Is there a narrative that the Capitals are sacrificing everything to get Ovechkin the Goal Record? Is there a double standard with regards to Crosby?

[Golden_Jet]

Impeccable timing waiting until they win another one.

If the Caps make the playoffs and do any sort of damage I’ll be the first to eat my words. But until then, if you think these guys stand any sort of chance then I think you should be the one considering watching any game other than the Caps. Thanks.

lol ,no, you just seem angry and wrong, caps are playing well, if any team should of went into a rebuild of the 2, it’s Pittsburgh.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

I wonder if fans of these teams are simply happy to celebrate these great players in their twilight years. Perhaps they would rather have it this way than collecting picks and seeing Crosby in Vegas and Ovechkin in Tampa.

 

[bleedgreen]

The Caps owner said years ago that was the priority didn’t he? I don’t think any other owner or team would’ve gotten Ovy the award, it should be a Caps team award by the time he gets it. Crosby was flat out amazing last year and still makes all the team oriented contributions he always has. The difference in their games is obvious enough to refute the OP argument. Crosby has more value game to game even if he is slowly going downhill. Ovy looks like a keg in a t shirt. His job for a decade has been to cruise the left side waiting for a pass or loose puck and that’s it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Do you think they were better or worse than ovechkin?

As a goal scorer, Ovechkin has been A LOT better than Gretzky at an advanced age.

Gretzky’s final 30-goal season came at age 33. After that season he scored 91 goals.

After that same age, Ovechkin had seasons of 50, 48, 42, 31, and 24. And the 24 goal season was the COVID stoppage… he actually paced for 44 that year. In total he scored 199 to Gretzky’s 91.

Do you think he was afforded the same opportunities or not? Otherwise your comment is irrelevant.

Ovechkin has been a superior goal scorer to Gretzky, full stop. If you want to talk about opportunity, the reason he hasn’t already blown past the record is because he missed two full seasons to labor stoppages and COVID, and played in a far lower-scoring era with far less team support. He’d be pushing 1000 goals by now if their opportunities were equal.

 

[NatusVincere]

I don’t think any other owner or team would’ve gotten Ovy the award, it should be a Caps team award by the time he gets it.

I don’t think any other owner or team had a player which even came close to a major Gretzky record let alone a realistic chance of breaking it. Toronto would make a deal with the devil and suck for another half century to get Matthews the goal scoring record… if he ever gets at least to 800.

 

[Hivemind]

Crosby is a better and far more complete player at this point. He's good enough that his play stops his team from tanking. So you either trade him or build some kind of team around him.

Ovechkin is extremely one dimensional at this point. The Caps aren't really doing what's in the best of interest of winning either. Honestly, I were the Caps, I'd kill two birds with one stone. Go full tank except for an Ovy led powerplay with a bunch of PP specialists. Ovy gets his record. The Caps get the rebuild.

You can just admit you haven't watched either team this year. That's fine.

 

[trick9]

Crosby is a better and far more complete player at this point. He's good enough that his play stops his team from tanking. So you either trade him or build some kind of team around him.

Ovechkin is extremely one dimensional at this point. The Caps aren't really doing what's in the best of interest of winning either. Honestly, I were the Caps, I'd kill two birds with one stone. Go full tank except for an Ovy led powerplay with a bunch of PP specialists. Ovy gets his record. The Caps get the rebuild.

Here is a list of players who give up more high-danger chances against in the NHL than Sidney Crosby:

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

This comment is defied by the preponderance of Stanley Cup wins for teams led by players that those teams drafted in the top three picks. Staal, Crosby & Malkin, Ovechkin, Toews & Kane, Doughty, Hedman & Stamkos, Mackinnon (& Makar, if I extended the criteria out to top four picks), Barkov-- their teams nearly run the championships table in the salary cap era.

Teams tank because it's the best chance to get elite talent, which is the most important factor for future success.

Also Ekblad.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Interesting. So you think that Ovi breaking a record without context means something but Greyzky’s record itself doesn’t?


Do you think they were better or worse than ovechkin? Do you think he was afforded the same opportunities or not? Otherwise your comment is irrelevant.

I think he was afforded other opportunities which made it easier. I think the fact that scores were much higher made it easier for goal scorers to score. So if his points weren’t artificially raised the way you are suggesting Ovi’s are, they were still raised by the lack of d.
I think ovi’s scoring needs context, but so does Gretzky’s and since there is no asterisk’s breaking down what was going on in the nhl at the time and all we are left with is a number that historically it won’t matter the context. It doesn’t mean the context doesn’t matter, but, that in the end all you have is a number. Not a number broken into empty net goals etc.

