Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[GreatGonzo]

He said that he doubts the Pens win 3 Cups with Smith or Skinner in place of Fleury. That's giving Fleury too much credit for all 3 wins considering Fleury had zero impact on the 2016 win. He played a single game (and lost it). Pretty sure the Pens still win that Cup with Smith or Skinner playing Fleury's role.

That's the point. The poster made it sound like without Fleury's goaltending, the Pens don't win 3 Cups. That's factually incorrect.

So again, saying "nice try" ignores the fact that person is literally crediting the Pens having Fleury in nets instead of (insert random mediocre goalie) as the reason for 3 Cups. That's simply giving Fleury too much credit.


I mean, I quoted someone who said Crosby (and Ovechkin) are NOT generational. You asked me to point out where someone actually said that or if I made it up. I did exactly that. You moving the goal posts about what "tier" they're in is actually an example of YOU making a strawman argument because that wasn't what my original quote was about.

This is your thing. You're incapable of saying "my mistake, I didn't see that post", and instead just double down by moving the talking points to try and make t seem like the person was wrong all along.

What’s wrong with that? Again, MAF is a proven goaltender in the playoffs. Why are you getting tickled over a factual statement? I made it perfectly clear what he meant…if you just want to believe what you want, go right ahead. It’s just silly.

Facts are, Crosby has ZERO cups without MAF and Murray. Murray was arguably a smythe fav in 2016.

They are generational….98% of the site would agree with you. So why are you getting upset over one lone and outlandish opinion?

that’s fine. Your takes have been rather lousy on most threads I see you in. Keep up the good work.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Didn't St. Louis finish 5th in scoring in 2007? Hasn't he been an elite top playmaker in the league for years before that scoring title? Wasn't it in a shortened season? Wasn't he dishing the puck to one of the greatest goal scorers of all time at his peak during that year?

I think he gets close to a scoring title with a peak Stamkos quite easily in other years. St. Louis just criminally underrated, and him and Stammer together in their heyday was something special.

St. Louis won an Art Ross in 2004. So saying St. Louis winning a scoring title versus Crosby wouldn't happen any other year is factually incorrect (which is par for the course for that poster).

 

[GreatGonzo]

Didn't St. Louis finish 5th in scoring in 2007? Hasn't he been an elite top playmaker in the league for years before that scoring title? Wasn't it in a shortened season? Wasn't he dishing the puck to one of the greatest goal scorers of all time at his peak during that year?

I think he gets close to a scoring title with a peak Stamkos quite easily in other years. St. Louis just criminally underrated, and him and Stammer together in their heyday was something special.

He did, he finished a few times in the top 10. Including a 2nd place finish in 2011.

My point is simple. MSL isn’t even close to the talent of Mack, Drai, McDavid, or even Matthews….yet he won a scoring title in the middle of Crosbys peak.

 

[I am Bettman]

I don't think he sees the ice as quickly or as well either. So many times there will be a scramble with a loose puck and chaos all around and then you'll see Crosby grab the puck and send a pass to an open man before anyone has any idea what just happened.

Crosby also processes the game much better and faster.

It’s clear that some of the people in this thread don’t stay up late enough to watch Mcdavid play.

 

[GreatGonzo]

St. Louis won an Art Ross in 2004. So saying St. Louis winning a scoring title versus Crosby wouldn't happen any other year is factually incorrect (which is par for the course for that poster).

Go ahead and look at the top scorers in 2004, I’ll wait

So MSL can compete with Crosby for scoring titles if let’s say both were in the league today? Interesting..,

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What’s wrong with that? Again, MAF is a proven goaltender in the playoffs. Why are you getting tickled over a factual statement? I made it perfectly clear what he meant…if you just want to believe what you want, go right ahead. It’s just silly.

Facts are, Crosby has ZERO cups without MAF and Murray. Murray was arguably a smythe fav in 2016.

Are you intentionally ignoring the point? The point is that poster keeps giving Fleury credit for all three Cups. He didn't include Murray in that, he specifically said Fleury (and has done so in the past).

