Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

I acknowledged the environmental change in my post. That's not dishonest.

By all means, let's post the adjustment (why didn't you?):

Crosby's 2010 season adjusts to 117 points and 56 goals

McDavid's 2023 season adjusts to 146 points and 62 goals

It's not close.

But you knew that and still refused to post the data - because your post is intellectually dishonest. You desired to mislead people into thinking these two seasons are comparable.

I never compared those two seasons together. 2010 isn't even a top 5 season by Crosby. Not sure who you are arguing against, but you quoted the wrong person.

 

[edog37]

Same tier. McDavid is the more physically gifted player. Crosby has a more impressive resume.

Crosby is the better overall player. It’s just that simple.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Counting half and quarter seasons as leading the league in PPG is intellectually dishonest.

McDavid led the NHL in PPG for full seasons. It's not the same thing.

Of course, looking at PPG in hindsight is completely unnecessary anyway. McDavid led the NHL in points 5 times. Crosby 2 times. 5 to 2. <----That is the real life record that you are attempting to obfuscate for your boy.

We were just counting partial seasons. So the same guy who wanted to give Kane and Malkin credit for being injured in a season wants to now pretend like a healthy Crosby who led the league in PPG for years in his prime wouldn't continue to do it during a full season in his prime?

Also 2013 was a full season, but a lock out one. Crosby tied for the lead in points and also blew the doors off the competition in PPG. So at least learn to count if you want to discount Crosby's achievements.

 

[Midnight Judges]

2010 isn't even a top 5 season by Crosby. Not sure who you are arguing against, but you quoted the wrong person.

That is intellectually dishonest.

You claimed you wanted the scoring environment factored in, but now you don't like the result.

Crosby's 2010 season is his second highest adjusted point total and by far his highest goal total. You are deluding yourself if you think that isn't at the very least a top 2 season for Sid (although it is clearly #1).

But since you prefer other seasons, let's go with Crosby's 2007 season, which is his highest adjusted point total:

122 adjusted points and 38 adjusted goals.

Still gets the crap kicked out of it by McDavid's 146 point / 62 goal adjusted 2023 season.

 

[DitchMarner]

I legitimately did not realize or know there were people who thought the scoring race competition circa 2015 was stronger than today's competition. I think it was terrible. That mid 2010s period has to be one of the most boring since I started following hockey. Guys like Tavares and Stamkos dealt with injuries and players like Hudler and Voracek were top scorers. It was not an exciting time in NHL history.

 

[Midnight Judges]

We were just counting partial seasons. So the same guy who wanted to give Kane and Malkin credit for being injured in a season...

I said no such thing. You are confused.

I said it was a weak season for top players. Because it was.

 

[DitchMarner]

Also 2013 was a full season, but a lock out one. Crosby tied for the lead in points and also blew the doors off the competition in PPG. So at least learn to count if you want to discount Crosby's achievements.

No, not quite. He tied Ovechkin for third in points. Stamkos and St. Louis had more.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Also 2013 was a full season, but a lock out one. Crosby tied for the lead in points

That is false. Crosby was 4th in points.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I legitimately did not realize or know there were people who thought the scoring race competition circa 2015 was stronger than today's competition. I think it was terrible. That mid 2010s period has to be one of the most boring since I started following hockey. Guys like Tavares and Stamkos dealt with injuries and players like Hudler and Voracek were top scorers. It was not an exciting time in NHL history.

I think people feel like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin circa 2007-2012 was a more exciting time period then the McDavid, Drai, Kucherov/Mackinnon era. I don't think anybody is defending the 2013-2016 era.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No, you also said that Kane and Malkin would challenge him if they had been healthy. Keeping up with your comments is like a moderator for Trump. I give up. You spew so much BS with an agenda spin on it that I can't even take you seriously on here.

Kane a had a 106 point / 46 goal season a mere two years later.

Malkin had a 109 point / 50 goal season a mere two seasons earlier.