Therefore offsetting opportunities. Gretzky is still better as it’s not his only record. Gretzky also has the assists record. Which once again needs to be contextualized, higher scoring nhl, but, no one else has come close enough that they could create an opportunity for a modern player to break it.

I thought your initial post only looked at one advantage instead of the many they both had and weighed them against each other, by pointing at the one advantage meaningless games team try to feed him the record as the only one.

 

[Kalopsia]

Crap management is not seeing reality. And as with the Pens and Caps, when you have legacies to preserve instead of doing the rational thing, your future rebuild will be very long and those buildings will be very empty at the end of this decade. By then, management will have been turned over and the franchise probably sold - it'll be someone else's problem.

But this is a league that is won by the talent at the top of the draft. You know this first hand. And this Caps team is not winning anything any time soon. They're retooling for a record and not much else.

I'm curious what you think the Caps have done recently that's going to lengthen a hypothetical rebuild when Ovie retires?

 

[wetcoast]

It’s “asking questions” as to whether a narrative exists.

Since you commented, do you think such narrative exists?

You are just asking question but put it in an all or nothing context and of course there is some truth to the narrative that the capitals are all in on the goal scoring record as the owner himself said so and the TOI/PP usage and late career ENG situational play also supports this narrative.

Basically the question is in the title.

Do you believe (a) there is a narrative that Washington has sacrificed all team building for the sake of Ovechkin's legacy/pursuit of goal scoring record, (b) that this narrative has any merit, (c) that Pittsburgh has somehow escaped the same level of scrutiny with regards to the late stages of Crosby's career, (d) if there is a double standard, that this is somewhat warranted?

When Crosby gets to the same level of play then we can see but I doubt it as there isn't some numerical record to chase.

 

[BallardEra]

Both guys have been regressing and will continue to do so despite what either side says.

 

[CDN24]

If anything the caps have been trying to retool on the fly and get younger without doing a scorched earth rebuild while Pens continue to trade away futures to win now for the most part. Since the Caps won the cup in 2018 there have been 7 drafts.
Caps have drafted in 1st round 6 times only the 2021 1st rounder was traded to det in Anthony Mantha deal. They also made 8 2nd rd picks and 7 in the 3rd
Pens have drafted in 1st round only 3 times in that period. and 6 times in the 2nd 3 in the 3rd.

Caps have not been sacrificing the future to get OVI the record.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

A) Yes, I think there is that narrative.

B) I dislike the Caps as much as any Pens fan, but I don't get the narrative that they're sacrificing anything to get Ovi the record. Their team looks in fairly good shape and they've got a good combo of young guys and more experienced players.

C) Doesn't make any sense at all, considering the Penguins management is actively ruining the end of Crosby's career with incompetent management and coaching...

D) I don't think there's a "double standard" at all, because of the above statement.

 

[SkinsFan09]

To answer OP's question, I think there is a small narrative around this idea, specifically with regards to them feeding him for empty nets at all costs. It seems amplified on these boards to the degree that people think that the capitals are throwing games in order to force feed OV, and there seems to be a notion that he wouldn't be on one of the top scoring lines anywhere else besides the capitals. There is absolutely no merit to this narrative. Crosby doesn't seem to be facing the same scrutiny on these boards or elsewhere, so I won't comment on that.

It's funny because Crosby led the NHL in empty net goals last year and is No. 2 to Gretzky in empty net points all-time but for him it's fine. (To be clear, I have zero issue with anyone getting empty net goals or points - if they're there for Sid, he should take them)

The Capitals are correctly retooling - going into 2022-23 the average age of the roster was over 30. This year, it's under 28. Moving to a coach like Carberry was also the right move to develop young players for the future, which Laviolette is just not good at.

 

[stephenball]

I mean, absolutely the Penguins are more in need of a full rebuild than the Caps. They mortgaged future capital more, so they have a lot less in the pipeline at the end of this era. But it worked out because they won more cups.

The Capitals aren’t in desperate need of a full rebuild. I’m not going to sit here and say they should be massively competing for cups in the next few years, but there’s a lot of promising talent already making an impact and coming in soon. We’ll have to see how it shakes out, but I’m not too worried about years of hell, I think they’ve set us up fairly well for the future.

But as to the claims that the Caps only care about Ovechkin’s record chase, I think that’s a ridiculous claim. People act like they traded four first round picks for Mitch Marner or something.

 

[qc14]

Where I think everyone goes wrong with the "Caps only exist to get Ovi the record" narrative is that the best way to get Ovi the record is for the team to be good and the best way for the team to be good is for Ovi to score (and thus hit the record).

