Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Miro4Norris]

If Mcdavid was on any of the Pittsburgh teams of past in place of Crosby they have at least another cup or two he is just hands down. How do you think Crosby would have faired on the teams that Mcdavid has playered for?

If if if. McDavid's support this year was way stronger than 2009 Pens or 2017 Letang-less Pens. He needs to score on most important games if he eats his team's every offensive shift with playing all-star linemates all the time. If all these guys were Canadian, Every one of Mcdavid's LINEMATES Drai, Hyman, Bouchard and Ekholm would make it to team Canada rn. Only Crosby's team Canada level TEAMMATE would have been Malkin during that run.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Because at 37yo that's not going to happen anymore...

what? you seem to be confused, Im saying that about McDavid. let the guy earn his place over guys like Crosby. sorry but he's not over taking him on the all time list yet just like he hasnt over taken any of the top 4 like Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux or Howe

 

[PainForShane]

It’s hilarious how many times I see “weak” linemates being used to suggest Crosby is superior.

It’s either “Crosby makes everyone around him better! McDavid doesn’t!” Or…”well Crosby didn’t produce well because his linemates were bad!”

How convenient it is

Also, “physical liberties.” People really are trying to suggest that Crosby was on some sort of “grab and clutch” era. He literally came into the league falling all over the place drawing PPs like it was going out of style.


I literally told you that’s not what he was saying….but feel free and continue being obtuse.

You did say that... and you were wrong.

It also seems like you're going out of your way to be disrespectful of the fact that you couldn't be bothered or are incapable of understanding the context of message that the other poster literally quoted to respond to your weird attack on him. By the way he quoted the full context in a direct response to your accusation of a Strawman so you had easy access to everything you should've needed.

This isn't a problem with @Sidney the Kidney. He's not the one being obtuse.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Possibly, depending on the what kind of year Crosby and McDavid and others would be having. We just had Gaudreau and Huberdeau come in 2nd and 3rd in scoring in 21/22. McDavid didn't take the lead until the last 5 games of that season. So it really just depends on if his big years would line up with more "average years" from McDavid and Crosby, Kucherov, etc. I definitely rate St. Louis higher than Gaudreau and Huberdeau, that's for certain.

MSL wouldn’t be in the running for the scoring title in, let’s say the past 5 years. That shouldn’t be anything against MSL either, but the top talent of today is better, and that really shouldn’t mean that MSL wasn’t great.

Gaudreau and Huberdeau were basically lightning in a bottle, the perfect storm. They haven’t replicated that kind of play since, while McDavid has gotten significantly better. MSL has better longevity and a better individual resume than those guys. I would say those guys may have peaked higher though, MSL just happened to have his best years under the right circumstances in terms of talent and scoring. At least that’s how I see it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You did say that... and you were wrong.

It also seems like you're going out of your way to be disrespectful of the fact that you couldn't be bothered or are incapable of understanding the context of message that the other poster literally quoted to respond to your weird attack on him. By the way he quoted the full context in a direct response to your accusation of a Strawman so you had easy access to everything you should've needed.

This isn't a problem with @Sidney the Kidney. He's not the one being obtuse.

I wasn’t, but that’s fine. Believe what you want to.

Except he’s the king of McDavid haters and rides Crosby like he does no wrong. His arguments are constantly hypocritical and he quite literally loves distorting facts. Sorry if feelings get hurt when I call him out on it

 

[PainForShane]

I wasn’t, but that’s fine. Believe what you want to.

Except he’s the king of McDavid haters and rides Crosby like he does no wrong. His arguments are constantly hypocritical and he quite literally loves distorting facts. Sorry if feelings get hurt when I call him out on it

I'll believe what the poster actually said / meant in his quote (the one that was quoted after you pushed him on something that was obvious to anyone reading this thread). Thx.