Murray was the starter for 2 of the 3 Cups. So how in the hell is FLEURY the reason the Penguins have 3 Cups? He's not. He was only average their first Cup and lost his starting job first to Vokoun in 2013, and then to Murray in 2016/2017. That isn't the track record of someone who is vastly superior to what the Oilers have gotten.

They are generational….98% of the site would agree with you. So why are you getting upset over one lone and outlandish opinion?

that’s fine. Your takes have been rather lousy on most threads I see you in. Keep up the good work.

I mean, you asked me for a quote and I gave one. You're still refusing to admit you were wrong about your accusation. Literally could have ended this discussion with "sorry, didn't see that post", but no. Because you refuse to acknowledge when you made a mistake.

I mean, your takes are literally the worst in these threads. You didn't even know Martin St. Louis won another Art Ross before that season he finished ahead of Crosby. The fact you spout nonsense like that shows whose takes are bad.

Go ahead and look at the top scorers in 2004, I’ll wait

So MSL can compete with Crosby for scoring titles if let’s say both were in the league today? Interesting..,

Goal posts moving again. Your specialty. Your original quote was how St. Louis wouldn't win a scoring title any other year when he in fact did so.

As for your second sentence, sure why not? If McDavid got injured and missed 25% of the season, a prime St. Louis could win one in the same way that Kucherov and Draisaitl have.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Are you trying to ask whether Crosby could pass the puck to Draisaitl or whether Hyman could be of benefit as a net front guy to a man who's made a career of finding those types of players?

Or whether McDavid could carry Connor Sheary to playoff lore?

What's the ask here?

Mid 20's Sid in this league without the physical liberties taken on him? Or McDavid going through Lundqvist, Holtby, Rinne, etc. during their primes?

It’s hilarious how many times I see “weak” linemates being used to suggest Crosby is superior.

It’s either “Crosby makes everyone around him better! McDavid doesn’t!” Or…”well Crosby didn’t produce well because his linemates were bad!”

How convenient it is

Also, “physical liberties.” People really are trying to suggest that Crosby was on some sort of “grab and clutch” era. He literally came into the league falling all over the place drawing PPs like it was going out of style.

Are you intentionally ignoring the point? The point is that poster keeps giving Fleury credit for all three Cups. He didn't include Murray in that, he specifically said Fleury (and has done so in the past).

Murray was the starter for 2 of the 3 Cups. So how in the hell is FLEURY the reason the Penguins have 3 Cups? He's not. He was only average their first Cup and lost his starting job first to Vokoun in 2013, and then to Murray in 2016/2017. That isn't the track record of someone who is vastly superior to what the Oilers have gotten.


I mean, you asked me for a quote and I gave one. You're still refusing to admit you were wrong about your accusation. Literally could have ended this discussion with "sorry, didn't see that post", but no. Because you refuse to acknowledge when you made a mistake.

I mean, your takes are literally the worst in these threads. You didn't even know Martin St. Louis won another Art Ross before that season he finished ahead of Crosby. The fact you spout nonsense like that shows whose takes are bad.


Goal posts moving again. Your specialty. Your original quote was how St. Louis wouldn't win a scoring title any other year when he in fact did so.

As for your second sentence, sure why not? If McDavid got injured and missed 25% of the season, a prime St. Louis could win one and the same way that Kucherov and Draisaitl have.

I literally told you that’s not what he was saying….but feel free and continue being obtuse.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

He did, he finished a few times in the top 10. Including a 2nd place finish in 2011.

My point is simple. MSL isn’t even close to the talent of Mack, Drai, McDavid, or even Matthews….yet he won a scoring title in the middle of Crosbys peak.

MSL is a fantastic disher of the puck, and got to dish it to a peak Stamkos. You seem to have not watched much hockey between the two lockouts. However, I can assure you that 60 goal Stamkos + St. Louis would compete for an Art Ross in any season.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I literally told you that’s not what he was saying….but feel free and continue being obtuse.

I love how you think your interpretation of his comments are fact. Considering I've had similar discussions with that specific poster in the past with regards to Fleury and his contributions to the Pens' success, I'm pretty sure your interpretation is wrong. Kind of like you not knowing St. Louis had won a scoring title prior to 2013.

