Lafleurs Guy
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Let's move on from the best blueliner debate. That can be done in history of hockey.
Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?
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Yep, he will probably be the best (and maybe the greatest goalscorer of all time) when his career will be over. Eight Richards is insane in any era.
I guess he is still building his case but aside from the Rockets he is probably the least well rounded of the 4 guys mentioned.
Lafleurs Guy
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Sure and none of the other 3 have a single shutout right?
That being said I was obviously talking about position players, goalies are a whole different animal.
Aside from Jagr and Lidstrom, Ovechkin, Forsberg ,Fedorov and Makarov all have strong cases to be in a "big 4" group not from Canada. Fetisov is less clear to me since he didn't age well in a postion where aging has a less dramatic impact on elite position players than forwards.
Taking Hasek out of the equation (he could be first, second or 3rd most likely) I have them ranked like this right now.
Lidstrom
Jagr
Makarov
Forsberg
Fedorov
Ovechkin
the last 4 guys are really close and somewhat interchangeable and Ovechkin is still adding to his case.
At some point his pure all time best goal scoring resume will have him up with the first 2 no doubt.
Lafleurs Guy
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No way on God's green earth that OV would be behind those other guys. He's surpassed them all a while ago. Lidstrom, Jagr and Hasek you can make a strong argument for... but OV has to be in that conversation. No freaking way Makarov touches Ovechkin at this point. Ditto for Forsberg or Fedorov. That's not close.
Ovechkin is moving into Richard/Bobby Hull territory. Eight rockets and he might have some more in him. He could very well break Gretzky's record. I don't see how any of those other players have anywhere near that kind of resume.
Are you totally overlooking international and play in Europe for Makarov and Forsberg?
Forsberg and Fedorov have vastly better playoff resumes than Ocvechkin does.
The thing is that Ovechkin's best of all time status pretty much begins and ends with the Rockets and his goal scoring, especially outside of his first 4 years in the NHL.
After that it's been pretty much "he is the best goal scorer in the world" and not that much else.
Like I said he will be up there with Lidstrom, Jagr and even Hasek at the end of the day but not yet IMO.
He's a 3 time MVP, has a scoring title, a Conn Smythe, is one of the more physical offensive forwards year in and year out... He has one of the most complete resumes in NHL history. As a Wings fan who loves Lidstrom and Hasek, Ovechkin is already at or near the top of the list if he retires today.
Lafleurs Guy
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Their play in Europe doesn't make up for Ovechkin's years of dominance in the NHL. You could make a strong case for him being the best European ever ahead of Lidstrom, Jagr and Hasek already. None of those guys ever won three Harts. Only Lidstrom won a Smythe.
A lot of people would put OV at the top of this list already. And it would be hard to disagree with them.
Like I said after his first 4 years he has been basically a goal scorer.
The 12/13 Hart was a bit of a joke considering the unbalanced schedule, even his Conn smythe wasn't a lock, just a better narrative.
In his 4 year initial peak he was much better rounded and more physical, actually drove play, not so much after that as he has really relied on the most ice time on the PP in the elague (by quite a margin) nd has become more of a shooter than a guy who drives play.
All of the other guys I mentioned drove play more at the same age as Ovechkin has in the last 8-9 years.
The first thing one thinks about with Ovechkin is being the greatest goal scorer of all time and rightly so.
Sure and alot of people also won't look any further than the regular season stats.
His last Hart and Conn Smythe are very debatable ones, ie they don't hold up very well under inspection.
Also like I stated upthread Forsberg, Fedorov and Lidstrom all have vastly better playoff and international resumes than Ovechkin does.
Lafleurs Guy
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Please don't tell me OV doesn't deserve those awards.
As for playoff resumes, I don't think Jagr's playoff resume is better than OV's. Hasek's isnt' all that great either. Lidstrom's is better but he was on some of the best teams ever assembled. Jagr played with Lemieux for his cups. Fedorov and Lidstrom played together with Yzerman and Hasek... Forsberg was playing with Joe Sakic and Patrick Roy.
It's within the realm of possibility that OV is going to break Gretzky's record. The European resume's don't move the needle here. The NHL is the best league in the world and OV has dominated it for over a decade. I don't see how he's not included in the top four - if not at the very top.
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12-13 Hart
is 48-32-24-56 plus 2 really better than 36-15-41-56 plus 26?
17-18 Conn Smythe
is 24-15-12-27 (9-7-16 at ES) really better than 24-12-20-32 (9-11-20 ES)?
Crosby and Kuz win those 2 awards and no one blinks an eye.
The Wings were crap when Fedorov and Lidstrom both joined the Red wings and made them into a contender, heck Fedorov was still an excellent player at age 34 with the ducks but the low scoring of the era might hide that from people only looking at counting stats.
Sure Ovechkin might beat Gretzky's goal record (for the record I don't think he will and even if he does it will as a playing just hanging on which might actually hurt his legacy a bit).
Ovechkin was a dominant player in his first 5 years in the NHL, since then very much less so.
Heck since 09-10 he hasn't had a season over 90 points.
To be fair the 12-13 lockout shortened season did project at over 90 points but it wasn't a balanced schedule and Ovechkin really feasted off the southeastern conference that year.
Dude.. You're making me argue against the Wings here, and I really don't like to do that.. But you can't compare the way teams were assembled in the 90s to any team now.
