Is Kucherov getting slighted for awards?

[MacMacandBarbie]

The simple answer is yes. Kucherov is not a very likable player. First off he is Russian. So a language barrier is going to keep him from bonding with players around the league, who all are North American. I don't see him winning the Lindsay ever, which is definitely a popularity contest amongst players. If he didn't win it in 2019, he ain't winning that trophy.

As for Hart voting, there are definitely some biases this year that have everything to do with the All Star game. That is a media event, where the NHL is sticking their hands out for money from the media. Kucherov and his ego had to make it all about him, and make a joke of the event. This pissed off the NHL and important powers in the media, no question.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

It's not like he lost to Taylor Hall or Corey Perry.

MacKinnon had 50+ goals, 140+ points.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

It turns out putting up game winning points matters a lot more than being a empty net points merchant.

Actually it turns out that being likable and making an effort to be professional at a major media event has an impact on your career.

Anybody who has worked inside an office setting should know that you have to play the game a little bit if you want to get those awards. Likable people get promoted and paid.

 

[tucker3434]

Well, 100 assists hasn't happened by more than 3 players, 13 times. We had a nearly 70 goal scorer that was nominated for the Selke. So its hard to sell us on the fact that the voters were 'impressed' by 50 goals.

51 goals and 89 assists (or better) has been done by only 6 guys, including MacKinnon. That's only one more guy than the number of players that have hit 100 assists. I don't understand why all of it needs to be stacked into one category for it to be significant. Goals regularly get a bit more weight than assists. The guy with more goals won this one. Just doesn't seem all that surprising.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

It's not like he lost to Taylor Hall or Corey Perry.

MacKinnon had 50+ goals, 140+ points.

He also showed up to post game press conferences in professional attire, with respect to the reporters. He took his duties at the All Star game seriously, and embraced it, which is why they went with a 'Team MacKinnon' this year. He always exudes class and professionalism, puts in the effort, and it seems like this is getting overlooked. Is this hard? No. But it has value.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

51 goals and 89 assists (or better) has been done by only 6 guys, including MacKinnon. That's only one more guy than the number of players that have hit 100 assists. I don't understand why all of it needs to be stacked into one category for it to be significant. Goals regularly get a bit more weight than assists. The guy with more goals won this one. Just doesn't seem all that surprising.

51 goals has been accomplished by a ton of guys, way more than 6.

 

[tucker3434]

51 goals has been accomplished by a ton of guys, way more than 6.

You missed the "and" in there.

MacKinnon was historically well rounded this year.

 

[Qwijibo]

There are certainly politics in the voting. Maybe if he wasn’t a total douche. He's a terrible ambassador for the game.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You missed the "and" in there.

MacKinnon was historically well rounded this year.

Oh god. What a stat. This is turning into one of those dead air space stats that they do to fill in time.

MacKinnon first player to get 51 goals, 89 assists, while being from Cole Harbour and having a coffee to start his day.

I am sorry but historically well rounded? Didn't McDavid literally sweep every category last year?

Literally the most well rounded season in at least a year!

 

[Beyonder91]

51 goals and 89 assists (or better) has been done by only 6 guys, including MacKinnon. That's only one more guy than the number of players that have hit 100 assists. I don't understand why all of it needs to be stacked into one category for it to be significant. Goals regularly get a bit more weight than assists. The guy with more goals won this one. Just doesn't seem all that surprising.

and 40G and 100A has been done by only 2 other players besides Kucherov

Gretzky & Lemieux

 

[tucker3434]

Oh god. What a stat. This is turning into one of those dead air space stats that they do to fill in time.

MacKinnon first player to get 51 goals, 89 assists, while being from Cole Harbour and having a coffee to start his day.

It's stats. It's no less arbitrary than 100 assists. And I think it's a little ridiculous that people are insinuating that MacKinnon would've had a better season if he had 11 less goals and 11 more assists. Give me the 11 goals 10 times out of 10.

and 40G and 100A has been done by only 2 other players besides Kucherov

Gretzky & Lemieux

See above. Why should assists count more than goals? Usually the argument is the opposite.

