Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

[Trinstin]

At their best, Forsberg crushes Jagr and while it is close, I just would never take Jagr over Peter Forsberg, if he is healthy (which he never was lol)

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

so defesnive play is meaningless?

then I guess your rankings make more sense in that light, myself I look at the complete picture not just part of it.

It's pretty clear you've got an axe to grind with Ovechkin. The fact that you're sitting there talking about what conference he's in during an MVP year is proof of that.

funny thing is that Kuneztsov was his center for around 75% of the time at ES in the 17-18 playoffs

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

so that's not really a very good argument is it?

And yet... OV won the trophy. I wonder why?

Obviously he didn't deserve it though right?

Well the vote did go 1090 to 1058 so no it would not have been very surprising.

Remind me... who did they vote in favour of?

Well Fedorov had his Conn Smythe worthy 17-7-17-24 plus 13 playoff before any of those guys joined the team.

Who cares?

Nobody's doubting that he was a great player anymore than Steve Yzerman was a great player. But they didn't win cups until those other HOFers came onboard.

In fact here are the ages of those guys when they joined the Red Wings

Robitalle 35
Hasek 37
Hull 37 (both Fedorov and Lidstrom had already cemented their HHOF resumes by then)
Shanahan 28 (Feds already had 2 of his 4 consecutive 20 plus point years in the playoffs at that point)
Chelios 37

Both Fedorov and Lidstrom were established elite players by the time all these guys joined the Red Wings.

Yes, what a crappy team they must have been with all of those HOFers - not to mention Larionov and Fetisov. It's a wonder how they won those cups.

Hull led the league in the playoffs for goals. Shanahan had just as many points as Fedorov with more goals. Chelios was two points off of Lidstrom, Hasek was the starting goalie... and Yzerman was the highest scorer on the team.

They were a 116 point team (15 higher than the next closest) in first place. That club was absolutely stacked.

I have already acknowldged that he is the best goal scorer of all time.

And then you've downplayed his awards and talked about how he was in a weak conference when winning one. And at the same time you're downplaying how good those Wing teams were. Meanwhile two of the players your citing here were teammates on those rosters...

No the 2 that I'm referring too 12-13 Hart and 17-18 Smythe there were better players to win it and I showed upthread why.

I'd never say that individual awards can't be debated. But you're talking like they were undeserved... that's not the case.

And we can flip this around. How about 2010? You could make a really good case for Ovechkin winning the Hart that year as well. He misses ten games and he's three points off the leader and one point off from the Richard. He could've easily won that one as well and then we're talking about four Harts.

Where did I say that his season shouldn't count, that's a long way from what I said, that Crosby deserved the Hart over him.

I don't agree and neither did the voters.

It won't help if he is a total liability out there and he is hanging on just to score the last few goals he needs.

It's all moot anyways probably as he needs 236 goals and will be 34 to start next season.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

2 players have scored more than 236 goals past that age and both of them in a much weaker NHL.

It would be a great story but I don't think that he will get there.

We'll see.

The fact that we're even talking about this underscores how good he's been. That was seen as an unbreakable record and he's got a legit shot at it. Regardless, his dominance over the years has to be recognized. None of the players you have listed have ever won three Harts and you could make the case that OV should have four.

no goals do matter, so do assists and 2 way play, playoffs, international play ect....

Sure. But goals count for a lot more than assists do. That's why a guy like Yzerman is held in much higher regard than a guy like Adam Oates. Great goal scorers have become increasingly rare and the degree to which OV has dominated is pretty close to unprecedented.

Wayne Gretzky was a pretty crappy defensive player. Nobody cares about it though.

Nothing I just don't drink the goal scoring kool- aid and overlook the other stuff.

I don't think there's much to overlook here. As I said, Gretzky wasn't a good defensive player either. But nobody in his right mind would take Fedorov or Brian Trottier over him. The offense is just too overwhelming to overlook.

Fedorov, Forsberg, Makarov... it's not close. Jagr, Hasek and Lidstrom... different story. There are great debates to be had there. But to say that they're on a different level than OV is just flat out false.

 

[Shaman464]

It's pretty clear you've got an axe to grind with Ovechkin. The fact that you're sitting there talking about what conference he's in during an MVP year is proof of that.


And yet... OV won the trophy. I wonder why?

Obviously he didn't deserve it though right?


Remind me... who did they vote in favour of?


Who cares?

Nobody's doubting that he was a great player anymore than Steve Yzerman was a great player. But they didn't win cups until those other HOFers came onboard.

