Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[rielledup]

His pace is highly inflated and he was more likely to score under 130 in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 than actually do it, or score less than the 76 total points in 48 games to keep up that pace in 2012-2013.

Fun facts:

He started with 15 points in his first 13 games of that magical first half of the 2010-2011 season before piling up 50 in his next 25 games. This is proof enough that he wasn’t immune to falling off at any point in the second half. He had a brilliant hot streak juicing that half season PPG that he never ever proved he was capable of sustaining for longer in his career. He should not be given any sort of benefit of doubt here.

He finished 2011-2012 with 25 points in 14 games after returning from injury. You know, when his opponents all played the second half of the prior season, the playoffs, and the first six months of that current season.

He started 2012-2013 with 7 points in 7 games and finished with 11 points in his final 10 games. Again, not immune to lower point totals sandwiched around hot streaks.

The reality is that, despite the allure of what if, he never did it, before or after the injuries. If he was the type of player we’re led to believe he is, he would have scored 120+ in 2013-2014, not finished behind the Benns and Tavares’ of the world, and fended off a sophomore McDavid before bowing out of the scoring race forever, regardless of what happened between 2010-2011 through 2012-2013.

If you look at his ppg throughout his career Crosby clearly started to decline in his late 20s and wasn't the same player by the time Benn was the Art Ross.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Agreed. Crosby's dominance over his peers those years was statistically very similar to McDavid's 2023-24 season.

There will always be people doubting whether Crosby would have maintained that same dominance over a full season rather than just half seasons over the course of a few years (and fair enough). McDavid also does deserve credit for doing exactly that.

For me though, this is still Crosby because of his insane elite consistency.

In addition to his 8 seasons finishing top 3 in scoring (same as Mcdavid). He has 12 seasons finishing top 10 in scoring, which outside of the big 4, is only matched by Jean Beliveau and Bobby Hull, both of whom accomplished the feat in a 6 team league.

Let's see if McDavid ages as well as Crosby.

His Shooting % was too high and likely to regress. Best evidence of this is that when he did get healthy, that's exactly what happened.

 

[DitchMarner]

This is as much of an exaggeration as you’re fighting against for the 10-13 period. 13-14 was a pretty dominant Art Ross and in line with any of McDavid’s seasons other than his three best. And while he was beaten by Benn and Tavares, he also missed a handful of games and had the better PPG. Is it that much different than McDavid beating Huberdeau and Gaudreau by a handful of points? And Crosby also missed games in McDavid’s sophomore season and essentially matched him in PPG while winning the Richard. There’s also the fact that those injuries added up and Crosby was a lot less aggressive after them. It’s impossible to know what he would have done after 2013 without them (keep in mind his second half of 2013-14 coincided with his wrist injury).

McDavid’s best was a bit better, he was a bit more consistent, and he showed he could put it all together over longer stretches, but there isn’t a huge gap in effectiveness per game up to the same age. He’s a tier ahead in terms of personal accomplishments but not really in terms of ability. It seems likely McDavid will continue to be at a level going forward that’s above what Crosby was able to do after his 3 big injury season, but after 13-14, people assumed Crosby would win more Art Rosses as well, so we won’t know exactly how they compare in that regard until it happens.

I think the next two or three years may establish whether McDavid is in another tier or not.

At the very least, he's as good and is having a better career through nine seasons.

He's been back and forth the last four seasons between blowing away the competition in scoring and having a more modest lead over the next best scorers. I think it's unlikely he hits a level we haven't seen from him yet in his tenth season, but I can see him having another very dominant Art Ross win next year. If he does that and then continues to dominate offensively for a while after that, then I think at some point you have to put him in a tier above even if Crosby showed similar ability to dominate for stretches, especially when he was never quite able to put together a supremely dominant season. If he starts to drop off offensively around the time Crosby did, then he'll probably still have a better career if he ages about as well, but there will be less support for the notion that McDavid was a tier better as a player when their careers are done.

Of course, one can then argue that Crosby would have aged better offensively if not for his injuries. But McDavid isn't without his injuries; they just don't seem to have affected him as much. He suffered a serious leg injury in the last game of the 2019 season. I remember reading comments that he wasn't quite himself the next season (at least in the first few months) despite putting up a ton of points. There's also something to be said about playing at such a fast pace and managing to avoid serious damage, although the softening of the League may have quite a bit to do with that.

 

[67 others]

I feel like I’m in a Crosby vs. Toews thread from 2013.

That's EXACTLY what this is like lol.

I'll never forget those threads. Folks claiming Toews was better than Crosby because 2 cups and defensive play and a "winners" style got conn smythe vs 1 cup where Malkin was the better player, , Syd was invisible in the finals, etc

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

In terms of ppg relative to his peers, Crosby from 2011-14 had a bigger gap than mcdavid has the last 4 years, its just Crosby missed like 40 percent of his games during that stretch. I think mcdavid does have tougher competition than Crosby had though.