Whereas I think the first part is more of an "honest" mistake, what really drives me insane about the way the franchise is talked about is that the FO has gone about this mission in an incredibly rational, sustainable way despite a real dramatic fall off from most of the cup-winning core.

They've had exceptional pro scouting, hitting on a lot of older UFA additions such as Strome, TVR, Dowd, Hathaway and more importantly not having any real big misses. Their drafting and development has been extremely good as well -- Fehervary, McMichael, Lapierre, Malenstyn and Protas have all played important minutes for them. Finally, they've taken a few calculated risks but importantly haven't given up a ton to do so. Bringing in three flawed but good and younger players in PLD, Chychrun, and Sandin cost them Jensen, Kuemper, a 3rd, and 30oa. To do all this while having $22M in cap tied up in two guys that couldn't skate anymore in Oshie and Backstrom and one in Kuznetsov who just completely gave up on being a professional hockey player is pretty impressive.

Compare that to a certain rival in a similar spot and it's infuriating that they've gotten the "hard" part of having Malkin/Crosby/Guentzel hang on for longer but have done basically the exact opposite of the Caps in every other aspect of roster-building. Their pro scouting has been horrendous (Graves, Gryzlyck, Smith, Jarry), their drafting has been even worse, and the one big calculated risk they did take involved bringing back a 33yo instead of a 26yo.

Only one GM though "has been handed a really tough situation" while the other is "delaying the inevitable"

 

[pezpunk]

If the Caps make the playoffs and do any sort of damage I’ll be the first to eat my words.

no you won't, you'll disappear in silence.

the caps look great this year and Ovi is on pace for 41 goals, but keep talking about how they should bench ovi and sell everything for spare parts.

 

[TooManyHumans]

I wonder if fans of these teams are simply happy to celebrate these great players in their twilight years. Perhaps they would rather have it this way than collecting picks and seeing Crosby in Vegas and Ovechkin in Tampa.

Nope. I don't know how anyone could watch the Penguins this year and say that they prefer things this way. They are absolute garbage. The defense is horrifically bad. It is no fun to watch at all.

 

[benfranklin]

IMO The Caps are going for the goal record and nothing else. It would be brutal for the franchise if he doesnt hit it or hits it with another team. So that is the goal there.

I dont know wtf the Pens are doing or why Dubas took that job. He basically cant do his job for another 3 years until the big three retire. I assume they asked the big three if they want to leave for a contender and all said no, so now its just sit around and wait. Sadly theyre good enough to keep the Pens out of the basement but have no help to actually contend so are in no mans land.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t think any other owner or team had a player which even came close to a major Gretzky record let alone a realistic chance of breaking it. Toronto would make a deal with the devil and suck for another half century to get Matthews the goal scoring record… if he ever gets at least to 800.

I don’t know if I agree that the TO market would be down with sucking instead of rebuilding and focusing on that instead of winning. They seem to very much struggle with that right now, having a good team that’s not good enough in the playoffs and the players catch hell about it. Thats only from watching the market though, someone embedded of course may see that different. I think it’s hard to tell your base to spend so much money on a loser that’s going to chase something other than winning.

 

[stephenball]

Coming back to clarify: of course the Capitals care a lot about the goal record. I don’t think it’s ALL they care about but of course they want to make it happen. Stanley Cups are always the goal of a franchise, and it’s very hard, only one team can win each year. Becoming the all time goal scoring leader is something we never thought would happen, it’s a huge deal. Ovechkin is the greatest and most important person in franchise history, and probably Washington sports history.

BUT, I think they believe they can have it both ways, and build a team that competes that he can score his goals as part of which more young players stepping in to take over. I don’t predict them to be going to the finals or anything in these last Ovechkin years, but they should have a good on ice product with more and more of their future players playing larger roles. Seems like a win-win.

 

[SkinsFan09]

IMO The Caps are going for the goal record and nothing else. It would be brutal for the franchise if he doesnt hit it or hits it with another team. So that is the goal there.

Do you have any evidence of this?

 

[benfranklin]

Do you have any evidence of this?

Their roster moves continuing to be okish and not really improving their team much in order to compete. They could easily strip the roster, still get Ovi his goals, and stock up pick/prospects targeting his retirement. Instead theyre in no mans land.

 

[gtrower]

Here is a list of players who give up more high-danger chances against in the NHL than Sidney Crosby:

Can posts be stickied at the top of threads? Crosby has among the worst ES defensive numbers of any forward in the league in recent years. He’s also a force offensively. In summary, he’s actually the player Pens fans claim Ovi to be. I swear people just latch onto narratives on a random day and then refuse to watch a game the next 10 years.