Stamkos had a 60 goal / 97 points season at age 21 a mere two seasons earlier.

All three of those seasons are vastly superior to Crosby's 34 secondary assist / 104 point 2014 season.

Therefore, 2014 was not a strong season for top players. Nor is it outlandish to think any of those guys could have challenged Crosby's 104 points/70 primary points/36 goals if healthy.

The data undermines your Trump-level Crosby propaganda.

 

[DitchMarner]

I think people feel like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin circa 2007-2012 was a more exciting time period then the McDavid, Drai, Kucherov/Mackinnon era. I don't think anybody is defending the 2013-2016 era.

Those three were certainly exciting in their earlier years. I'm not sure it was a better or more exciting era than today, though. I remember when I joined this site (2017) people used to tease the older generation for 80s/90s nostalgia. I think now there is some nostalgia for the 2000s and early 2010s. Maybe by 2036, people will fondly reminisce about the days of 140+ point seasons by Mack, Kuch and McDavid.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I'm not looking at this as who has the most impressive resume, I'm looking at this as who is the better hockey player and it's McDavid.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Kane a had a 106 point / 46 goal season a mere two years later.

Did you include how weak McDavid's 21 and 22 win was when you compare the fact that it was during a year where Kucherov and Mackinnon were hurt? Oh and don't forget to include Bedard who might have a break out season next year and get 100 points.

Malkin had a 109 point / 50 goal season a mere two seasons earlier.

Oh yeah, injured and past his prime Malkin. Add an injured Crosby to that list above for McDavid's 21 and 22 win, I am sure he would have challenged McDavid those years too if he was healthy.

Stamkos had a 60 goal / 97 points season at age 21 a mere two seasons earlier.

Oh wow, can we throw in draisaitl for that 21 campaign of McDavid's too now, I forgot he was good just the year before.

All three of those seasons are vastly superior to Crosby's 35 secondary assist / 104 point 2014 season.

Therefore, 2014 was not a strong season for top players. Nor is it outlandish to think any of those guys could have challenged Crosby's 104 points/70 primary points/36 goals if healthy.

The data undermines your Trump-level Crosby propaganda.

The reading of the data is all that matters. And if we read McDavid's accomplishments in your jaded view of history, he has like 1 legit Art Ross win.

Those three were certainly exciting in their earlier years. I'm not sure it was a better or more exciting era than today, though. I remember when I joined this site (2017) people used to tease the older generation for 80s/90s nostalgia. I think now there is some nostalgia for the 2000s and early 2010s. Maybe by 2036, people will fondly reminisce about the days of 140+ point seasons by Mack, Kuch and McDavid.

This season was objectively exciting. I think from the 2005 lockout to just before the 2013 lockout there was exciting hockey. But 2013-2017 was a bit rough. Having Malkin, Ovechkin, and Crosby all competing for Art Rosses with the leftover greats like Jagr and Thornton still hanging in at the early part of that era feels very reminiscent of when Crosby/Ovechkin were still hanging around as top scorers for the beginning of the McDavid/Kucherov/Draisaitl/Matthews era. I really like where hockey is headed.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The reading of the data is all that matters. And if we read McDavid's accomplishments in your jaded view of history, he has like 1 legit Art Ross win.

Tell you what, I'll say my opinions, and you can say yours.

You are not comprehending mine.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Tell you what, I'll say my opinions, and you can say yours.

You are not comprehending mine.

That is because you have an agenda, not an opinion. Anytime somebody pokes holes in your faulty logic you take your ball and go home.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

How do you compare the two Canadian superstars?

Have Crosby better because of his two-way play and ability to lead to championships.
If, say, McDavid bore down and became a Selke-level beast while maintaining some amount of production then he'd likely become a Stanley Cup champion as well...and they'd be on the same level.

 

[Killswitch]

Have Crosby better because of his two-way play and ability to lead to championships.
If, say, McDavid bore down and became a Selke-level beast while maintaining some amount of production then he'd likely become a Stanley Cup champion as well...and they'd be on the same level.

