North Cole
♧ Lem
- Jan 22, 2017
- 11,841
- 13,523
Is Provorov top 10 all around d man yet?
- Thread starter ViD
- Start date
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
“Two-way” is such a silly standard for hockey players. They either have a positive impact, or they don’t.
Linda Hamilton couldn’t kill plus/minus.
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1865
Alpha Couturier
I started this thread thinking he could sneak into the top ten and then I looked at that list and realised just how many quality defensemen there are in this league.
I’ll take Provy over Letang and maybe Ekblad though.
1865
Alpha Couturier
I thought Provorov matched Werenski last season and he’s certainly had a better year this. I don’t think there’s much of a case for putting him ahead right now. I wouldn’t put Gardiner ahead either. They’re both excellent players, but give me Provorov in this case.
Werenski is nowhere near Provorov defensively. Werenski is used like your typical OD. Be it because of that or not, right now Provorov looks like a way more mature and complete defenceman. Taking him over Werenski anyday.
Alwalys
Phu m.
- May 19, 2010
- 25,894
- 6,140
lol a lot of people have only seen dgaf burns from earlier this season. gaf burns is dominant at both ends of the ice.
burns is a 300+ shot defenseman that is 2nd in league scoring (good chance at 1st), who happens to be a key penalty killing defenseman on the #1 penalty killing team in the league.
he is quite adept at defense, he just is the teams top offensive driver 5v5 so he does not play defense-first.
burns is a 300+ shot defenseman that is 2nd in league scoring (good chance at 1st), who happens to be a key penalty killing defenseman on the #1 penalty killing team in the league.
he is quite adept at defense, he just is the teams top offensive driver 5v5 so he does not play defense-first.
Karlsson,
OEL,
Lindholm,
Suter,
Jones
Keith,
Doughty,
Giordano,
Josi,
Subban,
Hedman,
Pietrangelo,
Slavin
Right there is 13 no doubters at least better all around imo.
We can start adding other young Dmen like Sergachev/Ekblad/etc, guys like Burns/Klingberg/Krug/etc. it is hard to put Provorov clearly in the top 20 even.
OEL,
Lindholm,
Suter,
Jones
Keith,
Doughty,
Giordano,
Josi,
Subban,
Hedman,
Pietrangelo,
Slavin
Right there is 13 no doubters at least better all around imo.
We can start adding other young Dmen like Sergachev/Ekblad/etc, guys like Burns/Klingberg/Krug/etc. it is hard to put Provorov clearly in the top 20 even.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
Plus/minus is relevant. If it is not then that makes EK just a power play specialist. Right? Because the goal of any hockey game is to outscore the opposition. If one is a minus player then that means that player is giving up more goals when they're on the ice at even strength than they are contributing - and the majority of any hockey game is played at even strength.
AdamParrot
Registered User
- Mar 10, 2015
- 6,390
- 10,125
Macallan18
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2015
- 10,137
- 5,939
Is Provorov top ten in some kind of contest of cherry picked stats including plus minus and who knows what else? I dunno. Who cares? Decent kid, will still develop.
But dumping on so many good d-men because they don't fit your perverse narrative?
This is just childish.
Main boards are just downright silly.
But dumping on so many good d-men because they don't fit your perverse narrative?
This is just childish.
Main boards are just downright silly.
Macallan18
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2015
- 10,137
- 5,939
yes, that has been used by the original poster.
This thread is so stupid, its incredible.
Provorov is so sheltered compared to someone like Rielly its absurd. And Rielly has hit 50 points.
But don't bring up Rielly as better defensively!!!
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
That’s not what it means at all.
First of all, you can get a plus and a minus when not at even strength.
Secondly and more importantly it means that the team is giving up more goals than they are scoring when that player is on the ice.
I’m amazed that you have to be educated on what the stat means after so many years on this board.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
Shorthanded goals happen how often? I really thought it was rather irrelevant.
When that player is a defenseman it matters.
See? It's right there in the title of the player's position. DEFENSEman.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
Player logs the most ice time on a bad team that is struggling with terrible goaltending?
If you didn’t have such an obvious and long-standing agenda I would just say that you’re reaching.
As it is, I suspect you didn’t give two shits about plus minus until today.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
See. This is why I knew I should have mentioned Doughty in my original post. He has had more freedom to play offense under Stevens, and guess what? He gets caught behind the play.
Do you expect a forward to skate as well as a d-man backward? Know how to close down those passing lanes as well? No. It's not the nature of the position. As I've asserted for a long time now the issue is that EK's pressing for offense leaves the Sens vulnerable to counterattack. No one can skate faster than the puck.
And is is Anderssen? Or is it the player who logs the most ice time not being able to clear the front of the net and or not get caught behind the play? Many pundits have said the same thing. He needs someone back there to cover his rear. Methot was a HUGE loss - just as I said.
It would be really fun to watch a game with you. No put down or anything like that, because you do know the game, but I'm always curious what others see. Perhaps we could learn from one another.
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NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
Here we go again.
That's not what happens.
If anything, most of his defensive lapses when they occur happen when the team is under pressure in their own zone. Not when he's caught up ice.
He doesn't risk the way he used to - not over this season. You don't see him stand up at the line with the same frequency or join the rush that often unless it's in OT.
We don't know if it's because his ankle is messed up his season or if this is the new normal.
The problem with your criticism is that you are criticizing the player from 5 years ago. You don't think anything has changed.
Legionnaire said:
Yes, it's the goaltending.