Obviously Lidstrom and Fed were a big reason for the Wing's success... But so were Yzerman, Larionov, Fetisov, Vladdy, Hasek, Shanny, Murphy, Chelios, Lucky Luc, Hull, Datsyuk, Kozlov, Osgood, Homer, the Grind Line, Vernon... And that's just off the top of my head. There were what, 10 HOFers on the 02 team? The Caps have maybe 1-2 on their team last year? You can't use something as arbitrary as team success as the main reason you're advocating for one guy over another.
I was just responding to another post and BTW alot of those guys you mentioned were on the back end of their careers when they joined the Red Wings.
For the record, the argument that Ovechkin hasn't had very much help isn't really true for most of his career.
Lafleurs Guy
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Yes!!!
And plus/minus stats are meaningless.
Yes. Esp when you factor in who those other teams are checking.
I think they would, esp on that Hart award. Not sure how you can justify Crosby over Ovechkin when he's got double the goals.
You mean when they, Robitaille, Hasek, Hull, Shanahan and Chelios joined them?
?????
He has EIGHT Richards. He's also got eight 50 goal seasons (just missing another by one) and the rest of the league's active players combined have seven. He's putting up 5o goal seasons into his early 30s. Those are crazy numbers. Nobody has been able to do this other than Bossy and Gretzky.
So let me get this straight...
- He didn't deserve his Hart or Conn Smythe
- He feasted off the southeast so the 2013 seasons shouldn't really count either
- He's going to tarnish his legacy by sticking around to break Gretzky's record
- All we care about are his points, his goals don't matter
What have you got against this guy?
Compared to Lidstrom, Fedorov, Forsberg, and Jagr he has had significantly less help. Each of those guys had players on their teams at most positions that were borderline or clear HOFers at or near their primes.
Lafleurs Guy
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It was a powerhouse of epic proportions. All those guys were HOFers and they were joined by Larionov and Fetisov... another two guys who'd be considered best all time players. OV has never had that kind of team behind him. Lidstrom might not have even been the best player on that team. And Jagr definitely wasn't the best player on his. Hasek only managed to win a cup on that powerhouse Detroit team as well...
You're saying that Lidstrom and Hasek are two of the best ever... and they were each on the same team that won Hasek his cup.
Nobody said he hasn't had much help. But those other players all won their cups on powerhouse teams where they were arguably not even the best players on their teams. Jagr definitely wasn't.
so defesnive play is meaningless?
then I guess your rankings make more sense in that light, myself I look at the complete picture not just part of it.
funny thing is that Kuneztsov was his center for around 75% of the time at ES in the 17-18 playoffs
Line Combinations - Frozen Tools
so that's not really a very good argument is it?
Well the vote did go 1090 to 1058 so no it would not have been very surprising.
Well Fedorov had his Conn Smythe worthy 17-7-17-24 plus 13 playoff before any of those guys joined the team.
In fact here are the ages of those guys when they joined the Red Wings
Robitalle 35
Hasek 37
Hull 37 (both Fedorov and Lidstrom had already cemented their HHOF resumes by then)
Shanahan 28 (Feds already had 2 of his 4 consecutive 20 plus point years in the playoffs at that point)
Chelios 37
Both Fedorov and Lidstrom were established elite players by the time all these guys joined the Red Wings.
I have already acknowldged that he is the best goal scorer of all time.
No the 2 that I'm referring too 12-13 Hart and 17-18 Smythe there were better players to win it and I showed upthread why.
Where did I say that his season shouldn't count, that's a long way from what I said, that Crosby deserved the Hart over him.
It won't help if he is a total liability out there and he is hanging on just to score the last few goals he needs.
It's all moot anyways probably as he needs 236 goals and will be 34 to start next season.
Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com
2 players have scored more than 236 goals past that age and both of them in a much weaker NHL.
It would be a great story but I don't think that he will get there.
no goals do matter, so do assists and 2 way play, playoffs, international play ect....
Nothing I just don't drink the goal scoring kool- aid and overlook the other stuff.
No matter how you slice it Lidstrom, Forsberg and Fedorov were superior playoff perfomers than Ovechkin you really need to move past this point.
Forsberg also had to play against the Red Wings and Strong Dallas team in the western conference of the late 90's.
Ovechkin's capitals have won 9 divison titles and 2nd 2 times in the 14 years Ovechkin has been in the NHL, the difference is really being overstated here.
Jagr had Mario for some of his prime and alot of the late 90's teams were horrible in Pittsburgh so how does that apply?
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Mandar
The Real Maven
I don't see a lot of support for Kurri in this discussion so far. Is it due to all his years of being Gretzky's wingman?
What a wonderful player he was....he played a 200-foot game, and was fun to watch.
Maybe not top 3 Europeans of all time, but definitely in the top 10
What a wonderful player he was....he played a 200-foot game, and was fun to watch.
Maybe not top 3 Europeans of all time, but definitely in the top 10
Well he was 13th in the recent HOH top 100 exercise, although I can see arguments for him over Firsov and Selanne.
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time
Simply put, if he is in the top 10 its around 10 and he will be bumped out at some point.
Maple Leaf
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Lol Ovechkin is more well-rounded than Jagr ever was especially for the last couple of years