And also, fairly certain no one's feelings are hurt, certainly not by you "calling him out" on your own inability to understand messages in a discussion you yourself are taking active part in. Just my two cents, carry on

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I wasn’t, but that’s fine. Believe what you want to.

Except he’s the king of McDavid haters and rides Crosby like he does no wrong. His arguments are constantly hypocritical and he quite literally loves distorting facts. Sorry if feelings get hurt when I call him out on it

The irony coming from literally the biggest Crosby hater on this site (which says something considering there's a few regulars who take digs at Crosby).


It's weird how I'm the one that distorts and changes facts (proof, please) and you just present facts, yet you've gotten into more arguments with people in the past 3 pages than just me because of your posts, while the only person who seems to be arguing with my posts is you.

At some point, when EVERYONE seems to be disagreeing with you, it's a "you" problem not the rest of us.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

McDavid is better but I don’t think he’s in a completely different tier in terms of talent. Sid wasn’t able to maximize his prime with injuries though, so McDavid might end up in a different tier of career

Well said

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'll believe what the poster actually said / meant in his quote (the one that was quoted after you pushed him on something that was obvious to anyone reading this thread). Thx.

And also, fairly certain no one's feelings are hurt, certainly not by you "calling him out" on your own inability to understand messages in a discussion you yourself are taking active part in. Just my two cents, carry on

That’s not at all what he said, he said that Pens don’t have 3 cups with Skinner instead of MAF, was he ACTUALLY saying “MAF is a MAJOR reason why the Pens have 3 cups!” Like it was translated to be?

The irony coming from literally the biggest Crosby hater on this site (which says something considering there's a few regulars who take digs at Crosby).


It's weird how I'm the one that distorts and changes facts (proof, please) and you just present facts, yet you've gotten into more arguments with people in the past 3 pages than just me because of your posts, while the only person who seems to be arguing with my posts is you.

At some point, when EVERYONE seems to be disagreeing with you, it's a "you" problem not the rest of us.

Calling out your nonsense is taking anything away from Crosby. It’s simply showing you how ridiculous a lot of your takes are, especially regarding McDavid….who you look for any opportunity to discredit.

 

[PainForShane]

That’s not at all what he said, he said that Pens don’t have 3 cups with Skinner instead of MAF, was he ACTUALLY saying “MAF is a MAJOR reason why the Pens have 3 cups!” Like it was translated to be?

Calling out your nonsense is taking anything away from Crosby. It’s simply showing you how ridiculous a lot of your takes are, especially regarding McDavid….who you look for any opportunity to discredit.

Um... yes?

If the Pens don't get to 3 cups without MAF, that means MAF was at least necessary for at least one of those cups (not exactly what other poster said but close enough). Put another way if MAF had been on a different team, then the quoted post was arguing Pens wouldn't have won all 3 years.

By definition that means MAF was a big contributor to least one of those cups -- after all, if the lack of player presence means the team doesn't win -- but the team did win with the player -- well then that player is clearly a difference maker. I don't agree with the claim itself, but the logic is... extremely easy to follow.

Now that I wrote it in crayon for you, maybe it will make sense to you. I can always draw pictures too.

^

 

[Offtheboard412]

MSL wouldn’t be in the running for the scoring title in, let’s say the past 5 years. That shouldn’t be anything against MSL either, but the top talent of today is better, and that really shouldn’t mean that MSL wasn’t great.

Gaudreau and Huberdeau were basically lightning in a bottle, the perfect storm. They haven’t replicated that kind of play since, while McDavid has gotten significantly better. MSL has better longevity and a better individual resume than those guys. I would say those guys may have peaked higher though, MSL just happened to have his best years under the right circumstances in terms of talent and scoring. At least that’s how I see it.

