Is Finland a Top 3 Hockey Nation

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The wholly unscientific way of averaging the final rankings of the countries in the best on best tournaments since 1998 ranks as follows.
1. Canada
2. Finland
3. Sweden
4. USA/Russia
5. Czech Republic
 
He was responding to the ridiculous post by that other guy. Results speak for themselves, I don't know how you can say Finland has "mastered" the art of coaching yet has never won a best on best tournament.

Considering the disparity in talent compared to the other top countries, coaching has a lot to do with why Finland is even considered to be a "top 3" hockey country. At the semi-final stage and later the remaining teams are usually really good teams with plenty of talent and all things being equal talent usually is the thing that makes a difference and Finland is the one left with the short stick.
 
Yes it's clear it's not based on results, since results wise Finland's #3 spot can't be argued.

Well, like somebody wrote it's extremely tight between USA, Sweden, Russia and Finland right now (almost even) with the Czechs not that far behind.

Also like I wrote I don't put any emphasize in USA loosing to Finland in the bronze game (which of course is a bit controversial).

In a championsship with all the best players I would put the USA slightly above the rest but I'm not really 100% sure. On NHL sized ice definately, on international ice, not so sure.

Regarding Russia their time will come I guess but something have to change.
 
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I personally think Finland is lagging to much when it comes to talent to be within top 4. As a team i always liked them for their ability to bring fast paced hockey and cohesives teams that brings what they have and more when it matters. Kudos to the vodkalainens in the land of 1000 lakes! ;)
 
This is Finland pretty much every tournament:

Plays well in the group stages but doesn't finish first.

Gets really motivated in the quarter final and causes an upset against a "stronger" team 50% of the time.

Get to the semi final where the opposition takes Finland really seriously because of the upset in the quarter final. Finland loses.

Finland plays the bronze medal game where the opposition is so disappointed for losing the other semi final that the motivation isn't there even if they want it to be. Finland gets the bronze.

So, is Finland top 3? Yes, maybe. Maybe not. I don't care. All I know that this is how it usually looks for Finland in a tournament.
 
Well, like somebody wrote it's extremely tight between USA, Sweden, Russia and Finland right now (almost even) with the Czechs not that far behind.

If you go by results it's not tight at all. Canada is a clear #1, Sweden is a clear #2 and Finland is a clear #3.

USA and Russia are very close to each other in results/success. Czech would be close if you count as far back as 1998, but if you take only last 10 years then they are pretty clearly a step below those two.

If you have other criteria and more opinion based metrics then yeah you can argue it being close. With opinions, you can even place Finland first or last, even behind countries that don't have a single hockey player registered.
 
So, is Finland top 3? Yes, maybe. Maybe not. I don't care. All I know that this is how it usually looks for Finland in a tournament.

It's the finals where we suck - I think our semifinal record is actually pretty ok. In the group stages we are often very strong. What seems to be a common theme is though that the fans and "experts" alike (being great readers of player statistics) tend to write Finland off from the medal matches before the tournament even begins. And that tends to be a mistake. I'm not sure, btw, how much bragging rights you get for winning one best on best tournament during the last 20 years - or at least, is there a statute of limitations for these?
 
Well, like somebody wrote it's extremely tight between USA, Sweden, Russia and Finland right now (almost even) with the Chechs not that far behind.
This is indeed the best way to answer this question. In a sense, it does make Finland top-3 because as when in there is no way to make a difference in sports, they actually end up splitting the position and treat both recipients as perfectly equal medalists. Of course, there are metrics to try and make that difference, but essentially all of them are subjective which will lead to nothing multi-page tug-of-wars.

I think we can all agree that Finland is somewhere in that 2-5 range and leave it at that. I said in that other thread however, that the question should be whether Finland gets the respect falling into said range merits. I can see why some Finns feel that they don't. Russia's only achievement from best-on-best is a silver from 1998. USA and Sweden have more failures than successes on their belts as well. The Finns are the most consistent performer on these tournaments, yet every time when one rolls around, there are people who treat them as if they're little leagues. Yeah yeah, teams' relative strength on paper and all that, but haven't we all had at least 20 years of time to adapt to the fact that things never go according to the paper rankings? Such myopia could perhaps be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Then there's at least this one guy who seems to think that because Finland does not mail it in after losing the semi, they don't deserve said respect. What-the-effin-ef-in-the-land-of-efs is that train of thought? Of course the Finnish players want gold. They've wanted gold since they grabbed silver back in 1988. However, they also know that Finland is a country that's nuts about hockey, and that there's at least two million people back home tuning in whenever they play - no matter what is on the line. Actually, Finland's performance in the men's bronze game is not even the best example. Look at the women's team. After losing the QF, they had two perfectly inconsequential placement matches left and the history sure as heck wouldn't judge them whether they finished 5th or 7th, but they turned those games into routs because they thought they owe it to the fans. And that is, somehow, an attitude that merits disrespect?

