Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Voight]

Needs a Stanley Cup which he isn't winning until he fixes his character issues.

Lets just say has character issues, that doesn't have any bearing on whether hell win a cup or not.

 

[norrisnick]

Yeah, I guess you missed how both Kane and Crosby’s 2014 and 2016 seasons are ranked historically as dominant Art Ross wins during a time when league scoring was at a premium.

Since when? This past week is the first time I've seen anyone describe those seasons as anything other than just another season. The season in between was talked about for being historically ass, but nothing about the bookends being amazing.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Since when? This past week is the first time I've seen anyone describe those seasons as anything other than just another season. The season in between was talked about for being historically ass, but nothing about the bookends being amazing.

For real? Crosby's 2014 Art Ross finally vindicated the 'pace' arguments that had been thrown around in media and fans from 2011-2013. He got his universal praise as the de facto greatest hockey player alive. Much was made about his dominant finish.

Kane's too. Were you not watching hockey during that time period? It is universally praised as the greatest season ever by an American and what caused many to crown him as the best American hockey player to ever lace them up.

Kane's season one for the ages

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yeah, I guess you missed how both Kane and Crosby’s 2014 and 2016 seasons are ranked historically as dominant Art Ross wins during a time when league scoring was at a premium.

Said no-one ever.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Said no-one ever.

Crosby received 128 of the 137 first-place votes that year for Hart. It was dominant.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Crosby received 128 of the 137 first-place votes that year for Hart. It was dominant.

McDavid 195 out of 196 first place votes.
The one voter had him 5th was a Pittsburgh writer lol.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

1. Let me take a page out of your book. You obviously didn’t watch Ovechkin play, otherwise you would know about the stark difference I’m talking about. I’m talking about the wrecking ball, offensive playmaker who was the best in the world until he was neutered by suspensions and the aftermath of the 2010 Olympics. We never saw this version of him again, and again, he was only 24 when he lost his powers.

Best player in the world in 2012-2013 and 2014-2015? Haven’t you and your brood just spent the last 57 pages arguing that those years belonged to Crosby? Talk about a raging hypocrite.

2. Great, he won a bunch of Rockets and he’s on track to set the goals record. They’re huge parts of his legacy. My eyes don’t go dewy eyed for what I still remember as a gimmick trophy and a one dimensional effort for the final 6 of them, especially when I’m arguing along the way about the topic player in question. You can’t pick and choose who you want to be labeled as the best, based on whatever case you think you’re trying to make.

3. Significantly out of my way? I quoted that poster and in their very next post, they pretended they didn’t say it, even though it’s a quote. But by all means, like and agree more with their comments to your heart's content.

He wasn't neutered by suspensions out the Olympics, he just had some worse luck then and no longer got ice time with Semin so it would be difficult to keep up the same pace. He started losing some explosiveness the next year and inexplicably his puckhandling started to decline as well.

 

[Mrb1p]

If you think McDavid is a tier above Crosby.

Are Mackinnon and Kucherov also a tier above Crosby?

 

[norrisnick]

For real? Crosby's 2014 Art Ross finally vindicated the 'pace' arguments that had been thrown around in media and fans from 2011-2013. He got his universal praise as the de facto greatest hockey player alive. Much was made about his dominant finish.

Kane's too. Were you not watching hockey during that time period? It is universally praised as the greatest season ever by an American and what caused many to crown him as the best American hockey player to ever lace them up.

Kane's season one for the ages

There is a massive math fail in that article. It looks like they used the H-R adjusted formula to see what Kane's 49 games would look like. It spit out 137 points. Fine. However, they seemingly don't realize that it already adjusts to 82 games and then tried to fudge the 33 missing games on top of that. So when they saw 229 points they freaked out and wrote that puff piece.

In the end, even adjusted, Kane's season sits at 119. Good, but not historic by any stretch of the imagination. Ditto Crosby's adjusted 116 in '14...

