Is Finland a Top 3 Hockey Nation

[Kharkov]

I don't know how anyone could expect USA to actually try in the bronze medal game after losing a heartbreaker to Canada. The USA lost by a damn goal to Canada. They got crushed by Finland.

Finland lost by a goal to Sweden. But did you watch the game? Better to take home medal than nothing. To my eye it looked like they tried before it got 2-0. Btw, if you want to compare different matches, look USA - Russia (preliminary round) and Finland - Russia (quarterfinal). But I guess Russia didnt try to win QF

 

[psycho_dad*]

I think the argument that "Finland won bronze, so they're the third best country" is totally invalid.

Nobody has made that claim. Finland is 3rd best because they completely dominate USA in medal count and have more wins in head to head games in the last 10-20 years.

I don't know how anyone could expect USA to actually try in the bronze medal game after losing a heartbreaker to Canada. The USA lost by a damn goal to Canada. They got crushed by Finland.

If I was American I'd expect them to fight for the best possible finish. Finland lost a heartbreaker to their rivals, Sweden, by a damn goal. There is no excuse for USA to lose the bronze game, they just simply lost to a better team. Yeah, they mentally folded at 3-0 but they tried until then. And being mentally weak is not a ticket to voiding games. If they would have checked out before the game mentally, that's even worse than losing when you are trying your best. If USA players are mentally that weak, then that is a definite huge advantage when determining which is the better team. Mental strength and never giving up is an extremely important attribute for a hockey player/team.

However, Canada is, without any argument, better than Finland. So how does that happen?

Canada is better than anyone. They have 10 times the registered player than Finland for example, I don't find their dominance the least bit surprising.

USA obviously didn't play their hearts out. There's no way you can say, for sure, which of two are better unless it wasn't for a runner-up trophy.

My opinion, USA is 3rd. But for all intensive purposes, they're basically tied.

Excuses excuses. It doesn't matter if they lost because they were mentally weaker or just plain worse in hockey, they lost. There is a definite way to say for sure, look at the end result. Finland won 5-0 that day.

USA has absolutely no claim over Finland for 3rd place. Finland has over double the medals in best on best olympics, has more wins in head to head games, was a runner up in last world cup while USA got dropped out of semis. If all the games are counted from the best on best olympics, Finland has like 61 points compared to USA's 47...

There are no statistics that would bring USA even close. Of course you can emotionally place them at #1 if you wish. Just has no bearing in reality, facts.

 

[DarkReign]

This year? Yes. Any country that produces goaltenders like Finland does is a power, couple that with a strong defensive system/commitment and you have a Top3 country in the world.

 

[Arne]

This thread is going nowhere. 3rd, 4th, 15th.... say what you want. It's not going to change a thing.

*edit, my opinion is that we're 3rd/4th, depending on how you look at it. I'm cool with both and I don't think either of them are wrong.

 

[ericWONT]

Nobody has made that claim. Finland is 3rd best because they completely dominate USA in medal count and have more wins in head to head games in the last 10-20 years.



If I was American I'd expect them to fight for the best possible finish. Finland lost a heartbreaker to their rivals, Sweden, by a damn goal. There is no excuse for USA to lose the bronze game, they just simply lost to a better team. Yeah, they mentally folded at 3-0 but they tried until then. And being mentally weak is not a ticket to voiding games. If they would have checked out before the game mentally, that's even worse than losing when you are trying your best. If USA players are mentally that weak, then that is a definite huge advantage when determining which is the better team. Mental strength and never giving up is an extremely important attribute for a hockey player/team.



Canada is better than anyone. They have 10 times the registered player than Finland for example, I don't find their dominance the least bit surprising.



Excuses excuses. It doesn't matter if they lost because they were mentally weaker or just plain worse in hockey, they lost. There is a definite way to say for sure, look at the end result. Finland won 5-0 that day.

USA has absolutely no claim over Finland for 3rd place. Finland has over double the medals in best on best olympics, has more wins in head to head games, was a runner up in last world cup while USA got dropped out of semis. If all the games are counted from the best on best olympics, Finland has like 61 points compared to USA's 47...

There are no statistics that would bring USA even close. Of course you can emotionally place them at #1 if you wish. Just has no bearing in reality, facts.

Although you bring forward valid points, I still stand by my opinion.

You're one of the many people commenting with a Finland flag under your name, so there's an obvious bias for the both of us.

Although we didn't win on the ice, we had a better roster and in some respects a better team.

But hey, this argument will continue to go around in circles. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[AvalancheFan19]

1. Canada
2. Sweden
3. USA
4. Finland/Russia

 

[psycho_dad*]

I still stand by my opinion.