Yes, what a crappy team they must have been with all of those HOFers - not to mention Larionov and Fetisov. It's a wonder how they won those cups.


And then you've downplayed his awards and talked about how he was in a weak conference when winning one. And at the same time you're downplaying how good those Wing teams were. Meanwhile two of the players your citing here were teammates on those rosters...


I'd never say that individual awards can't be debated. But you're talking like they were undeserved... that's not the case.

And we can flip this around. How about 2010? You could make a really good case for Ovechkin winning the Hart that year as well. He misses ten games and he's three points off the leader and one point off from the Richard. He could've easily won that one as well and then we're talking about four Harts.


I don't agree and neither did the voters.



We'll see.

The fact that we're even talking about this underscores how good he's been. That was seen as an unbreakable record and he's got a legit shot at it. Regardless, his dominance over the years has to be recognized. None of the players you have listed have ever won three Harts and you could make the case that OV should have four.

Sure. But goals count for a lot more than assists do. That's why a guy like Yzerman is held in much higher regard than a guy like Adam Oates. Great goal scorers have become increasingly rare and the degree to which OV has dominated is pretty close to unprecedented.

Wayne Gretzky was a pretty crappy defensive player. Nobody cares about it though.

I don't think there's much to overlook here. As I said, Gretzky wasn't a good defensive player either. But nobody in his right mind would take Fedorov or Brian Trottier over him. The offense is just too overwhelming to overlook.

Fedorov, Forsberg, Makarov... it's not close. Jagr, Hasek and Lidstrom... different story. There are great debates to be had there. But to say that they're on a different level than OV is just flat out false.

If OV retires right now he's not on the same tier as Jagr, Hasek or Lidstrom. Hasek and Lidstrom were considered for years to be the best player at their position. Jagr had a few other guys his career overlapped with that were either GOATs or close to it. It'd take a lot for OV to surpass any of those three to be top 3 best Euros ever to play, but he likely firmly ends in fourth.

 

[Albatros]

Trottier has six rings, maybe offense is overrated at times.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Trottier has six rings, maybe offense is overrated at times.

He was the third best player on those Islander teams. And a third line center on the Pens.

Great, great player. I wouldn't have brought him up otherwise. And he's certainly a more complete player than Gretzky was.

But would you take him over Gretzky? No way.

That kind of scoring talent it very hard to find. As much as two way play is valuable when you land a generational scorer, you take it and run.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If OV retires right now he's not on the same tier as Jagr, Hasek or Lidstrom. Hasek and Lidstrom were considered for years to be the best player at their position. Jagr had a few other guys his career overlapped with that were either GOATs or close to it. It'd take a lot for OV to surpass any of those three to be top 3 best Euros ever to play, but he likely firmly ends in fourth.

3 Harts
Smythe
Eight Richards

I don't see how he's a tier below.

I can see how he'd place fourth in that group. But I can also see how he could finish at the top. To be scoring at the rate he is now is pretty crazy. At a minimum he's in the conversation.

 

[Shaman464]

3 Harts
Smythe
Eight Richards

I don't see how he's a tier below.

I can see how he'd place fourth in that group. But I can also see how he could finish at the top. To be scoring at the rate he is now is pretty crazy. At a minimum he's in the conversation.

He's not on the same tier yet. Jagr is 2nd in scoring. Ever. Hasek has 2 Harts as a goalie, plus all his goalie awards. And Lidstrom may not have any Harts (D-men just don't get noticed for them, since 1972 only one defender has won one), but he has Norris's, cups, and is the archetype for positional defenders. OV just isn't there yet. He might be close when its all said and done, but, he's not going to be a top 5 forward (like Jagr) and top 3 defender (like Lidstrom) or arguably the best goalie eve (like Hasek).

 

[Albatros]

He was the third best player on those Islander teams. And a third line center on the Pens.

Great, great player. I wouldn't have brought him up otherwise. And he's certainly a more complete player than Gretzky was.

But would you take him over Gretzky? No way.

That kind of scoring talent it very hard to find. As much as two way play is valuable when you land a generational scorer, you take it and run.

I think it depends, would the Islanders have won four straight with Gretzky? Trottier was the best offensive player in the league before they started winning, but the defensive aspects he developed had as much of a role in it. Gretzky would have been even more offense, but at the expense of that defense.

 

[wetcoast]

It's pretty clear you've got an axe to grind with Ovechkin. The fact that you're sitting there talking about what conference he's in during an MVP year is proof of that.