 

[GreatGonzo]

MSL is a fantastic disher of the puck, and got to dish it to a peak Stamkos. You seem to have not watched much hockey between the two lockouts. However, I can assure you that 60 goal Stamkos + St. Louis would compete for an Art Ross in any season.

My point was, he isn’t better than the top end talent of today. And he beat Crosby for a scoring title and won another, both In somewhat weak times for scoring.

I love how you think your interpretation of his comments are fact. Considering I've had similar discussions with that specific poster in the past with regards to Fleury and his contributions to the Pens' success, I'm pretty sure your interpretation is wrong. Kind of like you not knowing St. Louis had won a scoring title prior to 2013.

I mean it’s more hilarious seeing you try to spin and manipulate things in order to even have an argument.

I’m well aware MSL won a scoring title in ‘04 and that was one of the weakest years for top end talent.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

My point was, he isn’t better than the top end talent of today. And he beat Crosby for a scoring title and won another, both In somewhat weak times for scoring.

Your points are weak—not only because you can't articulate them compellingly, but also because they don't seem to support any argument.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean it’s more hilarious seeing you try to spin and manipulate things in order to even have an argument.

That's your entire posting history. Spinning and manipulating in order to "even have an argument".

You did it in the quote to that other poster above by saying St. Louis beat Crosby for a scoring title. You ignore the fact Crosby missed 12 games and that was the only reason St. Louis won that title. That's "manipulating" facts to make it seem like St. Louis beat a healthy Crosby.

I’m well aware MSL won a scoring title in ‘04 and that was one of the weakest years for top end talent.

Which has nothing to do with the fact you said St. Louis wouldn't win a scoring in ANY other year other than 2013. You were wrong, you can't admit you're wrong, and so now you're just moving the goal posts to dismiss the quality of 2004.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Your points are weak—not only because you can't articulate them compellingly, but also because they don't seem to support any argument.

That’s ironic. Like the pot calling the kettle black. You have yet to replay in a way that refutes anything I say. Maybe go back to the drawing board and come back? I’ll be here..

That's your entire posting history. Spinning and manipulating in order to "even have an argument".

You did it in the quote to that other poster above by saying St. Louis beat Crosby for a scoring title. You ignore the fact Crosby missed 12 games and that was the only reason St. Louis won that title. That's "manipulating" facts to make it seem like St. Louis beat a healthy Crosby.



Which has nothing to do with the fact you said St. Louis wouldn't win a scoring in ANY other year other than 2013. You were wrong, you can't admit you're wrong, and so now you're just moving the goal posts to dismiss the quality of 2004.

so basically, “NO I don’t spin and manipulate things…YOU DO!!”

Talking to you reminds me of talking to my niece. It never gets anywhere but sometimes you say funny things and it keeps me engaged. Look, my point is SIMPLE. MSL isn’t even close to the talent of todays league….yet he won a scoring title during crosbys peak/prime….proving that Crosby didn’t have tougher competition, he just couldn’t separate himself from the pack, and that’s mainly due to injuries, yes.

My god….HE WOULNT WIN A SCORING TITLE IN TODAYS GAME. NOT THAT HE NEVER WON A SCORING TITLE BEFORE THAT. 2004 and 2024 are completely different eras. Now that I wrote it in crayon for you, maybe it will make sense to you. I can always draw pictures too.

 

[lakai17]

Crosby had Letang and MAF on his come up. Nevermind Malkin , Staal, etc, etc

 

[Offtheboard412]

It’s clear that some of the people in this thread don’t stay up late enough to watch Mcdavid play.

