Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

I have no issue if you want to consider surrounding seasons when assessing Mcdavid's '21 or '22 season.

Well I just simply can't follow your ridiculous leaps of logic, like taking into account a player breaking out 2 seasons later as a factor for anything. Bedard going nuclear in 2 season won't have any impact in how I assess this current seasons Art Ross race.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Well I just simply can't follow your ridiculous leaps of logic, like taking into account a player breaking out 2 seasons later as a factor for anything. Bedard going nuclear in 2 season won't have any impact in how I assess this current seasons Art Ross race.

If you think considering what other players accomplished within the same scoring environment is a "ridiculous leap in logic" then we can agree to disagree.

 

[hamzarocks]

Of course they could. Similar points in their careers but Ovie blows Sid's doors off in goal scoring with ~ 45% more career goals or whatever it is (850 to 590). In terms of total career value it's not even all that close unless you think secondary assists are just as good as goals - which is kind of ridiculous.

Ovie was also the better player at their peaks which is why Ovie has 3 seasons that are all better than Crosby's best season (and 3 Harts to Sid's 2).

If you had told Crosby fans in 2005 it was going to shake out that way they would have been deeply offended.

OVs a poor mans matthews just like Crosby is a poor mans Mcdavid

Both got exposed once higher talent came in and showed neither were generational players

Matthews is doing everything OV did as a player at Center down to the playoffs choking that OV had through the first 10+ years of his career

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

They're both mere mortals compared to Mitchell Marner

 

[Soundwave]

Sv% by games:

GAME 1 - Varly - .944, Fleury .885

GAME 2 - Varly - .917, Fleury .879

GAME 3- Varly - .929, Fleury .913

GAME 4 - Varly - .821, Fleury .864

GAME 5 - Varly - 905, Fleury .905

GAME 6 - Varly - .905, Fleury .792


This series only made it to a Game 7 due to Fleury being significantly outplayed by Varlamov

Boo hoo, Crosby had to win one whopping series in his Cup runs where the goaltending wasn't good and in that series the other goalie was .898 for the series (last time I checked a game 7 still counts).

I don't think Pittsburgh has 3 Cups with Stuart Skinner or a 40 year old Mike Smith in place of Marc Andre Fleury who will be in the Hall of Fame and took Vegas to a Cup Final as well.

Will you also isolate in the same playoff run that MAF was good in the 3/4 rounds in 2009?

 

[Midnight Judges]

OVs a poor mans matthews

Ha!

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. I didn't bother with the rest of your post.

 

[hamzarocks]

Ha!

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. I didn't bother with the rest of your post.

Matthews has the better peak + prime goal scoring stretch

Neither of these guys were art ross candidates though OV was better there for 3 years before he fell off

Matthews will be the GOAT goal scorer when he retires.

Higher scoring era + better goal scoring peak + Not as team mate reliant on goal scoring

OVs legacy will be erased by Matthews in 10 years time

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

If you think considering what other players accomplished within the same scoring environment is a "ridiculous leap in logic" then we can agree to disagree.

Reframing the conversation to protect your ego wasn't necessary here.

Ha!

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. I didn't bother with the rest of your post.

lol

 

[Voight]

Post-2010 he certainly did.

 

[Regal]

Matthews has the better peak + prime goal scoring stretch

Neither of these guys were art ross candidates though OV was better there for 3 years before he fell off

Matthews will be the GOAT goal scorer when he retires.

Higher scoring era + better goal scoring peak + Not as team mate reliant on goal scoring

OVs legacy will be erased by Matthews in 10 years time

Ovechkin won an Art Ross and led the league in points per game three years straight.

 

[hamzarocks]

Ovechkin won an Art Ross and led the league in points per game three years straight.

OV was for 3 years of his career sure

However OV 2011+ wasnt that player

2013 and 2015 were his next best years for the ross and he was super far behind in 2013 ppg wise with 2015 his lack of play making costing hom ross/hart/lindsay

2011/2012/2014/2016/2017/2018/2019 all those years he didnt compete for the ross depsite a fair bit of that still being in his prime

Matthews is still worse than 3 year peak OV at pt production however he also plays in a league with Mcdavid + Mack + Kuch + Drai who OV or Crosby didnt have to go up against, allowing for higher ppg/ross finishes during time of medicore stars players

 

[Midnight Judges]

Neither of these guys were art ross candidates

Ovie won an Art Ross and led the NHL in PPG for 3 straight seasons. It seems reality is not your thing.

Understand your motives though.

Reframing the conversation to protect your ego wasn't necessary here.

Our whole discussion started with me saying this:

It was just a weak season for the top scorers - most of whom were injured.

I haven't moved my position on this. Not even an inch.

 

[hamzarocks]

Ovie won an Art Ross and led the NHL in PPG for 3 straight seasons. It seems reality is not your thing.

Understand your motives though.

He didnt compete against Mcdavid, kuch, mack, drai

All 4 of thoae guys are considerably better and more consistent offensive players than OV ever was

And if your talking about ppg leads Crosby had his fair share of those as well * 2 wins + 2013 and 2015 leads if you exclude 2011 and 2012 due to low games

Crosby & OV would see their individual dominance be considerably lower if they played agaibst the current big 5 forwards as opposed to Malkin/Kane/Stamkos/Tavares

The 2006 -2018 era was just straight poor hockey. Made us think 50 goals and 75-80 pts was a generational talent, or 35 goals and 90-100 pts was generational

The current era of hockey is much better and shows the real offensively abilities of the best in the world being level higher than previous generation

 

[I am Bettman]

Crosby is the better overall player. It’s just that simple.