The fact of the matter is that the schedule was unbalanced that year, that's why he scored 32 goals after 2 seasons of 32 and 38 goals.

That's a fact not an axe.

And yet... OV won the trophy. I wonder why?

Obviously he didn't deserve it though right?

Yes it was so clear that's why the margin was so huge 1090 to 1058 so yes it easily could have gone the other way.

Who cares?

Nobody's doubting that he was a great player anymore than Steve Yzerman was a great player. But they didn't win cups until those other HOFers came onboard.

well yes they actually won 2 SC beofroe most of those guys arrived, ie all of them except Shanny

Yes, what a crappy team they must have been with all of those HOFers - not to mention Larionov and Fetisov. It's a wonder how they won those cups.

see my note above on how successful they were before most of the HHOF aged crew arrived.

Hull led the league in the playoffs for goals. Shanahan had just as many points as Fedorov with more goals. Chelios was two points off of Lidstrom and Hasek was the starting goalie... and Yzerman was the highest scorer on the team.

Yet Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe in yet another great playoff performance.

Federov had 19 points playing an excellent 2 way game.

That club was absolutely stacked.

Yes it was yet Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe and Federov was the highest TOI forward playing hard minutes.

And then you've downplayed his awards and talked about how he was in a weak conference when winning one. And at the same time you're downplaying how good those Wing teams were. Meanwhile two of the players your citing here were teammates on those rosters...

I'm not downplaying how good those teams were, they were in fact excellent before the HHOF oldtimers were brought in that's the point yopu are missing.

I'd never say that individual awards can't be debated. But you're talking like they were undeserved... that's not the case.

you are the only one using the term underserved, I'm pointing out that 2 players had better resumes for the Hart and Conn Smythe that year, that's quite a difference from undeserving.

And we can flip this around. How about 2010? You could make a really good case for Ovechkin winning the Hart that year as well. He misses ten games and he's three points off the leader and one point off from the Richard. He could've easily won that one as well and then we're talking about four Harts.

Sure I remeber that year well as I live in Vancouver and there was a big push for Henrik Sedin put by the Vancouver Canucks throughout the media starting really heavy in January of that year.

Ovechkin surely was in the mix, as indicated by voting where he was 2nd to Hank 894-834 but he missed time due to a suspension pretty hard to defend that as opposed to an injury.

Hank scoring 83 ESP that year an d still going strong despite his twin Daniel going down also added to the narrative for Sedin for the Hart that year.

The 4 Harts argument is that if everything goes Ovechkins way and you would need to apply the same to other players if you want to be fair.

The fact that we're even talking about this underscores how good he's been. That was seen as an unbreakable record and he's got a legit shot at it. Regardless, his dominance over the years has to be recognized. None of the players you have listed have ever won three Harts and you could make the case that OV should have four.

Well if you want to give Ovechkin the benefit of the doubt do the same for jagr and he has more Harts as well.

Sure. But goals count for a lot more than assists do. That's why a guy like Yzerman is held in much higher regard than a guy like Adam Oates. Great goal scorers have become increasingly rare and the degree to which OV has dominated is pretty close to unprecedented.

Yzerman is held in higher reguard for 2 reasons.

1. He won 4 SC's
2. He was a better 2 way player than Oates.

Wayne Gretzky was a pretty crappy defensive player. Nobody cares about it though.

No they didn't because he titled the ice so much in his prime, something Ovechkin simply doesn't do.

I don't think there's much to overlook here. As I said, Gretzky wasn't a good defensive player either. But nobody in his right mind would take Fedorov or Brian Trottier over him. The offense is just too overwhelming to overlook.

Well Gretzky outscored Federov and Federov had a dominant Hart win that year so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Fedorov, Forsberg, Makarov... it's not close. Jagr, Hasek and Lidstrom... different story. There are great debates to be had there. But to say that they're on a different level than OV is just flat out false.

Federov, Forsberg and Makarov all titled the ice more and for longer than Ovechkin did that's why I put them in the mix but at some point Ovechkin scoring more goals will overtake that postion.

 

[SeanConn]

Jagr, Hasek, Bure/Forsberg.

Yeah laugh all you want, but Bure brought your interest here if you were living in early 90's europe.

edit: ill throw in a wild card, Jere Lehtinen

What about Selanne?


IMO, Jagr is the greatest, but Hasek is damned close.

 

[Crease Master]

Is Jagr the best player from Europe that has ever played the game in the NHL of all time

No, but he has longevity and may be the best goal scorer though. Not too shabby. It's probably Forsberg or Larionov for straight up best.

