Proposal: Isles-Sens

[Bossy Mike]

Who is "you guys"? I'm not a Senators fan.

And you're not understanding that person's post if you think they believe Stone = Tavares. They're saying that's pretty much the only player on the Isles they'd want for Stone. It would be like an Islanders fan saying "The only Oiler I'd trade Hamonic for is McDavid". Doesn't mean they think Hamonic = McDavid.

Besides, I quoted you for the bolded. Nelson did not produce anywhere close to Stone. So your bolded statement was incorrect. In fact, ironically enough, the gap between Tavares and Stones' production last year was a lot closer than the gap between Stone and Nelson's.

I'm not sure how to bold stuff here, but yes, Stone may be worth more than the second most valuable "piece" that the isles have. That's why the isles would offer more than one "piece". Not every trade is one for one. Sometimes, teams trade 2 good players for one better player. But to include Tavares in a trade for stone is asinine.

 

[Clamshells]

I'm not sure how to bold stuff here, but yes, Stone may be worth more than the second most valuable "piece" that the isles have. That's why the isles would offer more than one "piece". Not every trade is one for one. Sometimes, teams trade 2 good players for one better player. But to include Tavares in a trade for stone is asinine.

Well Ottawa could just add a second piece to Stone for Tavares. Then it's totally fair!

Surely my team is the only one not interested in trading its top forward for depth!

 

[Bossy Mike]

Well Ottawa could just add a second piece to Stone for Tavares. Then it's totally fair!

Surely my team is the only one not interested in trading its top forward for depth!

Yes, theoretically, the sens could trade stone for Tavares. But they'd have to add more than they have. I have issues with ek, so I'm not interested in any offer you could come up with.

Maybe it's just best to say that the isles would not want to pay for stone what the sens would be asking for. Like all fans, you overvalue your players. When/if stuff happens, we'll see.

 

[stempniaksen]

Wiercioch was the one carrying Ceci. You can see that Wiercioch's numbers away from Ceci are better, while Ceci's numbers away from Wiercioch are worse.

Wow. Just wow.

Is that why Wierioch wasn't qualified and allowed to walk as a UFA? The Senators literally had 0 offers for him when they tried to move him (which probably means no other team in the league would have qualified him a that price) that's from the GM's mouth directly.

I'm all for advanced stats, and I think in the right context they bring tremendous value. But when all you do is look at the advanced stats you open yourself up to looking like a doorknob. Patrick Wiercioch is the poster child of anti-advanced stats, because if you'd have watched him for more than 2 minutes you'd know he wasn't able of carrying anything.

No offence to Isles fans, but a handful of you in this thread have shown quite nicely that you haven't watched a lick of the Senators over the last couple of years (I mean, outside of Karlsson why would you?) with the comments that Wiercioch > Ceci and that Brock Nelson+ is a fair offer for Mark Stone.

 

[Gavin Ray]

Aaaand any shred of credibility is lost. If Wier was carrying Ceci, why is Ceci a big part of our core, and Wiercioch allowed to walk, and as yet, without a job? You just proved you either haven't watched any Sens games last year, or don't know anything about hockey.

lmao because I don't agree with you I know nothing about hockey. I'm not saying Wiercioch is great, nor am I even a big fan of his. What I'm saying is that Ceci brings down every teammate that he plays with. He makes those around him worse, and this is true for every partner he has had, whether it is Wiercioch or Methot.

 

[Bossy Mike]

Wow. Just wow.

Is that why Wierioch wasn't qualified and allowed to walk as a UFA? The Senators literally had 0 offers for him when they tried to move him (which probably means no other team in the league would have qualified him a that price) that's from the GM's mouth directly.

I'm all for advanced stats, and I think in the right context they bring tremendous value. But when all you do is look at the advanced stats you open yourself up to looking like a doorknob. Patrick Wiercioch is the poster child of anti-advanced stats, because if you'd have watched him for more than 2 minutes you'd know he wasn't able of carrying anything.

No offence to Isles fans, but a handful of you in this thread have shown quite nicely that you haven't watched a lick of the Senators over the last couple of years (I mean, outside of Karlsson why would you?) with the comments that Wiercioch > Ceci and that Brock Nelson+ is a fair offer for Mark Stone.