Anderson is logging a sparkling .899 and Condon a stellar .901.
Here's an quote from January in the Ottawa Citizen about it if you don't believe me:
PressReader.com - Connecting People Through News
I know it's easy to point fingers at how the players are playing in front of them but Ottawa's tandem have been good for 1-3 softies a game and that's simply not good enough.
Legionnaire said:It would be really fun to watch a game with you. No put down or anything like that, but I'm always curious what others see. Perhaps we could learn from one another.
Your idea of Karlsson is this free-wheeling fourth forward who does whatever he wants and spends half the game at the opposing goal line.
He doesn't play like that anymore.
You being an LA fan is interesting because Ottawa defenceman Tom Preissing logged a +40 back in 2006-2007 before being signed in the off-season by the Los Angeles Kings on a three-year deal.
I suspect their interpretation of plus/minus is similar to yours.
He played 99 mediocre games for the Kings before being shuffled off to the minors in Manchester and then Lake Erie as part of the Avs and was out of the league a season later.
It's not a very good statistic for determining the value of a defenceman - particularly when comparing Provorov to Karlsson.
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Legionnaire
Help On The Way
What? You know what this is always going to turn into, don't you?
And the results have been? What? Remember, this is essentially the same team that "was within one goal of going to the Finals". There were a lot of contributors and not just EK.
Okay, I hate to bring this up, because it is kind of sleazy, but do you think Anderssen is less focused than last season when his wife was battling cancer? Maybe. Maybe not. But I would doubt it.
Have I said that plus minus is the be all and end all? No, I have not. However it gives a broad picture, just like Corsi, to what is going on when players are on the ice.
Preissing? Yeah. He played an offensive role on the Sens that year, as he should have because he sure couldn't defend, and went from playing on a contender, that went to the finals to a guy who really had no purpose on the Kings. What about Corvo? He went from an 16 to an 8 from Kings to Sens. And lest we forget that Sens team went TO the finals.
Not the be all and end all but Karlsson, with all of his points, has only ended up a plus player four times out of nine season with the Sens.
And the results have been? What? Remember, this is essentially the same team that "was within one goal of going to the Finals". There were a lot of contributors and not just EK.
Okay, I hate to bring this up, because it is kind of sleazy, but do you think Anderssen is less focused than last season when his wife was battling cancer? Maybe. Maybe not. But I would doubt it.
Have I said that plus minus is the be all and end all? No, I have not. However it gives a broad picture, just like Corsi, to what is going on when players are on the ice.
Preissing? Yeah. He played an offensive role on the Sens that year, as he should have because he sure couldn't defend, and went from playing on a contender, that went to the finals to a guy who really had no purpose on the Kings. What about Corvo? He went from an 16 to an 8 from Kings to Sens. And lest we forget that Sens team went TO the finals.
Not the be all and end all but Karlsson, with all of his points, has only ended up a plus player four times out of nine season with the Sens.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
Not essentially the same Karlsson.
A guy who missed the entire summer and camp and a few games on top of that.
Legionnaire said:
It doesn’t matter why it’s happening.
He is not playing well this year.
If anything, it’s in keeping with his good season/bad season pattern that has characterized his career.
You can play armchair psychologist all you want but any objective person who is actually watching the games knows that he is struggling.
Legionnaire said:
That’s pretty much what I would expect when you’re the top minute eating player on a mediocre team for your entire career.
In the context of this thread, if you honestly believe that Provorov is a better defenceman than Karlsson I think you will find that you’re probably in the minority.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
Only one argument with this post and it's "not the same Karlsson" part. Jeez man, how many players do you think that has happened to? Of course. Injuries happen and he's had some rough ones. Have you ever seen photos of Bobby Orr's scars? The comparison would look much like going from Ancient Egypt and drilling holes in the brain to modern medicine.
As you alluded to, we are talking about this season. What about the other eight? It still means that 3 out of 8 seasons he was a minus player.
As you alluded to, we are talking about this season. What about the other eight? It still means that 3 out of 8 seasons he was a minus player.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
Happens to lots of players.
Some players play better or worse than others with injuries.
Also, the nature of the injury as well - for a guy that relies so much on positioning and mobility - what does it mean if he can’t skate the same way?
Part of the reason Karlsson is playing more conservatively is by necessity rather than by choice. He can’t gamble as much because he will get burned more often.
Karlsson isn’t up for the Norris this year and that’s fine - he had a rough start but he’s been better lately.
People who watched him in the post season last year have a better idea of what he’s capable of at both ends of the rink.
Whether he can reach that level again with all that’s happened remains to be seen. He’s still a pretty young guy so I think it’s still a reasonable hope.
As it is, I’m very curious to see what happens with an off-season that allows him to train - regardless if he returns with the Sens or some other team.
Legionnaire said:
You can look at it two ways.
You can say that Karlsson isn’t very good defensively and that’s why he has been a minus player.
Or you can say that Ottawa has no business being competitive at all and he’s been a big reason why they’ve been in the playoff picture as opposed to a lottery team over the course of his career.
The fact that he’s a plus at all is a testament to his level of play.
Legionnaire
Help On The Way
Of course it does or I wouldn't have said it. lol. More conservative? Hmm. Maybe that would have been a better path all along?
I disagree with the latter. I think you Sens fans underestimate your team. Good team with a superstar player. Of course it could be better if...
I disagree with the latter. I think you Sens fans underestimate your team. Good team with a superstar player. Of course it could be better if...