21/22 was 3 seasons ago.McDavid had already played at an 150+ point pace when he put up 105 in 56 games the season before. He was as good then as he is now. McDavid at his best is almost a lock for the scoring title, but he has not been at that level every single year. So yeah, I do think he could compete for the scoring title in the past 5 years. You say Gaudreau and Huberdeau were lightning in a bottle yet rule out St. Louis who would be playing with a prime age pre leg break Stamkos. The league now is exactly the type of league St. Louis was built to thrive in.

 

[Bank Shot]

If if if. McDavid's support this year was way stronger than 2009 Pens or 2017 Letang-less Pens. He needs to score on most important games if he eats his team's every offensive shift with playing all-star linemates all the time. If all these guys were Canadian, Every one of Mcdavid's LINEMATES Drai, Hyman, Bouchard and Ekholm would make it to team Canada rn. Only Crosby's team Canada level TEAMMATE would have been Malkin during that run.

Crosby had 3 points in the Finals in 2009. He got carried offensively by his team in that series. You can't say the same for McDavid at any point in his playoff career.

In 2017 the Penguins ended up against a cinderella opponent.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Um... yes?

If the Pens don't get to 3 cups without MAF, that means MAF was at least necessary for at least one of those cups (not exactly what other poster said but close enough). Put another way if MAF had been on a different team, then the quoted post was arguing Pens wouldn't have won all 3 years.

By definition that means MAF was a big contributor to least one of those cups -- after all, if the lack of player presence means the team doesn't win -- but the team did win with the player -- well then that player is clearly a difference maker. I don't agree with the claim itself, but the logic is... extremely easy to follow.



^

I agree if the Penguins did not play with a goalie they would have not won 3 cups. There were a lot of goalies who could have replaced MAF in 2009 and still won.

Crosby had 3 points in the Finals in 2009. He got carried offensively by his team in that series. You can't say the same for McDavid at any point in his playoff career.

In 2017 the Penguins ended up against a cinderella opponent.

In the finals, yes. They also beat the best team in the league in the second round. Which they also did the year before.

 

[BudBundy]

For me it’s McDavid. Being a “tier” above is a bit nebulous, so I’ll just say he’s slightly better.

People can debate this to death, but to me it just comes down to the observation that McDavid does unbelievable things on a regular basis that I’ve never seen ANY other hockey player do. I’m in my 50s and I’ve never seen anyone like him. He’s going to finish in the top 5 pantheon of all-time hockey players by the time he’s done.

 

[Video Nasty]

Only McDavid can win a pair of scoring races by 25% and 19.5% over the runner up, his teammate, and by 52.2% and 35.4% over his closest non-teammate, and not gain traction with people enamored by what if fantasy nonsense over a guy who won a single scoring race past the age of 19.

McDavid and his achievements are literally the embodiment (and then some) of all the wildest fantasies of the most ardent Crosby supporters and they turn their noses up because it’s the wrong name and number on the jersey.

 

[GreatGonzo]

21/22 was 3 seasons ago.McDavid had already played at an 150+ point pace when he put up 105 in 56 games the season before. He was as good then as he is now. McDavid at his best is almost a lock for the scoring title, but he has not been at that level every single year. So yeah, I do think he could compete for the scoring title in the past 5 years. You say Gaudreau and Huberdeau were lightning in a bottle yet rule out St. Louis who would be playing with a prime age pre leg break Stamkos. The league now is exactly the type of league St. Louis was built to thrive in.

But what makes you think that? You really think he could keep up with McDavid?

And why all of a sudden does a prime stamkos come with the idea of MSL playing in this league?

 

[Bank Shot]

I agree if the Penguins did not play with a goalie they would have not won 3 cups. There were a lot of goalies who could have replaced MAF in 2009 and still won.


In the finals, yes. They also beat the best team in the league in the second round. Which they also did the year before.

They did. Key word: they.

Winning the Cup is a team effort. If that is the only argument for Crosby over McDavid than its a sign that there isn't really any good argument to be made that Crosby was better.

 

[Offtheboard412]

But what makes you think that? You really think he could keep up with McDavid?