 

[Fugazy]

Case can be made. Forsberg deserves to be in that discussion as well.

 

[Aurinko]

What about Selanne?


IMO, Jagr is the greatest, but Hasek is damned close.

76 goals in the rookie season alone is enough to get into the HoF.

If Selänne had created better leadership skills or defensive traits, he would be in this discussion.

 

[gwh]

The best european ever is probably Tretiak. Just didn't play in the NHL.

The best NHL euro is one of Hasek-Jagr-Lindstrom. Ovie is going to be in the talks since he still clearly has years left.

 

[b in vancouver]

I don't see a lot of support for Kurri in this discussion so far. Is it due to all his years of being Gretzky's wingman?

What a wonderful player he was....he played a 200-foot game, and was fun to watch.

Maybe not top 3 Europeans of all time, but definitely in the top 10

For my money, the two guys whom get over-looked the most are Kent Nilsson and Peter Statsny.

Kent Nilsson never had the career, but he was probably the only player in the 80s whom could've challenged Gretzky pre-Lemieux. When he was focused he was the best player on the ice - including in The Battle Of Alberta. He was honestly that good. One of the most talented players I've ever seen - just disappointing we never got to see him actually try more.

Peter Statsny was pretty much everything you want in a hockey player. But no superstar that I can think of has ever had less support in their careers. Michel Goulet and... uhh... well they gave his brothers NHL jobs on the top line so there's that - I guess as at least one of them was an NHL calibre player while the other couldn't really skate. Go have fun! In any other circumstance Statsny would be talked about like Yzerman or Messier.

 

[b in vancouver]

At their best, Forsberg crushes Jagr and while it is close, I just would never take Jagr over Peter Forsberg, if he is healthy (which he never was lol)

At their best - I'll take Kent Nilsson over Forsberg.

 

[bobholly39]

He's not on the same tier yet. Jagr is 2nd in scoring. Ever. Hasek has 2 Harts as a goalie, plus all his goalie awards. And Lidstrom may not have any Harts (D-men just don't get noticed for them, since 1972 only one defender has won one), but he has Norris's, cups, and is the archetype for positional defenders. OV just isn't there yet. He might be close when its all said and done, but, he's not going to be a top 5 forward (like Jagr) and top 3 defender (like Lidstrom) or arguably the best goalie eve (like Hasek).

Jagr isnt a top 5 forward ever
Lidstrom isnt a top 3 defender ever
Hasek is not the best goalie ever. Maybe "arguably" - but majority don't have him as #1.

 

[psycat]

3 Harts
Smythe
Eight Richards

I don't see how he's a tier below.

I can see how he'd place fourth in that group. But I can also see how he could finish at the top. To be scoring at the rate he is now is pretty crazy. At a minimum he's in the conversation.

I would say Hasek and Jagr(probably in order) are at the top followed by Lidström and Ovechkin in no order. That said it's pretty hard to compare different positions but I can't really see a case for Ovechkin being above Jagr.

 

[wetcoast]

He was the third best player on those Islander teams. And a third line center on the Pens.

Great, great player. I wouldn't have brought him up otherwise. And he's certainly a more complete player than Gretzky was.

But would you take him over Gretzky? No way.

That kind of scoring talent it very hard to find. As much as two way play is valuable when you land a generational scorer, you take it and run.

Sure but Ovechkin isn't Gretzky and never has been so why bring it up?

 

[wetcoast]

Jagr isnt a top 5 forward ever
Lidstrom isnt a top 3 defender ever
Hasek is not the best goalie ever. Maybe "arguably" - but majority don't have him as #1.

Yet Jagr does have a strong claim to top 5 forward ever, Lidstrom to being a top 3 defender ever and Hasek a claim to top goalie ever as well.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The fact of the matter is that the schedule was unbalanced that year, that's why he scored 32 goals after 2 seasons of 32 and 38 goals.

That's a fact not an axe.

It's also a fact that he won the Hart.

Yes it was so clear that's why the margin was so huge 1090 to 1058 so yes it easily could have gone the other way.

And the 2010 Hart could've gone the other way as well. That would've given Ovechkin four Harts.

well yes they actually won 2 SC beofroe most of those guys arrived, ie all of them except Shanny

Hasek did NOT win a cup before this. Lidstrom and Fedorov did. And as I said, they won on powerhouse teams that were better than anything Ovechkin played on. So to sit there and talk about postseason success when you've got three guys you've named as the best ever all in the same lineup and another guy playing with Mario Lemieux for his... sorry but no.

