Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
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Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?
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GreatGonzo
Registered User
Saying MAF is a better and clearly superior playoff goalie than Edmontons duo is in no way shape or form saying that he was a BIG reason for all three cups, he’s saying he showed to be a much more reliable and stable goaltender. Nice try though..
Crosby and Ovechkin are generational players. It doesn’t take much to see that. Are they in the “big 4” tier of “generational?” Arguably no.
Anything else?
With what I’ve seen McDavid do with his speed and skills, I have no clue how you can come up with this statement.
And Oilers had one whopping series in this year's Cup run where Skinner's sv% was worse than his opponent's, and it wasn't in the SCF, BTW. And it was in the series where McDavid had 1 goal and was 4th in team scoring. Put the 2024 version of McDavid on the 2009 Pens and they are out in the 2nd round.
Not seeing where Crosby had significantly more help in his Cup runs.
2008 - Leading playoff scorer, team loses to the clear best Cup winner in the past 20 years.
2009 - Conn Smythe favourite after 3 rounds (a better three round performance than McDavid's 2024 run) and ends up with an era-best goal total
2016 - Conn Smythe
2017 - Conn Smythe
And in this one whopping series, the most hyped playoff series of the lockout, Crosby delivers the best individual series performance since the lockout. Talk about overcoming bad goaltending!
In 2009, he also scored the first goal of a game SIX times.
It is reasonable to say he would be putting up 130 to 150 points.
KevinRedkey
12/18/23 and beyond!
- Jan 22, 2010
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McDavid has amassed 347 points in his last 195 games (1.78ppg).
If we're looking for similar sample in terms of total points - I think Crosby's 2009 playoffs to the 2013 playoffs is his best chunk. He amassed 341 points in 237 games (1.44ppg).
If we're looking for similar sample in terms of games played - I think Corsby's 2009 to 2013 regular season is his best chunk. He played 292 points in 199 games (1.47ppg).
Those saying McDavid is better now, weren't saying it to the same degree (or even at all in some cases) before he 'levelled up'. What he's done recently is what seperates him from Crosby more so than what he did in his first 6 years.
OtherThingsILike
Registered User
Yep.
Top 5 Art Ross Finishes, 2020-24:
2020: Draisaitl, McDavid, Pastrnak, Panarin, MacKinnon
2021: McDavid, Draisaitl, Marchand, Marner, Matthews (this was the weird COVID year where each team played only teams in their Division)
2022: McDavid, Gaudreau, Huberdeau, Draisaitl, Kaprizov
2023: McDavid, Draisaitl, Pastrnak, Kucherov, MacKinnon
2024: Kucherov, MacKinnon, McDavid, Panarin, Pastrnak
Total Top 5 Finishes:
McDavid (5)
Draisaitl (4)
MacKinnon (3)
Pastrnak (3)
Kucherov (2)
Panarin (2)
Gaudreau (1)
Huberdeau (1)
Kaprizov (1)
Marchand (1)
Marner (1)
Matthews (1)
Total Players: 12
And again, those numbers include the weird outlier COVID season in 2021.
Top 5 Art Ross Finishes, 2010-2014:
2010: H. Sedin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Stamkos
2011: D Sedin, St. Louis, Perry, H. Sedin, Stamkos
2012: Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux, Spezza, Kovalchuk
2013: St. Louis, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Crosby, Kane
2014: Crosby, Getzlaf, Giroux, Seguin, Perry
Total Top 5 Finishes:
Stamkos (4)
Crosby (3)
Giroux (2)
Ovechkin (2)
Perry (2)
H. Sedin (2)
St. Louis (2)
Backstrom (1)
Getzlaf (1)
Kane (1)
Kovalchuk (1)
Malkin (1)
D. Sedin (1)
Seguin (1)
Spezza (1)
Total Players: 15
They aren't, necessarily. But if you add McDavid, Draisaitl, and Panarin to that list, that's pretty much the entire list of players who can compete for an Art Ross in this current era.
Correct. More players capable of winning a scoring title = tougher competition
Fewer players capable of winning a scoring title = weaker competition
I'm glad we agree here.
OtherThingsILike
Registered User
Rantanen, Nylander, and Miller aren't actual threats to win the Art Ross, so they don't belong here.
Matthews isn't really either, except in the outlier COVID season.
Nope.
There are about 5 players today who are capable of challenging McDavid for the Art Ross, and one of them is his teammate. That's incredibly weak competition.
OtherThingsILike
Registered User
Sure. I'm not saying the overall hockey was more exciting than it was today.
There are lots of rule changes that have made hockey more exciting today. Different rules on defense, smaller goalie equipment helps. Plus, teams actually try icing four lines who try to score instead of otherwise useless facepunchers means that even the lower-tier players are capable of doing something exciting.
It's just a shame that there are so few truly elite players nowadays to take advantage of the environment.
I'm not sure how you're measuring 'name recognition'.
Nonetheless, I would argue that Kane, the Sedins, Kovalchuk, and Perry also had name recognition. And more than that, they were all capable of challenging for an Art Ross.
There are two major ways that the game is softer now than it was ten years ago:
The crackdown on slashing to the hands.
The crackdown on crosschecking.
67 others
Registered User
That's because when healthy, he is better than the pack.
Rantanen, Nylander are still far better players than Voracek, who was 5th in scoring in that 2014-15 year you cited. And light years better than Hudler/Foligno types who were I. The top 10
That 2015 year, Ovechkin is VERY comparable to Matthews this year
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If Mcdavid was on any of the Pittsburgh teams of past in place of Crosby they have at least another cup or two he is just hands down. How do you think Crosby would have faired on the teams that Mcdavid has playered for?