Has Crosby even been a finalist for the Selke?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Has Crosby even been a finalist for the Selke?

He has finished 7th and 4th. These finishes and odd votes here and there over the years gave him this reputation of having 'Selke level defense'

 

[GreatGonzo]

Have Crosby better because of his two-way play and ability to lead to championships.
If, say, McDavid bore down and became a Selke-level beast while maintaining some amount of production then he'd likely become a Stanley Cup champion as well...and they'd be on the same level.

Why is this the standard when Crosby never even accomplished that?

I love how the majority of people that would pick Crosby use defense and leadership to say he’s the better player….then make a criteria that McDavid MUST meet that Crosby never did…

McDavid has hit levels Crosby never did, and accomplished things Crosby never did. To say Crosby is on a “different level” because leadership and defense….talk about Lazy

 

[Midnight Judges]

That is because you have an agenda, not an opinion. Anytime somebody pokes holes in your faulty logic you take your ball and go home.

That is the exact opposite of what happened. I posted adjusted statistics to support my position.

You keep wrongly inferring things that I didn't say. I didn't say any of Crosby's 2 Art Rosses weren't legitimate. I'm simply saying his 2014 season wasn't all that great, and I'm using context from surrounding seasons to support that assertion.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

That is the exact opposite of what happened. I posted adjusted statistics to support my position.

You keep wrongly inferring things that I didn't say. I didn't say any of Crosby's 2 Art Rosses weren't legitimate. I'm simply saying his 2014 season wasn't all that great, and I'm using context from surrounding seasons to support that assertion.

You don't see how odd it is to say that in a year where Crosby finished 20% higher in scoring than 2nd place, and lead the league in PPG by a fair margin as well is not that great of a season?

I don't get your logic. I used your same logic on McDavid's 21 and 22 art ross wins, where neither Kucherov or MacKinnon was healthy, and Draisaitl wasn't healthy either for one of those years. So you must believe that McDavid's 21 and 22 Art Ross wins were weak, right?

 

[Midnight Judges]

You don't see how odd it is to say that in a year where Crosby finished 20% higher in scoring than 2nd place, and lead the league in PPG by a fair margin as well is not that great of a season?

Not remotely - because the top scorers in any given season is a very small and therefore volatile sample size.

You're talking about a handful of players. It is totally within the realm of possibility that the 5th best season in 1 year can be better than the top season of the very next.

The fact that Stamkos/Malkin/Kane were injured doesn't actually make Crosby's season better. It doesn't change the value much at all.

You're also putting way too much stock in points. Crosby had 34 secondary assists. It is the among the lowest primary point totals of any art ross winner.

 

[JoelWarlord]

No they didn't. Their shots against increased over the 2016 playoffs and their defensive and offensive stats were nearly identical.

I think the board messed up the quote you selected b/c I didn't say that and I agree with you hahaha

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Not remotely - because the top scorers in any given season is a very small and therefore volatile sample size.

You're talking about a handful of players. It is totally within the realm of possibility that the 5th best season in 1 year can be better than the top season of the very next.

The fact that Stamkos/Malkin/Kane were injured doesn't actually make Crosby season better. In fact it doesn't change the value at all.

So you don't think McDavid's 21 and 22 Art Rosses are impressive because the top scorers were all injured that year by your logic.

You have bad logic.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't get your logic. I used your same logic on McDavid's 21 and 22 art ross wins, where neither Kucherov or MacKinnon was healthy, and Draisaitl wasn't healthy either for one of those years. So you must believe that McDavid's 21 and 22 Art Ross wins were weak, right?

I have no issue if you want to consider surrounding seasons when assessing Mcdavid's '21 or '22 season.

I think the board messed up the quote you selected b/c I didn't say that and I agree with you hahaha

Yeah you weren't who I was trying to quote there.