How many cups do you think Ovechkin wins if he's with Yzerman, Shanahan, Fetisov, Larionov etc... How many cups does he win with Mario Lemieux?

see my note above on how successful they were before most of the HHOF aged crew arrived.

And you are wrong when it comes to Hasek.

Moreover, you are avoiding the obvious point I made. They won on absolutely stacked teams where they weren't even the best players on those teams.

Yet Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe in yet another great playoff performance.

Federov had 19 points playing an excellent 2 way game.

Yes it was yet Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe and Federov was the highest TOI forward playing hard minutes.

And they are great players. I'd never say otherwise.

You are making the argument that they have better postseason resumes... it's a hell of a lot easier to do that in stacked lineups without a salary cap. Notice that three of the players you named here played - with each other. And also notice that they had other HOF best of all time players in the lineup who were arguably better than they were.

I'm not downplaying how good those teams were, they were in fact excellent before the HHOF oldtimers were brought in that's the point yopu are missing.

I'm not missing anything. As I told you... Hasek doesn't win his cup without those teams.

And those other players have great postseason records largely because of the clubs they were on. Forget Shanahan, Hull or any of those other players. How many more cups does Ovechkin have if you just put Yzerman on his team?

you are the only one using the term underserved, I'm pointing out that 2 players had better resumes for the Hart and Conn Smythe that year, that's quite a difference from undeserving.

And the voters disagreed. I also disagree with you. And I've pointed to the fact that Ovechkin could easily have won a fourth Hart in 2010.

Sure I remeber that year well as I live in Vancouver and there was a big push for Henrik Sedin put by the Vancouver Canucks throughout the media starting really heavy in January of that year.

Ovechkin surely was in the mix, as indicated by voting where he was 2nd to Hank 894-834 but he missed time due to a suspension pretty hard to defend that as opposed to an injury.

Hank scoring 83 ESP that year an d still going strong despite his twin Daniel going down also added to the narrative for Sedin for the Hart that year.

The 4 Harts argument is that if everything goes Ovechkins way and you would need to apply the same to other players if you want to be fair.

I'm not pretending he has four Harts. You're saying he should only have two. On the flipside it could easily be four. And honestly... it probably should be.

Three Harts and a Conn Smythe. Sick.

Well if you want to give Ovechkin the benefit of the doubt do the same for jagr and he has more Harts as well.

Jagr was a beast. Five Art Rosses is incredible. He'd be tough to match. But Ovechkin's career isn't over yet and he's already had some insane accomplishments. The guy is STILL putting up 50 goal seasons right now in a league where it rarely happens. He's ahead of the entire league for 50 goal seasons. That's craziness.

Yzerman is held in higher reguard for 2 reasons.

1. He won 4 SC's
2. He was a better 2 way player than Oates.

Yzerman was held in better regard than Oates long before he won those cups. And it's because he'd had almost six straight years of 50/100.

No they didn't because he titled the ice so much in his prime, something Ovechkin simply doesn't do.

Well Gretzky outscored Federov and Federov had a dominant Hart win that year so I'm not sure what your point is here.

My point is that offense is not easy to come by. As much as two way play is valued and every team in the league would love to have a Fedorov or a Trottier, generational scorers are going to be valued higher. There's no way that Fedorov's career matches up with OV's. None.

Federov, Forsberg and Makarov all titled the ice more and for longer than Ovechkin did that's why I put them in the mix but at some point Ovechkin scoring more goals will overtake that postion.

Ovechkin blows them away. This is not close.

Markarov simply doesn't have the resume. He played almost his entire career with the Green Five and didn't dominate once in the NHL. Forsberg might've been able to do it but health got in the way. He doesn't have the resume. Fedorov never dominated the league the way Ovechkin did nor did his peak last nearly as long. Those guys are out of the conversation.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think it depends, would the Islanders have won four straight with Gretzky? Trottier was the best offensive player in the league before they started winning, but the defensive aspects he developed had as much of a role in it. Gretzky would have been even more offense, but at the expense of that defense.

The Islanders would've won tons of cups with Gretzky... hell, they lost to Gretzky in '84. Let's get real here. Gretzky went to the Kings and immediately turned them into contenders and this was after his prime.

Generational scorers turn mediocre teams into contenders. They can't win cups by themselves (nobody can) but they can turn decent clubs into cup winners. Add prime Ovechkin to most teams and they'd become immediate contenders today.