I watch McDavid play quite a lot actually. He plays a a very different game than Crosby so it's hard to compare. McDavid is amazing at processing his surroundings while stick handling and skating at full speed. But I think as far as quickly surveying the whole ice and finding the open man Crosby is a touch faster. Of course I'm sure you'll take this as a dig at McDavid when it's not, Crosby has probably the quickest play recognition I've ever seen. It's kind of his thing, especially as he's gotten older and prefers to carry the puck less. He doesn't have the puck skills McDavid has, his game has never been to stickhandle past defenders and create open space. He beats defenses more by moving the puck quickly. Kucherov is another player that specializes in this, although he plays a bit more deceptively than Crosby.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

That’s ironic. Like the pot calling the kettle black. You have yet to replay in a way that refutes anything I say. Maybe go back to the drawing board and come back? I’ll be here..

Your points are refuted all over this thread, you just don't like to acknowledge the facts. Its weird how you can't just admit when you are wrong or make a mistake, even when its painfully obvious you were wrong.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Your points are refuted all over this thread, you just don't like to acknowledge the facts. Its weird how you can't just admit when you are wrong or make a mistake, even when its painfully obvious you were wrong.

Please provide where they are refuted, I’ll wait…

Since it’s soo obvious

 

[WiLBoY]

McDavid is more flashy but the way Crosby plays is very beneficial for playoff style

Grindy, in front of the net, tip ins, strong on puck and good fore checker.

McDavid is more talented but Crosby is a proven winner time and time again.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

this still going on? no the answer still is no. came really close to making his argument stronger though. insanely great players and there's nothing wrong with being behind Crosby. guy is a true winner and a leader.

why not let the guy earn his place above the best players?

He said that he doubts the Pens win 3 Cups with Smith or Skinner in place of Fleury. That's giving Fleury too much credit for all 3 wins considering Fleury had zero impact on the 2016 win. He played a single game (and lost it). Pretty sure the Pens still win that Cup with Smith or Skinner playing Fleury's role.

That's the point. The poster made it sound like without Fleury's goaltending, the Pens don't win 3 Cups. That's factually incorrect.

So again, saying "nice try" ignores the fact that person is literally crediting the Pens having Fleury in nets instead of (insert random mediocre goalie) as the reason for 3 Cups. That's simply giving Fleury too much credit.


I mean, I quoted someone who said Crosby (and Ovechkin) are NOT generational. You asked me to point out where someone actually said that or if I made it up. I did exactly that. You moving the goal posts about what "tier" they're in is actually an example of YOU making a strawman argument because that wasn't what my original quote was about.

This is your thing. You're incapable of saying "my mistake, I didn't see that post", and instead just double down by moving the talking points to try and make t seem like the person was wrong all along.

I wish I could like this

 

[norrisnick]

why not let the guy earn his place above the best players?

Because at 37yo that's not going to happen anymore...

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Please provide where they are refuted, I’ll wait…

Since it’s soo obvious

You don't get to ignore the content of someone's reply and then also make them do the leg work of holding your hand through the conversation again. You are an exhausting person to converse with, and I think I am gonna tap out here. Cheers.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You don't get to ignore the content of someone's reply and then also make them do the leg work of holding your hand through the conversation again. You are an exhausting person to converse with, and I think I am gonna tap out here. Cheers.

Oh, you want to talk about context? This is the same poster that refutes Crosbys horrid play in the finals in ‘09 and claims people are “stat watching” rather than seeing the “true” value he brought?

Ok usually that means you have nothing better to bring to the conversation so I’ll just take it as it is.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

It’s clear that some of the people in this thread don’t stay up late enough to watch Mcdavid play.

No, it's just clear that a lot of fans don't have the hockey sense to understand what they're seeing

 

[Face Of Bear]

todays nhl is way easier to score in. very few good true DEFENSEmen or elite goalies. Forwards are small and soft. McDavid just dangles on ez mode.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Go ahead and look at the top scorers in 2004, I’ll wait

So MSL can compete with Crosby for scoring titles if let’s say both were in the league today? Interesting..,

Possibly, depending on the what kind of year Crosby and McDavid and others would be having. We just had Gaudreau and Huberdeau come in 2nd and 3rd in scoring in 21/22. McDavid didn't take the lead until the last 5 games of that season. So it really just depends on if his big years would line up with more "average years" from McDavid and Crosby, Kucherov, etc. I definitely rate St. Louis higher than Gaudreau and Huberdeau, that's for certain.