As a matter of fact, I'm starting to think that these people who think "Gold or Bust" are not here to watch some hockey in the first place, but want to tune in for the eventual medal ceremony. After that, they can gather in the circle, pat each other in the back, howl at the moon how they're number one or whatever. Sure, it's a great feeling, but on the road to that point there's plenty of the game to be watched, full of emotion. I'm almost tempted to say that the people described in this paragraph don't care about the game itself one little bit. Having something to boost their puny egos is their only incentive to call themselves fans of it.
 
I'm almost tempted to say that the people described in this paragraph don't care about the game itself one little bit. Having something to boost their puny egos is their only incentive to call themselves fans of it.

Ha, yes... the usual adage is that the Finns are not sports-crazy but sports-success-crazy nation, but this kind of makes one question. Of course, medalling is always considered a success, so.
 
I think its tough to answer this poll.

Canada


Finland, Sweden, Russia, USA
Czech Rep.
Slovakia

So I think Finland rank between 2 and 5. Those teams seem very even and you could make a case for any of them to be ranked second. However I am impressed with Finland and with the recent WJC in mind, they will become even better.
 
Gold, silver and bronze are there to prove who is best, second best an third best. Finland won the bronze (again), so it is third best. For some people that seems so hard to understand. Stop making excuses and accept the facts. We Finns could start *****ing if Sweden would have won Finland if they didn't take their pills, but we aren't. Get over it.
 
Based on results, actual facts, head to head games....Finland is clearly 3rd.

And that is YOUR opinion. ;) I don't share it - Finland is not 3rd in the world in my eyes.

Actually, according to the IIHF - Canada is 3rd :sarcasm:
 
Gets really motivated in the quarter final and causes an upset against a "stronger" team 50% of the time.

Get to the semi final where the opposition takes Finland really seriously because of the upset in the quarter final. Finland loses.


So, is Finland top 3? Yes, maybe. Maybe not. I don't care. All I know that this is how it usually looks for Finland in a tournament.

Maybe if they played to win against the stronger teams, instead of hanging on to dear life with their trap. Then we'd have a better judge of the Finnish team. :)

I still have them 3rd in this tournament (obviously), but 4-5 in the world.
 
Maybe if they played to win against the stronger teams, instead of hanging on to dear life with their trap. Then we'd have a better judge of the Finnish team. :)

I still have them 3rd in this tournament (obviously), but 4-5 in the world.

It's a game where the purpose is to make more goals than you let. Style points are for the ice-dancers. If your strength is not in the mad individual talent, why try playing with it and let the other guy win you on their terms.

It would be awesome to have our players throwing lacrosse goals in the semis and whatnot but Finland's strength just is not there.
 
What do we know about tournaments like this? It is easy to have upsets. Look at the results from Turin.

Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic

Canada went 3-3, while the US went 1-4-1.

Where those results representative of the quality of the teams? Was the Lativan loss to Canada in 2014 representative of how strong the are, or was it just one of those games where you can`t find the net?

We all know what the results of Sochi were. Were they reflective of the actual strengths of the teams? Most certainly not as that would mean no upsets happened.

IMO it is Canada, USA, Sweden, Finland and Russia above the rest. Switzerland is starting to make noise.
 
And that is YOUR opinion. ;) I don't share it - Finland is not 3rd in the world in my eyes.

Actually, according to the IIHF - Canada is 3rd :sarcasm:

No it's not my opinion, it's results I'm referring to. Medals, head to head games...

That's how Finland is the clear 3rd.

My opinion is that results matter in sports more than any other made up metric. And your opinion seems to differ.


And yeah according to the IIHF, Finland is 2nd and has been for 4 years but who cares about IIHF rankings.
 
Yes and no. Right now the finns are 3rd best in the world. But im not sure after Salo and Timonen retires. Also Pitkanen is gettin old. What will happen to the finnish defense when most of their elite Ds retires. Maatta will turn into one of the best Ds in the world, but he is just one player. The Finns need to develop more good Ds.

But again. Right now the finns are 3rd best after Canada and Sweden.
 
No it's not my opinion, it's results I'm referring to. Medals, head to head games...

That's how Finland is the clear 3rd.

My opinion is that results matter in sports more than any other made up metric. And your opinion seems to differ.


And yeah according to the IIHF, Finland is 2nd and has been for 4 years but who cares about IIHF rankings.

In my opinion Finland is 4/5.

Have a great afternoon.
 

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