Is Leon Draisaitl Gonna Break Nathan MacKinnon's Hart?

[bobbyking]

he's not winning with mcdavid on his team

 

[PuckG]

he's not winning with mcdavid on his team

He’s won before with McDavid on his team.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Nearly everything you posted happens to every team every year...that must be the worst collection of excuses I ever saw...but that's not the problem.

That's simply not even close to true....

 

[bobbyking]

He’s won before with McDavid on his team.

he missed significant time that year.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The Oilers are long past the need for regular season awards. I could care less at this point who wins any award that isn't the one that actually matters.

 

[paragon]

He's showing he's worth his extension.

 

[Toby91ca]

The Oilers are long past the need for regular season awards. I could care less at this point who wins any award that isn't the one that actually matters.

Ok, so you care a bit then.....how much less do you think you could actually care? Sorry, pet peeve....

 

[Juxta Position]

Well...my assumption, which I pointed out, was that most star players will definitely be out at the end when the other team's goalie is pulled, same goes for when their goalie is pulled. All things being equal though, I suggested they'd likely stay out longer with their net empty than the other way around as you'd get more tired trying to defend....but also, needing to stay out because you need to be there to try and score when your net is empty, you don't really need to be there against an empty net, others can pick up that slack.

Anyway, rather than assume, I just looked up the stats. Draisaitl has been on the ice, protecting the lead with the other team's net empty for a total of 19:52.....the flip to that, on with his goalie pulled, he's been out for 33:30.

so in those 33 minutes of time with his goalie pulled, he has 3 goals shooting against a goalie, and in the 20 minutes of protecting a lead with the oppositions net empty he has 2 goals. It's very obviously much easier to score when there's no goalie in the net which DOES make this an impressive stat.

 

[avsfan2189]

Nearly everything you posted happens to every team every year...that must be the worst collection of excuses I ever saw...but that's not the problem.

MacK has fallen off a cliff since playing not with Rantanen and the production of Necas is exactly the same this season as before the trade and this including tonight's game where both finally got some points together.
Every star forward needs a good player to play with and MacK is not a exception (that's nothing to be ashamed of as every top forward in the league needs some line support)

has this happened to drai?

can you point out any of the equivalent storylines oilers had to go through?

i dont recall edm shipping out BOTH their goalies, calvin pickard is ....14-4 as a backup...real similar to what the avs had lol

how is playing the full year without a competent 2nd line center a terrible excuse? im not using it as an excuse im using it as a reason why Mack is hart caliber yet again. Do you really think if Mack goes down right now the Avs make the playoffs with Mittelstadt as their no1?

 

[McFlyingV]

he missed significant time that year.

He missed 7 games. He's missed 6 this year. Try again.

 

[McFlyingV]

has this happened to drai?

can you point out any of the equivalent storylines oilers had to go through?

i dont recall edm shipping out BOTH their goalies, calvin pickard is ....14-4 as a backup...real similar to what the avs had lol

how is playing the full year without a competent 2nd line center a terrible excuse? im not using it as an excuse im using it as a reason why Mack is hart caliber yet again. Do you really think if Mack goes down right now the Avs make the playoffs with Mittelstadt as their no1?

Empty net points make this look way closer than it is. Draisaitl is blowing Mack out of the water this year in every statistical category. He's been the far better goal scorer, far better point producer against goalies, and significantly better defensive player.

Mack will be a finalist, but he doesn't deserve a single first place vote.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

he's not winning with mcdavid on his team

just like in 2019-20 eh?

 

[34]

No

 

[Coffey]

He missed 7 games. He's missed 6 this year. Try again.

People just LOOOOOVE to spout commentary without looking up stats.
It's actually insane how confident they are in misinformation.

We gotta keep em humble and correct.

 

[OilWagon]

has this happened to drai?

can you point out any of the equivalent storylines oilers had to go through?

i dont recall edm shipping out BOTH their goalies, calvin pickard is ....14-4 as a backup...real similar to what the avs had lol

how is playing the full year without a competent 2nd line center a terrible excuse? im not using it as an excuse im using it as a reason why Mack is hart caliber yet again. Do you really think if Mack goes down right now the Avs make the playoffs with Mittelstadt as their no1?

Pickard is 14-4 with a .901 let's not pretend he's carrying the Oilers, Oil are just a dominant puck posession team that doesn't need amazing goal tending to win. Avs goalies were a tire fire before for sure, but the team was also giving up loads of high danger chances and not insulating them.

 

[sportsdynasty]

Leon has been the favorite the whole season. MVP of the league for sure!! McDavid is a great player, but he's not on the level of Draisaitl this season (and some past seasons too). MacKinnon and Kucherov are not close to the level of Draisaitl. For all those who say Draisaitl can't win with McDavid on the same team.. You could say the same thing that MacKinnon can't win with Makar on the same team.

 

[bobbyking]

He missed 7 games. He's missed 6 this year. Try again.

yeah completely forgot about the covid stuff. you win this one

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Empty net points make this look way closer than it is. Draisaitl is blowing Mack out of the water this year in every statistical category. He's been the far better goal scorer, far better point producer against goalies, and significantly better defensive player.