 

[wetcoast]

It's also a fact that he won the Hart.

And the 2010 Hart could've gone the other way as well. That would've given Ovechkin four Harts.

Hasek did NOT win a cup before this. Lidstrom and Fedorov did. And as I said, they won on powerhouse teams that were better than anything Ovechkin played on. So to sit there and talk about postseason success when you've got three guys you've named as the best ever all in the same lineup and another guy playing with Mario Lemieux for his... sorry but no.

How many cups do you think Ovechkin wins if he's with Yzerman, Shanahan, Fetisov, Larionov etc... How many cups does he win with Mario Lemieux?

And you are wrong when it comes to Hasek.

Moreover, you are avoiding the obvious point I made. They won on absolutely stacked teams where they weren't even the best players on those teams.

And they are great players. I'd never say otherwise.

You are making the argument that they have better postseason resumes... it's a hell of a lot easier to do that in stacked lineups without a salary cap. Notice that three of the players you named here played - with each other. And also notice that they had other HOF best of all time players in the lineup who were arguably better than they were.

I'm not missing anything. As I told you... Hasek doesn't win his cup without those teams.

And those other players have great postseason records largely because of the clubs they were on. Forget Shanahan, Hull or any of those other players. How many more cups does Ovechkin have if you just put Yzerman on his team?

And the voters disagreed. I also disagree with you. And I've pointed to the fact that Ovechkin could easily have won a fourth Hart in 2010.


I'm not pretending he has four Harts. You're saying he should only have two. On the flipside it could easily be four. And honestly... it probably should be.

Three Harts and a Conn Smythe. Sick.

Jagr was a beast. Five Art Rosses is incredible. He'd be tough to match. But Ovechkin's career isn't over yet and he's already had some insane accomplishments. The guy is STILL putting up 50 goal seasons right now in a league where it rarely happens. He's ahead of the entire league for 50 goal seasons. That's craziness.


Yzerman was held in better regard than Oates long before he won those cups. And it's because he'd had almost six straight years of 50/100.

My point is that offense is not easy to come by. As much as two way play is valued and every team in the league would love to have a Fedorov or a Trottier, generational scorers are going to be valued higher. There's no way that Fedorov's career matches up with OV's. None.


Ovechkin blows them away. This is not close.

Markarov simply doesn't have the resume. He played almost his entire career with the Green Five and didn't dominate once in the NHL. Forsberg might've been able to do it but health got in the way. He doesn't have the resume. Fedorov never dominated the league the way Ovechkin did nor did his peak last nearly as long. Those guys are out of the conversation.

I'll reply more later but you don't seem to understand the term titling the ice (which Frosberg, Fedorov and Makarov all did) very well and generational scorer like Gretzky is entirely different than being a generational goal scorer.

Ovechkin has these top 10 point finishes

1,2,2,3,3,4,7,8 that's not only not generational it's not even the best in his generation.

Crosby has 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10

So let's take away the identical finishes here

Crosby still stands with 1,3,3,5,6,10 over a 4,7,8 right?

 

[LateSleeper]

Jagr isnt a top 5 forward ever
Lidstrom isnt a top 3 defender ever
Hasek is not the best goalie ever. Maybe "arguably" - but majority don't have him as #1.

Check this:

Best goalie in NHL history.

And this:

MAJORITY | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He's not on the same tier yet. Jagr is 2nd in scoring. Ever. Hasek has 2 Harts as a goalie, plus all his goalie awards. And Lidstrom may not have any Harts (D-men just don't get noticed for them, since 1972 only one defender has won one), but he has Norris's, cups, and is the archetype for positional defenders. OV just isn't there yet. He might be close when its all said and done, but, he's not going to be a top 5 forward (like Jagr) and top 3 defender (like Lidstrom) or arguably the best goalie eve (like Hasek).

One of the reasons Jagr is so highly regarded is because he was good for so long. We haven't had the chance to evaluate OV's entire career yet. But if it ended tomorrow in a bus crash, I think you could make a legit argument that he'd be right there with Jagr.

Jagr cools off from 29 to 33. At 33 he comes back strong with a 130 point year. Then he fades and leaves the league. Ovechkin's actually been better from 29 onward so far. He's been actually more consistent than Jagr's been.

Going to be interesting to see what happens going forward. But as of now OV hasn't really shown any slowing down. Health will be the determining factor.

Jagr's peak is hard to match. Apart from that peak though, he's very good for a very long time. But he's not leading the league in goals the way OV is. Jagr racks up points though. He's pretty awesome.