And why all of a sudden does a prime stamkos come with the idea of MSL playing in this league?

It's simple. If Huberdeau and Gaudreau could finish 2nd and 3rd, then I have zero doubt that MSL could also pull that off. If McDavid ended up missing 25% of the season like Crosby did in 2013, then yes I believe in a career year MSL could win an Art Ross. It's not likely, but nobody would have predicted him winning in 2013 either.

He comes with prime Stamkos because that's who he was playing with when he won it in 2013. You're arguing that he couldn't win it today, well he's too old to play in the league now so we have to use a time travel angle where we place a 2013 St. Louis in today's league. Considering playing with Stamkos at the time was a big reason for him winning it then, it's fair that he would be given the same advantages that he had in 2013.

 

[pi314]

McDavid has amassed 347 points in his last 195 games (1.78ppg).

If we're looking for similar sample in terms of total points - I think Crosby's 2009 playoffs to the 2013 playoffs is his best chunk. He amassed 341 points in 237 games (1.44ppg).

If we're looking for similar sample in terms of games played - I think Corsby's 2009 to 2013 regular season is his best chunk. He played 292 points in 199 games (1.47ppg).

Those saying McDavid is better now, weren't saying it to the same degree (or even at all in some cases) before he 'levelled up'. What he's done recently is what seperates him from Crosby more so than what he did in his first 6 years.

The whole league went up in scoring, not just McDavid.

All that happened is the league regulated smaller goalie equipment.

All Crosby has done is win.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's simple. If Huberdeau and Gaudreau could finish 2nd and 3rd, then I have zero doubt that MSL could also pull that off. If McDavid ended up missing 25% of the season like Crosby did in 2013, then yes I believe in a career year MSL could win an Art Ross. It's not likely, but nobody would have predicted him winning in 2013 either.

He comes with prime Stamkos because that's who he was playing with when he won it in 2013. You're arguing that he couldn't win it today, well he's too old to play in the league now so we have to use a time travel angle where we place a 2013 St. Louis in today's league. Considering playing with Stamkos at the time was a big reason for him winning it then, it's fair that he would be given the same advantages that he had in 2013.

Or maybe they simply peaked higher? Those two had 115 points. How many points do you think exactly MSLs best season translate to regarding this era?

 

[OtherThingsILike]

This isn't that hard...

In a world with a Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr or McDavid, do you think a player of Jamie Benn's calibre sniffs an Art Ross?

Just one of those players? Yes, absolutely. After all, he won an Art Ross with prime Crosby in the league, who is a better hockey player than both Jagr and McDavid.
All it would take is some coach telling McDavid (or whoever) that he needs to stop cheating on offense, only the coach has a really strict definition of cheating for offense that means never being outside of your own defensive zone without your team having control of the puck.
Oh, and I suppose the top tier player would have to miss a few games. Crosby only played 77 games that season.

He didn't have a huge outlier season and win, either. He won with 87 points.

Right, because a smaller margin of victory is a good indicator of tough competition.

In terms of adjusted scoring, his win is one of the weaker ones of the post-expansion era.

Right, because when there are lots of great players, they take fewer risks because it can come back to haunt them.
Plus, you know, the significantly better defense and goaltending compared to today.

You can say that the reason he won is that the competition for the award was relatively weak.

And you would be wrong in doing so.

It is the high end (the bar) that indicates how strong the competition is for the Art Ross.

It's the number of players at the high end that indicates how strong the competition is for the Art Ross.

If McDavid and Kucherov were worse offensive players than they are, there would be more competition for the Art Ross (they wouldn't be hogging the award; other players would actually have a shot at winning it).

If there were more elite players in the league (the way it's been in other eras), there would be more competition for the Art Ross. McDavid and Kucherov wouldn't be hogging the award because other players would be good enough to have a shot at winning it.