Ok. So are we done here?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not sure how to bold stuff here, but yes, Stone may be worth more than the second most valuable "piece" that the isles have. That's why the isles would offer more than one "piece". Not every trade is one for one. Sometimes, teams trade 2 good players for one better player. But to include Tavares in a trade for stone is asinine.

And trading Stone for Nelson+ does what, exactly, for the Senators? From their perspective, what does it accomplish trading for a lesser player?

That's one of the major issues with the OP proposal. The Sens trade Stone for Nelson and only get Bailey to offset the difference? How does Nelson and Bailey make the Senators a better team than they are with just Stone?

Truthfully, that's the problem with pretty much all of these "quality for quantity" deals. They don't make the team giving up the best player better.

 

[internetdotcom]

lmao because I don't agree with you I know nothing about hockey. I'm not saying Wiercioch is great, nor am I even a big fan of his. What I'm saying is that Ceci brings down every teammate that he plays with. He makes those around him worse, and this is true for every partner he has had, whether it is Wiercioch or Methot.

Um, no, actually, the idiots that were paired with Ceci dragged him down, making Ceci have to cover for all their boneheaded and idiotic plays. Its the Wiercioches and Cowens of the world that made Ceci look bad, not the other way around. Funny how Ceci didn't bring down Phaneuf or make him worse. In fact, once Ceci got Phaneuf to play with, i.e. the only even competent D partner he's had since making the NHL, he looked fantastic.

Then again, if you watched some Sens games, you'd know that. Actually, I'm curious, how many Sens games DID you watch last season for example? Because I, and most Sens fans, watched nearly 80 games last year alone. How many did you watch... a shift and a half?

You should just give up while you're far, far behind.

 

[Bossy Mike]

And trading Stone for Nelson+ does what, exactly, for the Senators? From their perspective, what does it accomplish trading for a lesser player?

That's one of the major issues with the OP proposal. The Sens trade Stone for Nelson and only get Bailey to offset the difference? How does Nelson and Bailey make the Senators a better team than they are with just Stone?

Truthfully, that's the problem with pretty much all of these "quality for quantity" deals. They don't make the team giving up the best player better.

Yes. It rarely happens that the team giving up the better player is happy receiving two good players in return. It happens occasionally and both teams' fans end up disappointed with what they get. I think it's best to think about the value your players have to other teams. Since that would never happen, no one should make trade proposals. We should only allow debate over what has already happened. I've been here about a month and I'm already tired of the **** that gets proposed.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Yes. It rarely happens that the team giving up the better player is happy receiving two good players in return. It happens occasionally and both teams' fans end up disappointed with what they get. I think it's best to think about the value your players have to other teams. Since that would never happen, no one should make trade proposals. We should only allow debate over what has already happened. I've been here about a month and I'm already tired of the **** that gets proposed.

Three golden rules:

1. Does it meet your teams needs?
2. Does it meet the other teams needs?
3. Is the value fair?

On HF, hope that you get 2/3.

In this case, you could argue fair value, and that it meets the needs for the Isles. However, Sens are already full of middle six forwards with prospects knocking on the door, so why would they trade their best forward for lesser pieces?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yes. It rarely happens that the team giving up the better player is happy receiving two good players in return. It happens occasionally and both teams' fans end up disappointed with what they get. I think it's best to think about the value your players have to other teams. Since that would never happen, no one should make trade proposals. We should only allow debate over what has already happened. I've been here about a month and I'm already tired of the **** that gets proposed.

Not really. I've seen some proposals on here that try to look at both teams' needs, not just their own team's.

Sure, it's rare, because fans on here seem to want to get the other team's best players without giving up anything in the process. But there are some decent proposals in cases where the OP actually looks at the trade from both teams' perspectives.

That just isn't the case with this specific trade proposal.

 

[Bossy Mike]

And trading Stone for Nelson+ does what, exactly, for the Senators? From their perspective, what does it accomplish trading for a lesser player?

That's one of the major issues with the OP proposal. The Sens trade Stone for Nelson and only get Bailey to offset the difference? How does Nelson and Bailey make the Senators a better team than they are with just Stone?

Truthfully, that's the problem with pretty much all of these "quality for quantity" deals. They don't make the team giving up the best player better.

