Is it really Randy Carlyle's fault?

[ForzaItalia]

Carlyle is gone unless they win in the playoffs.

I think he's gone either way. Both the GM and coach are lame duck stop gap measures.

 

[Pyrophorus]

The Leafs need to make changes to their core which has obvious flaws. [B}You can not make those decision until you see the players away from Carlyle.[/B]

This is my point. Let even have an average system first with a normal coach, and lets see how they fare.

 

[hockeystick89]

Only the leaf players are expected to be the complete package. If they score PPG +, they suck in the D zone, and are no good.

If they are great at D and cycle/board work, but don't put up points, they suck (Clarkson, Kadri earlier this year before he picked up).

If they are good at everything, but not great like Holland, they aren't good enough for the roster.

If they have good stats, infact some of the best for their roles (Phaneuf and Franson, one having a 30 point season and a positive player and the other in the top 15 of D scoring) people say you don't watch them, so they suck.

So really, every player will suck when they play for the leafs. Unless they are super human, like a Bernier or Reimer game they steal, they suck, and even then, one bad game and people want to ship them out.


Good teams have guys who play roles. If Phaneuf had a Keith, and Kessel had a Toews, this wouldn't matter.

If Toronto had a Toews who could be their "best" player and play all situations, win key draws etc, and Kessel could get mostly O zone starts and rack up the points, that is healthy. Kessel will never be an all around player, and that is okay.

I do believe it is Carlyle. On the leaf board, there have been lots of posts of team corsi and player corsi going down when Carlyle took over. We had guys with great Corsi suddenly be terrible under Carlyle.

His "system" doesn't work, and he needs to go.

Either way, it makes more sense to change coaches than turn over a core in a rebuild. Look at some teams who change coaches and become great teams. We don't know that this team isn't able to do well in a new system.

That's why Carlyle shouldn't have come back. They should have had a new coach, and if the team still can't find constancy, then it's time to shake it up.

Ok I don't disagree and think your argument is with someone else. My points were that I have only watched Phil take a hit to make a play twice, and that half the team plays like they do not care about each other.

Nice novel though

 

[BHD]

When comes to how they play - yes, it is. His system sets that team up for failure, regardless of who is in the lineup.

 

[Mynameismark*]

What could any coach do with that awful roster?

 

[Mad Brills*]

This is my point. Let even have an average system first with a normal coach, and lets see how they fare.

Big guy with this is dion. Need to see how he fares under a new coach before trading him.

 

[BudMovin*]

What could any coach do with that awful roster?

They have been icing crap for over a decade, yet every year, coach after coach, it's always the coach's fault. Suprised they are doing that well with the dumpster fire of a blue line. The problem is the media has unrealistic expectations year after year and the team seems to crumble down the stretch.

 

[Territory]

What could any coach do with that awful roster?

Awful roster that scores more then any other team in the NHL...

 

[Scrobble]

Awful roster that scores more then any other team in the NHL...

Also is terrible defensively and possession-wise

 

[Pi]

Also is terrible defensively and possession-wise

Anyone who looks at the Leafs roster knows its not awful. It's nothing to brag about but it's at the very least an average roster in all departments.

Randy is just ****ed. The guy has no clue how to work his bench. Dump and chase when you have great skaters who can take the puck with speed into the offensive zone, Clarkson on the 2nd PP when Santorelli is miles better, consistently overplaying top 2 lines and underplaying third and fourth lines.

Every single player that leaves Randy's system gets better possession wise and every single player that the Leafs get becomes worse. Happened with Anaheim, it's happening with us.

Ryan freaking Getzlaf had just 57 points under Randy. That guy is a bonafide #1C.

Ron Wilson was better than Carlyle but he never had good goalies, now we have a good goalie but a coach that can't seem to understand what his players pros and cons are.

I'm not saying the Leafs are world beaters. The Leafs just shouldn't be consistent outplayed and outchanced with the roster they have.

It's not all Randy's fault but the brunt of it is his fault.

 

[Semantics]

What could any coach do with that awful roster?

How about not setting an NHL record for shots allowed? Or do you think that's too much to ask from this roster too?

 

[Mynameismark*]

How about not setting an NHL record for shots allowed? Or do you think that's too much to ask from this roster too?

Have you seen their defense?

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Carlyle hasn't really done anything to improve the team. Seems set in his ways and refuses to change, even when it's obvious nothing is working.

 

[Community]

haven't they made the playoffs 1 time in the last 10 years? They should be excited right now, no?

By the 40 game point we've been in a playoff spot the last 4 or so years... We've learned to not be overly excited at this point.

RC is part of the problem, although I'm not sure whether it's his system or that he can't get the players to play his system.

Leafs do need an upgrade on defense, but they have a few good defenders that get misused by RC a lot (for example, Rielly is our best PMD and smartest defenseman on a team that has a horrible transition game.... why isn't he trusted more on moving the puck from the d-zone to O-zone.) His usage with Gardiner is wither he plays a lot or sits... I'm not sure why he doesn't give Gardiner easier competition when he's struggling (3rd pairing)).