Also, you kind of indirectly answer the question posed by the thread here. If McDavid isn't a tier above Kucherov, why would he be a tier above Crosby? Is Kucherov also a tier above Crosby?

This logic doesn't logic.

3 different players won the Art Ross between 1981 and 2001. That didn't mean the competition was weak.

And yet, the competition was weak for many of those years.
It might not have been as weak as it is today, but at least during the early 80s, it was.

Jamie Benn and MSL won scoring titles during those years. So in what way was competition greater?

You just answered your own question, More players capable of winning scoring titles = more competition.

MSL and Benn don’t get close to a scoring title any other years.

Prime MSL and Benn would both be contending for scoring titles this year.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

McDavid and his achievements are literally the embodiment (and then some) of all the wildest fantasies of the most ardent Crosby supporters

Certainly. McDavid has taken advantage of the situation he's been handed. I would have loved it if things had been as easy for Crosby as they are for McDavid.

Good for McDavid for taking advantage of the fact that goalie equipment is smaller.

Good for McDavid for taking advantage of the fact that players can't slash the hands or crosscheck people nearly as much.

Good for McDavid for taking advantage of the fact that so few players are capable of challenging him for scoring titles. I would have loved if the only players Crosby had to worry about were Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, and Kane.

Good for McDavid for taking advantage of the fact that goalies are trained differently nowadays, which leads to more goalies with higher floors but fewer goalies with higher ceilings. I would have loved it if Crosby got to face goalies who are pretty much all worse than prime Henrik Lundqvist.

Good for McDavid for taking advantage of the fact that one single goalie from his Division and three goalies from his conference have won a Vezina during his entire playing career. I would have loved it if Crosby could have gotten to play so many games against goalies who've never won the Vezina.

Good for McDavid for getting to make so many deep playoff runs without ever facing a Selke winner, a Norris winner, or a Vezina winner in his prime (Prime being defined as being capable of winning the award once again that season). There are only two postseasons where Crosby played at least two series where that didn't happen, and one of those was 2009, where it did eventually happen in the Stanley Cup Final.

Between the 2013 Eastern Conference Final and the Second Round in 2016, the Penguins played six consecutive playoff series against Vezina-winning goalies in their prime. The Eastern Conference Final was also played against an eventual Vezina-winner, though Vasilevskiy wasn't in his prime yet. Then the Penguins played three series against Vezina winners the next season. Good for McDavid for never having to worry about playing ten playoff series against Vezina-winning goalies in a stretch of 12 playoff series. Good for McDavid for lighting up the goalies he does face. (Well, most of the time. He's only played one playoff series against a Vezina winner in his prime, and the Oilers got swept then.)

By all means, McDavid has made the most of the advantages he's been given. Not all players would be able to. And I admit, I am envious of Oilers fans, because McDavid has had so many opportunities that Crosby did not.

and they turn their noses up because it’s the wrong name and number on the jersey.

We turn up our noses at it because not only do people like you refuse to acknowledge that McDavid has had it easier by multiple orders of magnitude, but then we have to deal with absolute nonsense like the premise of this thread.

 

[crowfish]

I put the active pts/game leaders into Excel and applied a colour scale format. Looks like Excel agrees with me that McDavid is in a tier of his own.

Always remember,
numbers = real, objective, verifiable
narratives = people talking out of their ass

 

[No Fun Shogun]

If you mean right now, yes.

If you mean at their respective primes, no. McDavid's better, but they're in the same conversation.

 

[Romang67]

And yet, the competition was weak for many of those years.
It might not have been as weak as it is today, but at least during the early 80s, it was.


You just answered your own question, More players capable of winning scoring titles = more competition.

Prime MSL and Benn would both be contending for scoring titles this year.

You have a, frankly, bizarre view of what tough competition is. More competition != tougher competition.

If I go to a cooking competition and all contestants are on my level of cooking, there will be more competition. If a single person in there is an actual chef, the competition is tougher.