Better despite not possessing any skills better than Mcdavid besides maybe puck protection? I’m tired of the narrative that Crosby is great at defense and Mcdavid sucks when the reality is that Mcdavid is just as good if not better defensively. Crosby has only ever won two art rosses against weaker competition than Mcdavid faced. The scoring environment was not even close to low enough to justify the gap in production between Mcdavid and Crosby, and even if you assume Crosby’s pace would continue in his injured seasons, he still doesn’t match Mcdavid. This is just talking about the regular season also. Mcdavid dragged a fringe playoff team at best to a game 7 cup final despite the worst playoff goaltending we’ve seen in years and the worst cup final D-core we’ve ever seen.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Our whole discussion started with me saying this:

It was just a weak season for the top scorers - most of whom were injured.

I haven't moved my position on this. Not even an inch.

How does someone becoming a top player two seasons in the future have any relevance to this point?

 

[Voight]

MAF was poor in 2009, the Penguins still won. The 2009 Penguins had a bottom-3 group of wingers in the league, they still won. The 2009 Penguins had 4 defensemen who had no offensive ability whatsoever, they still won and Crosby/Malkin made massive impacts offensively. McDavid gets so many excuses yet he can't win at any level.

There is a lot of revisionist history just because the Penguins did win 3 cups, for the first decade+ of his career a common theme was why isn't Crosby/Malkin given any help?

You sure about that?

 

[Midnight Judges]

He didnt compete against Mcdavid, kuch, mack, drai

All 4 of thoae guys are considerably better and more consistent offensive players than OV ever was

And if your talking about ppg leads Crosby had his fair share of those as well * 2 wins + 2013 and 2015 leads if you exclude 2011 and 2012 due to low games

Crosby & OV would see their individual dominance be considerably lower if they played agaibst the current big 5 forwards as opposed to Malkin/Kane/Stamkos/Tavares

The 2006 -2018 era was just straight poor hockey. Made us think 50 goals and 75-80 pts was a generational talent, or 35 goals and 90-100 pts was generational

The current era of hockey is much better and shows the real offensively abilities of the best in the world being level higher than previous generation

You're not the first guy to confuse scoring environment with talent and you won't be the last.

How does someone becoming a top player two seasons in the future have any relevance to this point?

It shows what is possible (assuming the scoring environment remains similar).

 

[Foppberg]

Lol.

 

[Killswitch]

OVs a poor mans matthews just like Crosby is a poor mans Mcdavid

Both got exposed once higher talent came in and showed neither were generational players

Matthews is doing everything OV did as a player at Center down to the playoffs choking that OV had through the first 10+ years of his career

You do understand OV eats Mathews lunch right? Mathews is exciting to watch when he scores, but OV was a bull who'd chase Mathews off the ice. Bad take

 

[hamzarocks]

You're not the first guy to confuse scoring environment with talent and you won't be the last.



Don't worry about it.

Here's a gorilla spinning around in a pool of water:

2011 - OV 7th in total pts, 9th in ppg
2012 - OV 37th in total pts, 38th in ppg
2013 - OV 3rd in total pts, 5th in ppg
2014 - OV 8th in total pts, 11 in ppg
2015 - OV 4th in total pts, 8th in ppg
2016 - OV 15th in total pts, 20th in ppg

His age 25 - 30 seasons showed he was no generational player. He was basically a non factor for the ross every year besides 2013 (highest 5th in ppg)

Look at Kucherov's 25 to 30, Drai 25 to 30 and Macks 25 to 30

All three are are signifcantly ahead and more valuable players than OV from 25 to 30

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Don't worry about it.

Here's a gorilla spinning around in a pool of water:

Poor Kucherov not only had to compete with prime McDavid and Mackinnon for this year's Art Ross, but according to Midnight Judges, some people will take into account Bedard's season 2 years later and use it against Kucherov if Bedard has a higher point total, making Kucherov's Art Ross win look weak.

Thanks for the educational lesson. I am going to go talk to rational people now.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

I feel we can never truly know because Crosby missed so much of his prime. I don't think it's unreasonable to think if Crosby was 24-27 right now he'd be putting up well over 100+ points.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This thread has jumped the shark with some of these comments. In the span of 19 pages it's now become Crosby isn't even a generational player and somehow Fleury's a big reason the Pens won 3 Cups despite him not even being the starter in 2 of those runs.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I feel we can never truly know because Crosby missed so much of his prime. I don't think it's unreasonable to think if Crosby was 24-27 right now he'd be putting up well over 100+ points.

Somehow you can get into certain parts of these boards where logic bends a bit. Where the consensus will be that:

Crosby > MacKinnon
MacKinnon can score 140+ points and compete for Art Rosses against prime McDavid.
Crosby wouldn't be able to put up close to McDavid numbers.

 

[Midnight Judges]

2011 - OV 7th in total pts, 9th in ppg
2012 - OV 37th in total pts, 38th in ppg
2013 - OV 3rd in total pts, 5th in ppg
2014 - OV 8th in total pts, 11 in ppg
2015 - OV 4th in total pts, 8th in ppg
2016 - OV 15th in total pts, 20th in ppg

His age 25 - 30 seasons showed he was no generational player. He was basically a non factor for the ross every year besides 2013 (highest 5th in ppg)

Look at Kucherov's 25 to 30, Drai 25 to 30 and Macks 25 to 30

All three are are signifcantly ahead and more valuable players than OV from 25 to 30

Oh man do you think Ovie will make the 25-30 hall of fame? -Which most definitely is a thing that you didn't just invent?