I did not expect statistics to change it, it's an opinion after all.

You're one of the many people commenting with a Finland flag under your name, so there's an obvious bias for the both of us.

Had U.S medaled in these olympics and placed ahead of Finland and won a head to head game, I think I would be saying they are #3. Finland solidified their 3rd spot with this medal and clear win against the #4 team. If I was biased I'd argue that Finland's higher medal count puts them ahead of Sweden, but I don't because it would be intellectually false.

Although we didn't win on the ice, we had a better roster and in some respects a better team.

Better team wins the game, so you definitely did not have a better team. Better roster is completely subjective, if you count in NHL points then absolutely you did. But that doesn't make a team, or even make a player better.

 

[FiLe]

Although we didn't win on the ice, we had a better roster and in some respects a better team.

Better roster as in better individuals in it, yes. But they obviously did not make up a team better than Finland. And not solely by looking at the bronze game matchup, but the tournament as a whole.

Finland had the best GD and highest scoring efficiency in the whole tournament. Not bad for a team that, according to North Americans, did nothing but trap, trap, trap.
Both Finland and USA met Russia and Canada. USA won Russia in SO, Finland won Russia by two goals in regulation. USA lost to Canada in regulation, Finland lost in overtime.
And yeah, Finland won the individual matchup 5-nothing.

Better team in this tournament? You just keep telling yourself that now.

 

[jekoh]

Better team wins the game, so you definitely did not have a better team.

Even disregarding that particular game, what exactly is the USA's claim to a better team than Finland?

The USA beat Russia? So too did Finland, and Finland did not need a shootout.
Finland lost to Canada? So too did the USA, and at least Finland took them to overtime.

Not to mention that Finland was without its top 4 centers.

 

[Nuusku]

Finland doesn't produce so many NHL level superstars, but so what? If we constantly finish top 3 in best on best tournaments, what else are we than a top 3 country? This still is a team sport, isn't it? If USA or Russia can't get their superstars to play well together, maybe they should try a different approach when it comes to roster selections or coaching. They would propably beat Finland in somekind of a skill competition, but what does individual skill matter, if they they are unable to use it for their advantage in the tournaments that matter?

 

[Cawz]

Nobody has made that claim. Finland is 3rd best because they completely dominate USA in medal count and have more wins in head to head games in the last 10-20 years.

There are no statistics that would bring USA even close.

Didnt you say earlier that if you use 20 years, the USA is close? One might say they are arguably ahead because they actaully won a tournament in that timeframe.

 

[hitmen19]

ive changed my opinion, I am convinced that finland is third best now. I still think I would pick to play finland over the usa if I had to choose because I think usa plays us with more passion and is a bigger rivalary, finland in head to head against usa and Russia has demonstrated to be better in results. so they are third

 

[Cawz]

Even disregarding that particular game, what exactly is the USA's claim to a better team than Finland?

The USA beat Russia? So too did Finland, and Finland did not need a shootout.
Finland lost to Canada? So too did the USA, and at least Finland took them to overtime.

Not to mention that Finland was without its top 4 centers.

USA looked like a much better team when Canada played both in this tournament.

 

[LynxBud]

Finland won the bronze medal, which represents third place in a best on best tournament. As of right now, they are indeed a top 3 hockey nation.

I also believe Canada, Sweden, and Finland to be the top 3 hockey nations in terms of our passion for the game.

 

[psycho_dad*]

USA looked like a much better team when Canada played both in this tournament.

USA did nothing against Canada, they were kept very much to the outside. At no point did I think they had any chance of coming back.

Finland did pretty much the same, but actually scored a goal and had a few decent chances to win it in 3rd and OT, but Canada definitely deserved to win that game as well.

In no way did USA look like a better team....maybe they took more shots from the outside but they did not threaten Canada. And of course....you know....they also played against Finland so we don't necessarily need to compare games against other teams on other days. Finland killed U.S in the last game. Head to head games are a much much better way of determining how teams stand against eachother, than comparing games against a common opponent.

 

[Lempo]

This ain't taking us anywhere. I guess we should dress up the teams and put them on ice to sort it out by themselves or sumtin.

 

[Cawz]

USA did nothing against Canada, they were kept very much to the outside. At no point did I think they had any chance of coming back.

Finland did pretty much the same, but actually scored a goal and had a few decent chances to win it in 3rd and OT, but Canada definitely deserved to win that game as well.

In no way did USA look like a better team....maybe they took more shots from the outside but they did not threaten Canada. And of course....you know....they also played against Finland so we don't necessarily need to compare games against other teams on other days. Finland killed U.S in the last game. Head to head games are a much much better way of determining how teams stand against eachother, than comparing games against a common opponent.