 

[I am Bettman]

This thread has made it clear that simply comparing career achievements and paces is not changing anybody’s mind. I think the discussion should instead be comparing the actual players individually. Put this year’s Mcdavid on any of Pittsburgh’s cup teams and he would outperform Crosby. Put prime Crosby on this year’s version of the Oilers and they maybe make it past the first round.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

So Jagr is better than Crosby?

I mean, he would have an argument

 

[nowhereman]

This thread has made it clear that simply comparing career achievements and paces is not changing anybody’s mind. I think the discussion should instead be comparing the actual players individually. Put this year’s Mcdavid on any of Pittsburgh’s cup teams and he would outperform Crosby. Put prime Crosby on this year’s version of the Oilers and they maybe make it past the first round.

This thread has made it clear to me that I can still be surprised by the absurdity of some people's s*** takes.

 

[bobbyking]

Funny how shrinking goalie equipment makes the whole league go up in scoring.

I get that as well as league scoring going up/injuries. but let's not act like crosby has any season even close to mcdavids 2 best. mcdavid winning the smythe on a losing team speaks for itself, better po then any of crosbys.

 

[I am Bettman]

This thread has made it clear to me that I can still be surprised by the absurdity of some people's s*** takes.

Here are some stats from a post I made just before the finals:
Oilers defensman expected goal differential (playoffs):
Ceci: -9.1
Desharnais: -5.1
Kulak: -3.5
Nurse: -3.4
Broberg: -.8
Ekholm: 2.7
Bouchard: 25.4!
Edmonton is a plus 15 goal differential, so for most of their defenseman to be negative is impressive.
In terms of forwards:
Hyman: 22.2
Mcdavid:22.1
Draisaitl: 19.8
Nuge: 8.8
Perry: 3.4
Kane: 1

They have no other forwards that are positive in this stat. In fact, their bottom 8 forwards all have sub 50% expected goals percentage.

Oilers bottom six points in playoffs:
Brown: 4 points 12 gp
Janmark: 4 in 18 gp
Henrique: 4 in 10
Foegle: 3 in 15
Perry: 1 in 13
Ryan: 1 in 14
McLeod: 1 in 17
Carrick: 1 in 9
Holloway has been playing with Drai and he only has 4 pts in 18 games!
That’s a combined 23 pts in 126 games!!!
That’s a 15 point pace over 82 gp.
8 of Edmonton’s forwards combined production is equal to one 4th liner’s production.


Prime Crosby does not take that team to the finals.

 

[norrisnick]

If you think McDavid is a tier above Crosby.

Are Mackinnon and Kucherov also a tier above Crosby?

Sure, why not?

 

[Gurglesons]

Sure, why not?

Because that's bizarre lol.

 

[norrisnick]

Because that's bizarre lol.

Is it more or less bizarre than the argument that McDavid, MacKinnon, and Kucherov are all in the same tier?

 

[DitchMarner]

If you think McDavid is a tier above Crosby.

Are Mackinnon and Kucherov also a tier above Crosby?

That implies Kucherov and MacKinnon are equal to McDavid. They're not.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Because that's bizarre lol.

It’s a debatable argument. I feel people would be on both sides of the debate, why wouldn’t they be?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah, I guess you missed how both Kane and Crosby’s 2014 and 2016 seasons are ranked historically as dominant Art Ross wins during a time when league scoring was at a premium.

Maybe that has something to do with the weak competition or something…

2021 was a shortened season. Not sure why McDavid gets this credit of 'putting it all together' in a shortened season of 56 games in a Canada only conference that had some really weak teams in it, but we can't seem to give Crosby credit for 2013. Not sure if he even looks that dominant under normal circumstances.

2023 was a dominant finish by McDavid. Outside of that, he really doesn't have these Art Ross finishes where he is lapping the competition. Its literally one award sweep. It also coincided with a year that Matthews wasn't scoring at his usual 60+ goal pace due to knee and hand injuries.

2014 Crosby doesn't get enough credit. He finished 20% higher than 2nd in scoring, only 100 point season, almost had an award sweep but he had a healthy OV that year to compete with for goals. He certainly 'put it all together' and showed that his 2011-2013 stretch of 159 points in 99 games for a 1.61ppg pace wasn't just 'projection' and that was with him noticeably avoiding the dirty areas around the net for fear of facing a blindside hit to the head.