 

[Beyonder91]

It's stats. It's no less arbitrary than 100 assists. And I think it's a little ridiculous that people are insinuating that MacKinnon would've had a better season if he had 11 less goals and 11 more assists. Give me the 11 goals 10 times out of 10.

and Kucherov was in on 50% of his teams goals this year which has only happened 11 times in the history of the NHL - Mcdavid is the only other player in recent memory to accomplish this

I'm fine with Mackinnon getting the Lindsay this year (a more valuable award IMO) but Kucherov deserved the Hart based on it's definition

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

It's stats. It's no less arbitrary than 100 assists. And I think it's a little ridiculous that people are insinuating that MacKinnon would've had a better season if he had 11 less goals and 11 more assists. Give me the 11 goals 10 times out of 10.

Of course it is arbitrary. You literally chose it on the basis of the fact MacKinnon hit those numbers. There was no other logic that went into the cut off for your numbers. Your numbers are by definition arbitrary.

100 assists is a round number. A 'logical' cutoff, not an arbitrary one. Its commonly accepted in media and history books. Not sure if you are going to find people talking about 51 goals and 89 assists seasons ever. Like ever.

 

[Beyonder91]

It's stats. It's no less arbitrary than 100 assists. And I think it's a little ridiculous that people are insinuating that MacKinnon would've had a better season if he had 11 less goals and 11 more assists. Give me the 11 goals 10 times out of 10.

See above. Why should assists count more than goals? Usually the argument is the opposite.

Well if we really want to get into it it's impressive because it was done by a winger and Kucherov is now in the NHL record books for most assists by a winger. There's a reason it's only ever been done by centers before.
Historically it's been harder to hit 100 assists than it has been to hit 60 goals which Mackinnon didn't even do. These are just straight facts.

 

[Turin]

I’m a fan of Kucherovs game but I take MacKinnon over him every day.

 

[tucker3434]

Of course it is arbitrary. You literally chose it on the basis of the fact MacKinnon hit those numbers. There was no other logic that went into the cut off for your numbers. Your numbers are by definition arbitrary.

100 assists is a round number. A 'logical' cutoff, not an arbitrary one. Its commonly accepted in media and history books. Not sure if you are going to find people talking about 51 goals and 89 assists seasons ever. Like ever.

Well, personally, I don't think Kucherov has a significantly worse season if he ends up with 99 assists. I think that's a dumb argument. He had 100 on the nose. Good for him. But when it comes to benchmarking the seasons they had, why would we not use the actual numbers they achieved? That's the most accurate way to compare them historically. It's because it's convenient for the pro-Kucherov camp.

So again, is MacKinnon's season more impressive if he has 11 less goals and 11 more assists? Among the media and the players, that answer appears to be no.

Well if we really want to get into it it's impressive because it was done by a winger and Kucherov is now in the NHL record books for most assists by a winger. There's a reason it's only ever been done by centers before.
Historically it's been harder to hit 100 assists than it has been to hit 60 goals which Mackinnon didn't even do. These are just straight facts.

~50 goals is not MVP worthy. ~90 assists is not MVP worthy. Doing both at the same time is what gets him there.

 

[mr figgles]

Mackinnon plays the more important position. With how close they were in scoring, it was going to go to the center.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Well, personally, I don't think Kucherov has a significantly worse season if he ends up with 99 assists.

I don't think anybody else thinks he would have a significantly worse season, just that it wouldn't make history as one of the best playmaking seasons ever using a fun benchmark. 99 assists would be close, but then would be brought up less, like Mario's 199 point season.

I think that's a dumb argument.

You are the only one framing it as an argument. We don't need a strawman.

He had 100 on the nose. Good for him. But when it comes to benchmarking the seasons they had, why would we not use the actual numbers they achieved? That's the most accurate way to compare them historically. It's because it's convenient for the pro-Kucherov camp.

I have no idea what you are saying here. Are you saying there are people not using the actual numbers they had?

So again, is MacKinnon's season more impressive if he has 11 less goals and 11 more assists? Among the media and the players, that answer appears to be no.

Is his overall season more impressive, no. Would it be more historic? Of course. He would join McDavid, Kucherov, Mario, Gretzky, and Orr in future conversations for best playmaking season simply due to that number.