Mack will be a finalist, but he doesn't deserve a single first place vote.

Wild stat I saw yesterday:

Draisaitl has more goals (3) with the Oilers goalie pulled than he does with the opposition goalie pulled (2)

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I think it’s neck and neck at this point tbh. Will likely come down to which guy wins the Art Ross as there’s usually a strong correlation between the 2 trophies.

 

[Toby91ca]

so in those 33 minutes of time with his goalie pulled, he has 3 goals shooting against a goalie, and in the 20 minutes of protecting a lead with the oppositions net empty he has 2 goals. It's very obviously much easier to score when there's no goalie in the net which DOES make this an impressive stat.

It's more of a quirky stat that it is impressive. If you think about it, when you pull your goalie, you expect to be in the offensive end pretty much the whole time...it's a PP basically. When you are going against an empty net, you expect to be in your end pretty much the whole time, so it's not exactly a crazy impressive stat. I totally agree, it's easier to score on the empty net, I just don't think it's shocking to see someone with more when his goalie is pulled vs. when the other goalie is pulled.

I mean, the comparative here is Mackinnon, he has 3 goals against empty net vs. 2 when his goalie is pulled. The inverse of Draisaitl.....so not the same, but not incredibly different. Look at some other guys in the league though,

Scheifele, 4 goals when his net is empty to only 1 against an empty net.
Granlund, 3-0
Toffoli, 3-0
Lee, 3-0
Zetterlund 3-0
Giroux 2-1
Meier 2-1
Zucker 2-0
Rossi 2-0
Kadri 2-1
Noesen 2-0
Rackell 2-0
Guentzel 2-1
Bertuzzi 2-0
Nichushkin 2-1
Dunn 2-0
Evangelista 2-1

Then there are another 48 players that have scored 1 goal when their net was empty but haven't scored any on an empty net. So in total, there are 65 players that have an equal or better ratio of goals scored with own net empty vs to when they are shooting on an empty net when compared to Draisaitl....so while it's a neat little stat to see popped up on the screen, it's really not that special or incredible.

 

[avsfan2189]

Pickard is 14-4 with a .901 let's not pretend he's carrying the Oilers, Oil are just a dominant puck posession team that doesn't need amazing goal tending to win. Avs goalies were a tire fire before for sure, but the team was also giving up loads of high danger chances and not insulating them.

i didn't say pickard was carrying the oilers, im actually saying that the oilers can win even with goalies like pickard in net.

Avs' goaltending was a serious issue for almost half the season. they do give up loads of high danger chances but Georgiev letting in the first shot in countless games makes it difficult to keep overcoming. you made my point if Mack goes down then they are out of the playoffs giving up those kind of chances. There is no backup on the avs but the oil have two hart winners

again, it's neck and neck but there aren't the same degree of things on the oilers to compare.

last year everyone was saying McDavid was a hart contender cuz of what they had to overcome early in the season and the run they had, I'm applying that same logic to Mack.

again, no number 2C production (even now) and no goaltending for half a year increases the weight of mack's contributions this year.

as of now none of the replies to my case had really good counter arguments

 

[WetcoastOrca]

i didn't say pickard was carrying the oilers, im actually saying that the oilers can win even with goalies like pickard in net.

Avs' goaltending was a serious issue for almost half the season. they do give up loads of high danger chances but Georgiev letting in the first shot in countless games makes it difficult to keep overcoming.

again, it's neck and neck but there aren't the same degree of things on the oilers to compare.

last year everyone was saying McDavid was a hart contender cuz of what they had to overcome early in the season and the run they had, I'm applying that same logic to Mack.

again, no number 2C production (even now) and no goaltending for half a year increases the weight of mack's contributions this year.

as of now none of the replies to my case had really good counter arguments

I think the counter argument is that the Avs have a Norris level high offense D man while the Oilers don’t but they have McDavid. That still gives Drai an advantage imo but in the end I think these type of arguments only become important if the Art Ross race comes down to a one or two point difference.

 

[BoltSTH]

Kucherov is still in the Hart and Art Ross race. His 1.55 ppg is the best, just Draisaitl (2 more games and 2 points) and McKinnon (4 more games and 4 points) ahead of him.

 

[avsfan2189]

I think the counter argument is that the Avs have a Norris level high offense D man while the Oilers don’t but they have McDavid. That still gives Drai an advantage imo but in the end I think these type of arguments only become important if the Art Ross race comes down to a one or two point difference.

they do have a guy who's going to command 11 mil thanks to the nurse contract lol but yeah i agree, the arguments im making are on the assumption they end neck n neck in art ross and then storylines/contextual seasons have to be examined. I've laid out the case so far for Mack. looking forward to see Drai's case at the end

mack has to play 24-27 min a night almost just to keep the avs competitive

 

[Toby91ca]

Wild stat I saw yesterday:

Draisaitl has more goals (3) with the Oilers goalie pulled than he does with the opposition goalie pulled (2)

As noted, it's a stat that someone might flash during a telecast, but in reality, it's not a very wild stat when 65 other players do the same or better.