Yes he did, in 2021. It just wasn’t as “dominant” for your liking.

Almost had an award sweep? How so? Ovechkin had 15 more goals than Crosby. Also Crosby was healthy that year(played 80 games.)

Well no, he didn’t follow up those 99 games through 3 seasons with some juggernaut season. In fact all those numbers are projections. There is no way of knowing if he could or couldn’t sustain that level of play.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Then I would give him his props. He would actually start bridging what is a pretty real gap between the likes of himself and Howe.

McDavid didn't lead the league last year in points per game. If he played the missing games, he still loses out on an Art Ross in his prime, healthy years. Last year he didn't dominate. There is no world where you can twist last year's performance and make it appear like a dominant finish by someone who is in Howe/Gretzky/Mario/Orr territory. They simply wouldn't lose out in their prime.

Crosby did it in 2014. He did it once. 20% over the 2nd place guy. Looked like a pretty dominant Art Ross win where he coasted to the finish and still lapped the competition.

Except he was dealing with injuries for a good chunk of the first part of the season, but once he hit the ground running, I think(could be wrong) he was scoring at a 160(or so) point pace for the most part the rest of the year. Would it be different if he wasn’t injured early on? Maybe. He did eventually lead the league in scoring for a brief moment after being like 20 points back from the leader.

 

[Mrb1p]

That implies Kucherov and MacKinnon are equal to McDavid. They're not.

No it does not imply that. It implies that statistical evidence isn't enough to say a player is better than another throughout eras.

Otherwise we'd also say Matthews is a better goalscorer than Ovi.

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s a debatable argument. I feel people would be on both sides of the debate, why wouldn’t they be?

I'm not sure what the debatable argument is to say Kucherov and MacKinnon are comparable to Crosby.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I'm not sure what the debatable argument is to say Kucherov and MacKinnon are comparable to Crosby.

Ahh ok , I thought we were talking about Jagr/Crosby

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Here are some stats from a post I made just before the finals:
Oilers defensman expected goal differential (playoffs):
Ceci: -9.1
Desharnais: -5.1
Kulak: -3.5
Nurse: -3.4
Broberg: -.8
Ekholm: 2.7
Bouchard: 25.4!
Edmonton is a plus 15 goal differential, so for most of their defenseman to be negative is impressive.
In terms of forwards:
Hyman: 22.2
Mcdavid:22.1
Draisaitl: 19.8
Nuge: 8.8
Perry: 3.4
Kane: 1

They have no other forwards that are positive in this stat. In fact, their bottom 8 forwards all have sub 50% expected goals percentage.

Oilers bottom six points in playoffs:
Brown: 4 points 12 gp
Janmark: 4 in 18 gp
Henrique: 4 in 10
Foegle: 3 in 15
Perry: 1 in 13
Ryan: 1 in 14
McLeod: 1 in 17
Carrick: 1 in 9
Holloway has been playing with Drai and he only has 4 pts in 18 games!
That’s a combined 23 pts in 126 games!!!
That’s a 15 point pace over 82 gp.
8 of Edmonton’s forwards combined production is equal to one 4th liner’s production.


Prime Crosby does not take that team to the finals.

The Oilers scored 21 goals in 25 games without McDavid or Draisaitl on the ice. The 2009 Penguins scored 20 goals in 24 games without Crosby or Malkin on the ice. And subtracting PP and EN goals since those are more dependent on opportunity (the Oilers stars play the whole PP), Edmonton's depth outscored Pittsburgh 17 to 14.

And this is despite the Penguins not loading up their top 6, their 3rd best forward played on the 3rd line. The Oilers 3rd and 4th best forwards played with McDavid. The Oilers best two Dmen also played almost exclusively with McDavid's line. And the Oilers' 3rd and 4th line got much less ice time because the top 2 lines were on the ice so often. And they still outscored the Penguins' depth.

So I agree, you put Crosby on that team, and they don't just make the finals, they win.