Obviously there is more to a season than just dishing the puck. But we will look back on the 100 assist seasons by Kucherov and McDavid and some will fairly ask why Kucherov didn't win the Hart. Obviously McDavid didn't play enough games and finished short in the goal scoring department, but one might start a thread on here in 10, 20, 30 years and wonder how Kucherov's historic 100 assist campaign didn't lead to the Hart, and we will hopefully have tucker3434 around here to rain the knowledge down on these ignorant fans.

Mackinnon plays the more important position. With how close they were in scoring, it was going to go to the center.

I can confidently say that the position they play had nothing to do with the voting.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The simple answer is yes. Kucherov is not a very likable player. First off he is Russian. So a language barrier is going to keep him from bonding with players around the league, who all are North American. I don't see him winning the Lindsay ever, which is definitely a popularity contest amongst players. If he didn't win it in 2019, he ain't winning that trophy.

Uh, he did win it in 2019?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Uh, he did win it in 2019?

Right you are, Midnight Judges! I think his All Star game incident and overall reputation with the media souring cost him a lot of votes this year for the Hart.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Right you are, Midnight Judges! I think his All Star game incident and overall reputation with the media souring cost him a lot of votes this year for the Hart.

That is a full blown accusation that the voters are breaking the rules and not following the stated award criteria.

 

[DamonDRW]

There are certainly politics in the voting. Maybe if he wasn’t a total douche. He's a terrible ambassador for the game.

And MacKinnon is a perfect ambassador, right? Despite speaking in native language he could barely say a couple of words more than "they come out strong, we come out flat, now in the third we will come out strong". f*** this shit.

 

[blankall]

Vasilevskiy had one of the all time best goalie playoff performances in 2021. He's also Russian BTW. He had a 1.9 GAA and a .937 GAA over 4 rounds and 23 games of playoffs. Kucherov losing the Conn Smythe to Vasilevskiy wasn't a personal slight. Vasilevskiy was good, really good.

 

[NVious]

Facts about Kucherov:
Dirty
Drunk
Fakes injuries

You can't award this guy. While Nathan is promoting eating cauliflower, saying your prayers and being a good citizen "Kooch's" message for the kids is to do drugs, play dirty and if you need to cheat go for it.

He's lucky the NHL still allows him to play tbh.

 

[tucker3434]

I don't think anybody else thinks he would have a significantly worse season, just that it wouldn't make history as one of the best playmaking seasons ever using a fun benchmark. 99 assists would be close, but then would be brought up less, like Mario's 199 point season.

You are the only one framing it as an argument. We don't need a strawman.

I have no idea what you are saying here. Are you saying there are people not using the actual numbers they had?

Is his overall season more impressive, no. Would it be more historic? Of course. He would join McDavid, Kucherov, Mario, Gretzky, and Orr in future conversations for best playmaking season simply due to that number.

Obviously there is more to a season than just dishing the puck. But we will look back on the 100 assist seasons by Kucherov and McDavid and some will fairly ask why Kucherov didn't win the Hart. Obviously McDavid didn't play enough games and finished short in the goal scoring department, but one might start a thread on here in 10, 20, 30 years and wonder how Kucherov's historic 100 assist campaign didn't lead to the Hart, and we will hopefully have tucker3434 around here to rain the knowledge down on these ignorant fans.


I can confidently say that the position they play had nothing to do with the voting.

My point here is that people are making that 100th assist out to be worth significantly more than the 99th. And that doesn't really make sense to me.

In a vacuum, under normal circumstances, people would tend to say a guy with a 50-50-100 stat line had a more impressive season than a guy that was 30-70-100. There's no such thing as a secondary goal. Goals carry a touch more weight. And I don't see why that should change, as long as the total point numbers remain close. Achieving an arbitrary milestone shouldn't reverse that.

If MacKinnon has 50 goals and 70 assists, Kucherov sweeps the awards. Goals aren't worth that much more. But that isn't where we landed. The players and media stuck to their usual playbook, and people shouldn't be surprised. It was just two years ago that Matthews took the awards while be 30 assists back of McDavid.