a post season game.
 

zeke

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Now if one wants to make an intelligent argument regarding the lack of up and coming cost controlled position players (of which there is an evident gap between what should have arrived already and the Rowdy/Alford/Urena crop) then so be it. That is a flaw of AA's that is hard to deny.

Not sure where the idea came from that teams should be expected to keep churning out good young mlb ready players every year, especially when they're contending.

And even then, after adding Stroman, Sanchez, Osuna, Pillar, Travis, (Pompey) over his last couple years here, AA's next crop of guys are imminent - a few will likely contribute this year yet.
 

theaub

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Not sure where the idea came from that teams should be expected to keep churning out good young mlb ready players every year, especially when they're contending.

Probably because basically every good team that contends on a semi-regular basis does so?

The Jays absolute inability to develop position players over the last 10 years has been embarrassing. The only thing I'll defend AA on is that he drafted a bunch of pitching that he then turned into position player assets.
 

zeke

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I mean, if AA's great sin is that the next GM had to wait a whole year before the next crop of kids starting contributing, he was probably pretty good.
 

zeke

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Probably because basically every good team that contends on a semi-regular basis does so?

The Jays absolute inability to develop position players over the last 10 years has been embarrassing. The only thing I'll defend AA on is that he drafted a bunch of pitching that he then turned into position player assets.

This pretense that position players are more important than pitchers is fake news.
 

Owen Wilson

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Wasn't everyone clamoring for AA to step and do something to not let Bautista and Encarnacion's prime years go to waste?

Well...he did just that, made some bold moves and they made the playoffs in 2 straight seasons.

Personally, I think on paper this team was still able to contend for a playoff spot this year but the horrid start and injuries starting to pile up is just making it clear that it wasn't meant to be.

Now Shatkins can really continue their plan that they were going to do back in 2015 before the magical 2 month turnaround.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

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Not sure where the idea came from that teams should be expected to keep churning out good young mlb ready players every year, especially when they're contending.

And even then, after adding Stroman, Sanchez, Osuna, Pillar, Travis, (Pompey) over his last couple years here, AA's next crop of guys are imminent - a few will likely contribute this year yet.

Good franchises are able to sustain lengthy quality runs by reinforcing their cores with developing young position players.

St. Louis, the Dodgers, the Giants, Pittsburgh, the Rangers, and the Red Sox have all been able to extend their runs because of their development of position players.

As far as AA's crop goes, there's a gap. There's a group that should have or could have been here in 15/16/17 to fill holes that is not (i.e. Sweeney, Hawkins, Knecht, Thon, Mims, Anderson, Smith Jr., Davis, Nay, Parmley, Phillips). You don't expect all, or even half of those guys, but given the draft slot and bonus money allocated to them, one or two would have helped. I'm not talking stars either; simply viable major league contributors.
 

Woodman19

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Good franchises are able to sustain lengthy quality runs by reinforcing their cores with developing young position players.

St. Louis, the Dodgers, the Giants, Pittsburgh, the Rangers, and the Red Sox have all been able to extend their runs because of their development of position players.

As far as AA's crop goes, there's a gap. There's a group that should have or could have been here in 15/16/17 to fill holes that is not (i.e. Sweeney, Hawkins, Knecht, Thon, Mims, Anderson, Smith Jr., Davis, Nay, Parmley, Phillips). You don't expect all, or even half of those guys, but given the draft slot and bonus money allocated to them, one or two would have helped. I'm not talking stars either; simply viable major league contributors.
Speaking of Smith Jr, he's having a great start to the season. It would be fantastic at this point if he could be a serviceable bat 4th OF type.
 

SpezDispenser

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The only players I don't want to lose are Donaldson first and foremost, then Sanchez, Stroman and Osuna. Anyone else can go.

I'm scared Donaldson gets traded though.
 

zeke

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Looks like Rowdy has recovered from his slow start (quicker than he has the past few years):

First 11gms: 45pa, 6.7b%/26.7k%, .179bip/.167avg, .143iso, 40wrc+
Last 12gms: 46pa, 19.6b%/17.4k%, .321bip/.278avg, .139iso, 142wrc+

Still not showing his power yet but at least it looks like he's made an adjustment and stopped chasing the junk.
 

ShaneFalco

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The only players I don't want to lose are Donaldson first and foremost, then Sanchez, Stroman and Osuna. Anyone else can go.

I'm scared Donaldson gets traded though.

Gotta trade him. They said it well here:

Josh Donaldson, 3B: This is the controversial move. Donaldson isn’t a free agent after this year; he still has one year left on his deal. He’s also currently injured, but while a calf strain will keep him sidelined at least for another week or so, there’s no long-term concern over something like that. The issue of trading Donaldson is almost ideological. It’s a referendum on two things: first, whether or not this Jays roster can win as currently constructed. Given that “as currently constructed†now only covers 2017 and 2018 as far as Donaldson is concerned, and 2017 looks like something of a lost cause, the answer might well be that no, it can’t. In that case, the extra year of control on Donaldson might better the haul that the Jays can extract in return for his services. The second thing trading Donaldson is a referendum on is whether or not this Jays team is willing to keep and pay for superstar production from superstar players. The answer to that is also probably no, given how David Price and Edwin Encarnacion were handled, but Donaldson is the true test for how Mark Shapiro’s front office will handle the demands of their fan base. The third baseman is easily the current face of the franchise.

https://www.fanragsports.com/mlb/blue-jays/blue-jays-consider-trading-stars-like-donaldson-others/
 

zeke

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Good franchises are able to sustain lengthy quality runs by reinforcing their cores with developing young position players.

St. Louis, the Dodgers, the Giants, Pittsburgh, the Rangers, and the Red Sox have all been able to extend their runs because of their development of position players.

As far as AA's crop goes, there's a gap. There's a group that should have or could have been here in 15/16/17 to fill holes that is not (i.e. Sweeney, Hawkins, Knecht, Thon, Mims, Anderson, Smith Jr., Davis, Nay, Parmley, Phillips). You don't expect all, or even half of those guys, but given the draft slot and bonus money allocated to them, one or two would have helped. I'm not talking stars either; simply viable major league contributors.

again, the differntiation between pitchers and position players is fake news.

and all those teams have had one year "gaps" where a new kid didn't come up.
 
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