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
The reason so few players are capable of winning the Art Ross now is because of how good the absolute best talent is, not because there's worse depth among superstar or top five to 20 level scorers. If a guy like Benn (no offense to him - very good and gritty player at his best) is an Art Ross threat, that probably means the competition for the award isn't that strong (in an historical sense), not the opposite.
- Feb 10, 2010
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No it isn't.
Crosby's highest point season adjusts to 122 points.
McDavid's best season adjusts to 146 points.
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Not many will argue that skill wise, Dan marino >>>> Steve Young or Joe Montana. Dude never won the big one. Thats a big deal at the end of the day.
If McDavid never wins a Cup, but has whatever combination of 20 Art Ross's, Lindsay's, and Harts, he will be a notch below Sid still.
Sid is way ahead of all the guys you named. Toews was the Captain of Cup teams, but never won much individually. Stamkos is similar to Toews. Malkin is the would coulda if it werent for injuries, but I think we can all agree has mostly played second fiddle to Sid his entire career. MacKinnon is starting to paint his resume and another Cup or Hart will cement him ahead of McDavid for me until Connor wins that Cup.
OtherThingsILike
Registered User
There's objectively worse depth among the top-level scorers today. I already demonstrated it.
Why does a guy like Benn being an Art Ross threat "probably" mean the competition for the award isn't that strong, rather than the opposite?
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
This isn't that hard...
In a world with a Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr or McDavid, do you think a player of Jamie Benn's calibre sniffs an Art Ross?
He didn't have a huge outlier season and win, either. He won with 87 points. In terms of adjusted scoring, his win is one of the weaker ones of the post-expansion era. You can say that the reason he won is that the competition for the award was relatively weak.
It is the high end (the bar) that indicates how strong the competition is for the Art Ross. If McDavid and Kucherov were worse offensive players than they are, there would be more competition for the Art Ross (they wouldn't be hogging the award; other players would actually have a shot at winning it). But that wouldn't mean the competition for the Ross is stronger; it would mean there is a lower bar.
Romang67
BitterSwede
This logic doesn't logic.
3 different players won the Art Ross between 1981 and 2001. That didn't mean the competition was weak.
GreatGonzo
Registered User
Jamie Benn and MSL won scoring titles during those years. So in what way was competition greater? MSL and Benn don’t get close to a scoring title any other years.
To be fair the 'Golden Era' was spurred on by Gretzky, the most marketable player we have ever seen, and insane growth of the game. We are seeing that happen again with the legalization of sports gambling, and the game expanding once again to new markets. It usually has very little to do with the on ice product.
It is mostly through the expansion of the game, scoring clearly went up directly in relation to the new teams being added to the league. However, the game has gotten noticeably more strict on cheap shots, leading with elbows, leaning your leg out, targeting the head, etc.
GreatGonzo
Registered User
Crosby literally won his first cup going pointless 5/7 games…having only 3 points in the series..and barely played in game 7. How much more help do you need? When is the last time McDavid had a performance like that and his team STILL won?
Again, how was Crosbys first 3 rounds “better?” Because more goals?
2016 will always be Crosbys nice little life time achievement award. Definitely the weakest smythe in recent memory and one of the weakest all time.
molon labe
Registered User
Are you trying to ask whether Crosby could pass the puck to Draisaitl or whether Hyman could be of benefit as a net front guy to a man who's made a career of finding those types of players?
Or whether McDavid could carry Connor Sheary to playoff lore?
What's the ask here?
Mid 20's Sid in this league without the physical liberties taken on him? Or McDavid going through Lundqvist, Holtby, Rinne, etc. during their primes?
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
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He said that he doubts the Pens win 3 Cups with Smith or Skinner in place of Fleury. That's giving Fleury too much credit for all 3 wins considering Fleury had zero impact on the 2016 win. He played a single game (and lost it). Pretty sure the Pens still win that Cup with Smith or Skinner playing Fleury's role.
That's the point. The poster made it sound like without Fleury's goaltending, the Pens don't win 3 Cups. That's factually incorrect.
So again, saying "nice try" ignores the fact that person is literally crediting the Pens having Fleury in nets instead of (insert random mediocre goalie) as the reason for 3 Cups. That's simply giving Fleury too much credit.
I mean, I quoted someone who said Crosby (and Ovechkin) are NOT generational. You asked me to point out where someone actually said that or if I made it up. I did exactly that. You moving the goal posts about what "tier" they're in is actually an example of YOU making a strawman argument because that wasn't what my original quote was about.
This is your thing. You're incapable of saying "my mistake, I didn't see that post", and instead just double down by moving the talking points to try and make t seem like the person was wrong all along.
Didn't St. Louis finish 5th in scoring in 2007? Hasn't he been an elite top playmaker in the league for years before that scoring title? Wasn't it in a shortened season? Wasn't he dishing the puck to one of the greatest goal scorers of all time at his peak during that year?
I think he gets close to a scoring title with a peak Stamkos quite easily in other years. St. Louis just criminally underrated, and him and Stammer together in their heyday was something special.
Anaheim4ever
Registered User
- Jun 15, 2017
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Regular Season: McDavid for sure
Playoffs: Crosby for sure. McDavid isn't far behind he had to carry that whole Oilers team to the finals on his back.
Playoffs: Crosby for sure. McDavid isn't far behind he had to carry that whole Oilers team to the finals on his back.
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