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Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

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wetcoast said:
I'll reply more later but you don't seem to understand the term titling the ice (which Frosberg, Fedorov and Makarov all did) very well and generational scorer like Gretzky is entirely different than being a generational goal scorer.

Ovechkin has these top 10 point finishes

1,2,2,3,3,4,7,8 that's not only not generational it's not even the best in his generation.

Crosby has 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10

So let's take away the identical finishes here

Crosby still stands with 1,3,3,5,6,10 over a 4,7,8 right?
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Of Ovechkin's 14 years in the league, he's led the league in goals eight times. He's never been outside the top five and he's only been outside the top three on three occassions.

Not only is he a generational scorer, he's probably the best scorer of all-time.
 
Lafleurs Guy said:
Of Ovechkin's 14 years in the league, he's led the league in goals eight times. He's never been outside the top five and he's only been outside the top three on three occassions.

Not only is he a generational scorer, he's probably the best scorer of all-time.
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You really need to say goal scorer as the term scorer is used for points.

And as I have stated up thread he probably is the best goal scorer of all time but definitely not the best scorer.

Heck Crosby bows him away as the best scorer of his generation.
 
LateSleeper said:
So I've posted the link to a word definition and you still can't understand it, which results in you posting opinions of two more people who still don't change the fact about the majority of which a HF poll is a much more authentic sample than two select articles, so I'm sure you know what's coming:

:laugh::thumbu::laugh:
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(mod)

The Top Hockey Goaltenders of All Time

Ranked by thousands of fans, now you should check your link again, see ya. :thumbu::laugh::laugh:
 
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Claude Pepe Lemieux said:
(mod) then check this:

The Top Hockey Goaltenders of All Time

Ranked by thousands of fans, now you should check your link again, see ya. :thumbu::laugh::laugh:
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Hasek comes first, Brodeur second, Roy third. Throw that same poll in Europe, count the results in and you have Hasek with a landslide majority again.

EDIT: In an election, the difference in the number of votes between the winning person or group and the one that comes second.

So yeah, Hasek still received a somewhat narrow majority when compared with Marty, and quite a convincing majority compared against Roy.
 
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LateSleeper said:
Hasek comes first, Brodeur second, Roy third. Throw that same poll in Europe, count the results in and you have Hasek with a landslide majority again.
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:lol: Nope, Roy comes first, Hasek second and Brodeur third, that's it.

Edit: Weird because I saw Roy first when I posted this link. Anyway, it's clearly not the majority as you see.
 
wetcoast said:
You really need to say goal scorer as the term scorer is used for points.

And as I have stated up thread he probably is the best goal scorer of all time but definitely not the best scorer.

Heck Crosby bows him away as the best scorer of his generation.
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You can split whatever hairs you wish.

He's a generational player. He beats the field in terms of 50 goal seasons - that alone has probably never been done at least since 50 goals became an attainable mark. Best goal scorer of all-time.

Again, I get the "tilt the ice" argument. It was used against Gretzky for years when compared to Trottier. But nobody in their right mind would take Trottier over Gretzky. Two way play is much easier to find than elite scoring. And goal scoring is more important than anything. Nobody can score like Ovechkin has. The only player I think would've given him a run for his money would've been Mario Lemieux if he'd stayed healthy. You should also look at OV's relative analytics numbers. He's a monster. If you think he doesn't tilt the ice then I don't know what to tell you.

As for Crosby vs Ovechkin... that's something that will be debated for years to come. Goals are more valuable than assists are so it gives OV a legit argument to make. Crosby was a really good two way player with elite scoring though. It's really close.

I'd never say Forsberg or Fedorov weren't great players. They were. And they did a lot of things to help their teams win. But nobody - nobody - can score like Ovechkin can. You simply can't find that kind of talent anywhere. And that's why it's really not close when comparing him to those players.

The other three you mentioned... sure. But your argument of 'better postseason' resumes doesn't really jive with them either.
 
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Claude Pepe Lemieux said:
:lol: Nope, Roy comes first, Hasek second and Brodeur third, that's it.

Edit: Weird because I saw Roy first when I posted this link. Anyway, it's clearly not the majority as you see.
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Whoever picks up the largest part of votes has the majority in a poll or election. Check the word definition again.

I'm sure you saw what you wanted to see, but for a second, it made you look unbiased. Now, you look just...

*that smiley again*
 
Crease Master said:
No, but he has longevity and may be the best goal scorer though. Not too shabby. It's probably Forsberg or Larionov for straight up best.
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Do you understand Forsberg in his prime was not anywhere near shape or form close to Jarg And they were both in the league. When Jagr came back in the league before a played any additional games he was already top 10 app time in points, goals, and assist. There is no one who knows hockey would ever suggest Forsberg or Larionov be anywhere near Jarg.
 
What is greatest? How do you rate longevity? Is a player who is great for a few seasons greater than someone who is very good for a long long time?

Jagr to me is not in the discussion. It is a personal opinion.

As a sidenote, why does everyone pretend playoffs are not a thing in these discossion? Of course some might not have had a succesful team to make their mark in the post season, but some did.

In the end for me Hasek. Period. Everyone else and Jagr is not in the discussion for next.
 
tarheelhockey said:
He’s not on this level. If you introduce Datsyuk then you have to also consider a bunch of guys who also don’t feel like they belong here — Fedorov, Stastny, Malkin, etc.
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Datsuyk is not even in the level of those next ones who would be included after the handful obvious choices mentioned already many times. And after that chronologically you would be starting from Salming and then Kurri and going towards Jagr by the date they hanged up their skates.
 
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Phil68 said:
Do you understand Forsberg in his prime was not anywhere near shape or form close to Jarg And they were both in the league. When Jagr came back in the league before a played any additional games he was already top 10 app time in points, goals, and assist. There is no one who knows hockey would ever suggest Forsberg or Larionov be anywhere near Jarg.
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Forsberg's injury issues prevented him from having the same level of impact as Jagr and therefore he doesn't belong in the discussion. But I don't think that they were far apart on a per-game basis. Jagr was a little better offensively but not by as much as some people claim, while Forsberg played the more important position and was more engaged and useful in other aspects of the game.
 
Blue and Green said:
Forsberg's injury issues prevented him from having the same level of impact as Jagr and therefore he doesn't belong in the discussion. But I don't think that they were far apart on a per-game basis. Jagr was a little better offensively but not by as much as some people claim, while Forsberg played the more important position and was more engaged and useful in other aspects of the game.
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Forsberg has a Hart and an Art Ross - same season. He's just not in that group. Maybe if he were healthy but... Ditto for Fedorov.
 
Peak

Hasek
Jagr/OV
Lidstrom

Prime/longevity

Jagr/Lidstrom/OV?
Hasek

Playoffs

Lidstrom
OV?/Jagr/Hasek
 
Bertuzzzi44 said:
OV isn’t European, Russia is considered mostly a part of Asia.
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I'd say when speaking of European hockey players, Russia is definitely a part of Europe. Russia is densely populated in the areas west of the Ural mountains and thats where the border between Europe and Asia has been traditionally drawn. Even Ovechkin himself is from Moscow and therefore west of the Ural and from Europe.
 
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vivalavili said:
I'd say when speaking of European hockey players, Russia is definitely a part of Europe. Russia is densely populated in the areas west of the Ural mountains and thats where the border between Europe and Asia has been traditionally drawn. Even Ovechkin himself is from Moscow and therefore west of the Ural and from Europe.
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If we’re including Russian players, it’s pretty much between Jagr & Ovechkin as the greatest European player ever, they’re both ahead of Hasek & Lidstrom imo.
 
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