Yes. It rarely happens that the team giving up the better player is happy receiving two good players in return. It happens occasionally and both teams' fans end up disappointed with what they get. I think it's best to think about the value your players have to other teams. Since that would never happen, no one should make trade proposals. We should only allow debate over what has already happened. I've been here about a month and I'm already tired of the **** that gets proposed.

 

[Gavin Ray]

Um, no, actually, the idiots that were paired with Ceci dragged him down, making Ceci have to cover for all their boneheaded and idiotic plays. Its the Wiercioches and Cowens of the world that made Ceci look bad, not the other way around. Funny how Ceci didn't bring down Phaneuf or make him worse. In fact, once Ceci got Phaneuf to play with, i.e. the only even competent D partner he's had since making the NHL, he looked fantastic.

Then again, if you watched some Sens games, you'd know that. Actually, I'm curious, how many Sens games DID you watch last season for example? Because I, and most Sens fans, watched nearly 80 games last year alone. How many did you watch... a shift and a half?

You should just give up while you're far, far behind.

lol I am a sens fan, and I watched every single senators game as well. From what I've seen Ceci is awesome offensively, but is atrocious defensively, every game he gets caught in his own end and is outshot badly. It doesn't mean I like Cowen or Wiercioch, or think that they are particularly good.

Interestingly enough, Ceci played with Methot more than he played with Cowen, is Methot not a competent D? How come he wasn't good even when paired with him?

I am also a fan of analytics. And it just so happens that Ceci did in fact bring down the possession metrics of every single player he paired with. In fact, Phaneuf is the perfect example since his possession away from Ceci was ridiculously higher. Ceci sinks his teammates no matter who his teammate is. Its time to stop blaming who he plays with and point the finger at him. http://www.corsica.hockey/combos/

I don't want to come off as a Ceci hater, because the truth I like him and want him to keep improving and cement himself as a top 4 defenceman. I just find that sens fans really overvalue him and put him in a light that he doesn't deserve... yet. For example saying that he is better than Calvin De Haan, who is already an established top 4 guy that excels at driving possession and makes all the players around him better.

 

[internetdotcom]

lol I am a sens fan, and I watched every single senators game as well. From what I've seen Ceci is awesome offensively, but is atrocious defensively, every game he gets caught in his own end and is outshot badly. It doesn't mean I like Cowen or Wiercioch, or think that they are particularly good.

Interestingly enough, Ceci played with Methot more than he played with Cowen, is Methot not a competent D? How come he wasn't good even when paired with him?

I am also a fan of analytics. And it just so happens that Ceci did in fact bring down the possession metrics of every single player he paired with. In fact, Phaneuf is the perfect example since his possession away from Ceci was ridiculously higher. Ceci sinks his teammates no matter who his teammate is. Its time to stop blaming who he plays with and point the finger at him. http://www.corsica.hockey/combos/

I don't want to come off as a Ceci hater, because the truth I like him and want him to keep improving and cement himself as a top 4 defenceman. I just find that sens fans really overvalue him and put him in a light that he doesn't deserve... yet. For example saying that he is better than Calvin De Haan, who is already an established top 4 guy that excels at driving possession and makes all the players around him better.

Sens fan huh? Could've knocked me over with a feather. I guess you just see what you want to see, because pretty much EVERY Sens fan that has posted in this thread thinks you are completely out to lunch. But hey, you are right, and dozens of Sens fans posting here, and Sens coaching staff, and Sens scouts, and Sens management, are all wrong? Somehow I think I'm going to side with my fellow Sens fans and the whole organization who got rid of Cowen and Wier for dragging Ceci down. I don't know what you have against him, because you are hiding behind Corsi/analytics numbers. You know what's a better judge of a player's ability? WATCHING the player play the game. I don't know, maybe he stole your girlfriend or something, but you are way off base with Ceci.

Now can we get this thread back to the original proposals? I don't know how the topic of the thread changed from Stone to Ceci.

 

[Gavin Ray]

Sens fan huh? Could've knocked me over with a feather. I guess you just see what you want to see, because pretty much EVERY Sens fan that has posted in this thread thinks you are completely out to lunch. But hey, you are right, and dozens of Sens fans posting here, and Sens coaching staff, and Sens scouts, and Sens management, are all wrong? Somehow I think I'm going to side with my fellow Sens fans and the whole organization who got rid of Cowen and Wier for dragging Ceci down. I don't know what you have against him, because you are hiding behind Corsi/analytics numbers. You know what's a better judge of a player's ability? WATCHING the player play the game. I don't know, maybe he stole your girlfriend or something, but you are way off base with Ceci.