Well first off, youre biased, so you cant look at both games objectively. If you actually look at the stats (since you are a stickler for stats), US did threaten Canada more, so it wasnt just shots from the outside. The US just unfortunately drew their match against Canada when Canada got into beast mode. Yeah, they folded like a cheap tent in the loser final, but nobody on this side of the pond cares about that game anyways.

 

[hudson bay rules]

Too much read into a one game knock out tournament by some here. Look at Toronto last year. They took Boston to 7 games and almost beat them. No one in their right mind would put Toronto ahead of Boston even if they had won.

 

[Porvari]

If Finland is #3, why did everyone freak out on Canada when they took us to OT? 1 vs 3 should be a HUGE match up, yet, it seemed as though other countries thought it should've been a cakewalk for us.

Good question.

 

[FiLe]

Too much read into a one game knock out tournament by some here. Look at Toronto last year. They took Boston to 7 games and almost beat them. No one in their right mind would put Toronto ahead of Boston even if they had won.

There are two debates going on here. One regarding which was the better team in these olympics, Finland or USA (and when you look at the stats and results, Finland wins hands down) and which is more prominent as a hockey country.

For the latter, deciding the order is a bit tougher, but a good starting point could be the actual results from the past two decades or so...

 

[psycho_dad*]

Yeah, they folded like a cheap tent in the loser final, but nobody on this side of the pond cares about that game anyways.

That's why you didn't watch it, but you speak of it like you knew what happened. They tried, but they failed. Yeah, they folded at 3-0, that's acceptable in some way.

And by the way, I am on "this side of the pond", watched both Canada vs. USA and Canada vs. Finland with my Canadian friends and they very much shared my view that USA did nothing to threaten Canada while Finland at least scored and had a few chances on top of that.

And the "nobody cares about bronze medal game" argument is for absolute losers, who support a loser mentality where lack of pride representing your country and making excuses about not caring after the game is somehow acceptable. It is nothing but a sign of mental weakness and lack of pride, and nobody should see that as a positive thing. And even less they should try to void a legitimate ass kicking because "they just wanted to let their ***** get kicked".

It would be an absolutely Pejorative Slured attitude for USA anyway, since they have won no tournaments for a loooooong time, not even in the 2nd tier tournament. It's like people rate them way higher than they should be, because they talk tough before each games....I guess that matters more than actual results, at least to some people who are impressed by tough talk and no results. But hey....they don't care, so that makes them a top 3 hockey team over a country where every player cares when they put that jersey on, and have more than double the medals to show for since 1998, and have won more head to head games as well.

 

[FiLe]

If Finland is #3, why did everyone freak out on Canada when they took us to OT? 1 vs 3 should be a HUGE match up, yet, it seemed as though other countries thought it should've been a cakewalk for us.

Well, it should be nothing new that people often put a ton of emphasis on what the teams look on paper - and forget in the process that when all is said and done, only thing that matters are the on-ice results.

I say again that this whole question if Finland is #3 most prominent hockey power is a bit arbitrary. The common perspection is that Canada is the team to beat, and Sweden, USA and Russia are the main challengers. Exact ranks aside, the question should be if Finland should be counted among those "elite of the elite" as well.

And when one puts paper aside and looks at the results, there is only one reasonable answer: Yes, they should.

 

[bobholly39]

The easy answer is no, absolutely not.

Findland is not top 3.

I would put:

Canada, US, Sweden and even Russia above them. This would place them about 5th.

There is an extremely big BUT to my argument though, so here goes.

Finland is not top 3, BUUUUT: in terms of heart, effort and pride? Absolutely. They play their hearts out at every tournament, whereas a lot of other countries who are supposed to be better, choke (US/Russia in Sochi, Russia in 2010, Canada in 2006, etc). Finland's biggest strentgh is their consistency.

But let's be honnest, if an Olympic Tournament version 2.0 started tomorrow morning, I don't think Finland should be ranked above 5th.

 

[Lempo]

If Finland is #3, why did everyone freak out on Canada when they took us to OT? 1 vs 3 should be a HUGE match up, yet, it seemed as though other countries thought it should've been a cakewalk for us.

While the other countries were voting about it, in Finland the game was seen as an underdog game but still a totally winnable one. Get a couple of goals ahead and watch the Canadians get off their game and start gooning and taking penalties. Didn't go quite as planned but still a close one.

 

[93LEAFS]

They are constant over achievers and play a solid game, but they simply don't produce enough NHL level stars to be in consideration for top 3. The only position they have constantly produced top players at over the last couple years is goaltending (arguably the best in the world).