We obviously could use an improvement on defense, but Phaneuf, Rielly, Gardiner, Franson, Polak, Robidas, Percy/Holzer/Finn/Loov are/have the potential to be at least an average defensive core in the right system.

 

[Fear]

Time to bring out the old graph again...

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2014/4/17/5618696/toronto-maple-leafs-wowys-randy-carlyle-edition

 

[BLONG7]

Awful roster that scores more then any other team in the NHL...

They have some good forwards, but it's goaltending and defense that will get you W's.....Randy just can't get this group to play D in their own end...

 

[Kimota]

Nevermind their D, their Top 6 has always been too soft and having a less than good work ethic. I mean do you want to go to war with these guys?

 

[BobRouse]

Time to bring out the old graph again...

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2014/4/17/5618696/toronto-maple-leafs-wowys-randy-carlyle-edition

Ouch. That stings.

I'd get him out of there as soon as possible but not even based on that alone. The late season collapses are unacceptable.

 

[ProjectPanthers]

Hell no. Not Carlyle's fault at all. I work with folks who are extremely close to the team and no one says Randy is to blame.

There is a culture of complacency in that locker room. Barely any players truly care, they don't have each other's backs on the ice and there is a "kliq" mentality within those walls.

If the Leafs want to succeed, firing Carlyle and hiring Bylsma/MacLean/whoever is a lateral move at best. The problem is the players. The likes if Kessel, Kadri and others are to nonchalant about any sort of long-term success. With those players on the team, they will never get far.

Randy coaches hard and tries to implement the system. Does anyone really think he just tells them to go out there and skate around? No. They don't listen to him, but they don't listen to anyone.

Carlyle will lose his job and the new coach will come in and win a few games but then in about 10-15 games they will return to old form and continue to struggle. The players on that team need to change. Anyone not named JVR, Reilly or Bernier should be on the block.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

No

The team isn't very good and makes huge mistakes on a rather consistent basis

The coach can't make the players smarten up

Then you have Shanahan who isn't doing much, it's looking like he may be out of his depth

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Ron Wilson didn't have JVR and had some of the worst golatending ever.

Carlyle has had more than acceptable goaltending but has had abysmal possession numbers from the getgo and those numbers have gotten worse and worse year after year. He had a bad "swarm" scheme and has been unable to change over the past few years. He even said he had no idea what was wrong last year. The Leafs need a new coach, and fast.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Ron Wilson didn't have JVR and had some of the worst golatending ever.

Carlyle has had more than acceptable goaltending but has had abysmal possession numbers from the getgo and those numbers have gotten worse and worse year after year. He had a bad "swarm" scheme and has been unable to change over the past few years. He even said he had no idea what was wrong last year. The Leafs need a new coach, and fast.

If carlyle got wilson's goaltending, he'd be fired a year ago. The link to the players graph with and without carlyle is a damming as thing as there will be. Probably nonis now in terms of his job security -

 

[Garbage Goal]

this is the fifth year in a row randy's team has been a bottom five possession team. twice it was anaheim, thrice toronto.

neither team was bottom five before or after randy.

amazingly, in 11-12, he managed to coach two different teams to bottom five shot differentials, while in that same year both teams had average shot differentials without him.

I don't know how anyone can see this and think Carlyle is a good coach. Hell, the Leafs set a record in shots against last season.

Carlyle isn't the source of all of their problems, but he's a bad coach.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Have you seen their defense?

Just IMO, but from a strictly talent perspective TOR's blueline is significantly better than DAL, COL or CAR (and WIN when the entire top 4 are hurt).


Leafs played 5 games in 7 nights, and in game 4 of that stretch, Carlyle played Kessel 25:48 in a regulation loss. That's a problem IMO.

Like others have said - this isn't entirely on Carlyle, but you know what they say if you're not part of the solution.

 

[leaflover]

Some Leaf fans are ready to scapegoat Carlyle. The same way they did Ron Wilson before him and the same way they did Paul Maurice before him. All seem like ok coaches to me, not completely over their head in the NHL. At some point when do you gotta say it's not the coach but the roster?

Its not all his fault by any means. Management put together a team with precious little heart. There's no leadership from any of the top players, not even the ones adorning letters indicating such. Role models are as rare as rocking horse **** and losing is far far too readily accepted. What does he do with a group like that?
I'm not saying there is a lack of talent, far from it in fact, but its not blending into a team. Its a rare case of the team being less than the sum of its parts and I don't think theres a coach on the planet that can jam these square pegs into a round hole.
Shanahan has to mandate a rebuild. Pick a few players you feel do or can represent the identity the team seeks and get rid of the rest. Yes, the GM will look bad on some of the trades as the players move onto suitable systems and blossom into the players they should be but oh well. They're not likely to evolve in this environment with absolutely no identity whatsoever.

Carlyle might not be the ideal coach for the current roster but its so dysfunctional that I'm not sure even the right coach could get the Leafs far. Just end the suffering and blow er up, because fixing this current team isn't achievable without it.