Now can we get this thread back to the original proposals? I don't know how the topic of the thread changed from Stone to Ceci.

Alright. Don't know why you're all getting so emotional over a player. But, agree to disagree I suppose.

The reason the topic changed to Ceci was that I proposed a three way trade:

EDM gets Ceci and Kulemin
NYI get RNH
OTT gets De Haan

 

[internetdotcom]

Alright. Don't know why you're all getting so emotional over a player. But, agree to disagree I suppose.

The reason the topic changed to Ceci was that I proposed a three way trade:

EDM gets Ceci and Kulemin
NYI get RNH
OTT gets De Haan

Ah yes, that was it. Still no. Moving on. And I'm not emotional! LOL

 

[Benjamin]

Wiercioch was the one carrying Ceci. You can see that Wiercioch's numbers away from Ceci are better, while Ceci's numbers away from Wiercioch are worse.

Remember when watching hockey was a part of watching hockey?

 

[Bossy Mike]

Remember when watching hockey was a part of watching hockey?

I doubt many here actually watch hockey. They just look at numbers then try to make said numbers relevant. It's a shame, because hockey is fun to watch.

 

[Gavin Ray]

Remember when watching hockey was a part of watching hockey?

Referring to analytics means you don't watch hockey? I never knew.

 

[BK201]

Ceci said on tsn when he was paired with Weircoich the coaching staff asked him to play a more defensive D role to complement Weircoich and he never felt comfortable.

 

[Bossy Mike]

Referring to analytics means you don't watch hockey? I never knew.

The analytic people tend to find any number that suits their opinion. The relevance of these numbers as far as hockey goes is not important to them. Obscure stays are more important than what really happens on the ice. It's annoying and it ruins real discussions of which player is better.

 

[Benjamin]

Referring to analytics means you don't watch hockey? I never knew.

"Referring to analytics" is an under statement. You're forming complete opinions on players based on numbers without context or limited/no viewings of the player.

 

[stempniaksen]

lol I am a sens fan, and I watched every single senators game as well. From what I've seen Ceci is awesome offensively, but is atrocious defensively, every game he gets caught in his own end and is outshot badly. It doesn't mean I like Cowen or Wiercioch, or think that they are particularly good.

Interestingly enough, Ceci played with Methot more than he played with Cowen, is Methot not a competent D? How come he wasn't good even when paired with him?

I am also a fan of analytics. And it just so happens that Ceci did in fact bring down the possession metrics of every single player he paired with. In fact, Phaneuf is the perfect example since his possession away from Ceci was ridiculously higher. Ceci sinks his teammates no matter who his teammate is. Its time to stop blaming who he plays with and point the finger at him. http://www.corsica.hockey/combos/

I don't want to come off as a Ceci hater, because the truth I like him and want him to keep improving and cement himself as a top 4 defenceman. I just find that sens fans really overvalue him and put him in a light that he doesn't deserve... yet. For example saying that he is better than Calvin De Haan, who is already an established top 4 guy that excels at driving possession and makes all the players around him better.

To put your numbers into contect a little bit, when Methot or Phaneuf don't play with Ceci they tend to play with Karlsson. Would that not be one of the reasons Ceci "drags down everybody he plays with"? Just a theory.

 

[Bossy Mike]

To put your numbers into contect a little bit, when Methot or Phaneuf don't play with Ceci they tend to play with Karlsson. Would that not be one of the reasons Ceci "drags down everybody he plays with"? Just a theory.

I've seen the sens play. No one is saying ceci is good. No weird stats needed. Just watching games.

 

[stempniaksen]

I've seen the sens play. No one is saying ceci is good. No weird stats needed. Just watching games.

Except Hockey Canada...and Bryan Murray...and Brian Kilrea...

His development has taken a bit of a hit after being saddled with Wierioch and Cowen over the years, but this guy flashes big-time talent. To put up the numbers he did offensively last season, with almost no PP time, is pretty darn good. If Boucher doesn't play Karlsson for the entire 2 mins like Cameron did I think you'll see a big year for Ceci. He's also coming around defensively, and hopefully having him play with one of Phaneuf/Methot all season will help settle him down in his own end a bit.