McDavid is better but its pretty close.

 

[Regal]

I think the next two or three years may establish whether McDavid is in another tier or not.

At the very least, he's as good and is having a better career through nine seasons.

He's been back and forth the last four seasons between blowing away the competition in scoring and having a more modest lead over the next best scorers. I think it's unlikely he hits a level we haven't seen from him yet in his tenth season, but I can see him having another very dominant Art Ross win next year. If he does that and then continues to dominate offensively for a while after that, then I think at some point you have to put him in a tier above even if Crosby showed similar ability to dominate for stretches, especially when he was never quite able to put together a supremely dominant season. If he starts to drop off offensively around the time Crosby did, then he'll probably still have a better career if he ages about as well, but there will be less support for the notion that McDavid was a tier better as a player when their careers are done.

Of course, one can then argue that Crosby would have aged better offensively if not for his injuries. But McDavid isn't without his injuries; they just don't seem to have affected him as much. He suffered a serious leg injury in the last game of the 2019 season. I remember reading comments that he wasn't quite himself the next season (at least in the first few months) despite putting up a ton of points. There's also something to be said about playing at such a fast pace and managing to avoid serious damage, although the softening of the League may have quite a bit to do with that.

I agree. I think if he shows that he can dominate for another few seasons then it becomes more of a situation where he’s not only able to sustain his peak over more healthy games but over more years as well.

 

[buffa dud]

This is simple. Want points, highlights, Art Trophies?

Take McDavid

Want leadership, your team performance to level up, Stanley Cups?

Take Crosby.

I swear, when I read this out loud, "leadership" sounds a lot like "goaltending."

 

[Rorschach]

The difference for me is, when the heat is on, Crosby refuses to die and forces himself into another gear. McDavid tends to get his wind knocks out of his sails pretty easily. It's easy to post points against opponents who you are better than, McDavid has the elite skillsets, but when it comes to push to shove, he gets demoralized pretty easily. Crosby's character is what puts him above McDavid and keeps McDavid from winning the Cup. It makes it worse when both wear the C and you lead your troops; what example are you setting if all you can do is not show up when you're needed the most.

I remember when he took less money to reduce his cap hit so the team could afford better role players and Malkin decided to follow suit.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

His pace is highly inflated and he was more likely to score under 130 in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 than actually do it, or score less than the 76 total points in 48 games to keep up that pace in 2012-2013.

Fun facts:

He started with 15 points in his first 13 games of that magical first half of the 2010-2011 season before piling up 50 in his next 25 games. This is proof enough that he wasn’t immune to falling off at any point in the second half. He had a brilliant hot streak juicing that half season PPG that he never ever proved he was capable of sustaining for longer in his career. He should not be given any sort of benefit of doubt here.

He finished 2011-2012 with 25 points in 14 games after returning from injury. You know, when his opponents all played the second half of the prior season, the playoffs, and the first six months of that current season.

He started 2012-2013 with 7 points in 7 games and finished with 11 points in his final 10 games. Again, not immune to lower point totals sandwiched around hot streaks.

The reality is that, despite the allure of what if, he never did it, before or after the injuries. If he was the type of player we’re led to believe he is, he would have scored 120+ in 2013-2014, not finished behind the Benns and Tavares’ of the world, and fended off a sophomore McDavid before bowing out of the scoring race forever, regardless of what happened between 2010-2011 through 2012-2013.

The idea that Crosby was somehow advantaged after missing almost a full year with an injury is ridiculous, I'm guessing you've never suffered a significant injury.

His Shooting % was too high and likely to regress. Best evidence of this is that when he did get healthy, that's exactly what happened.

When he was healthy after the head/spinal injury he was afraid to shoot on his forehand because he didn't want to be cheapshotted again. His playing style changed in the immediate aftermath of that hit, the drop in shooting percentage wasn't just "luck".

 

[Felidae]

His Shooting % was too high and likely to regress. Best evidence of this is that when he did get healthy, that's exactly what happened.

That was the likely outcome, true.

But he also maintained a 17% shooting percentage (just 2% below) over the course of a full season the previous year.

he also maintained that PPG dominance over the course of 3 seperate injured years. The 2 seasons after 2010-11 had no abnormal shooting percentage to explain away his per game dominance over his peers.

The what if with Crosby is very real, we were robbed of seeing how those seasons would have panned out in an 82 game schedule.

 

[Mulletman]

If you give Crosby better health, he'd have at least four Art Ross Trophies. He'd have won in 2011 and 2013 for sure (and in impressive fashion). He would have had a chance in some other years as well. McDavid has actually won five and two of those are the strongest Art Ross wins we've seen this century.

Well you kind of have to give Stamkos elite health as well then and if that's the case Stamkos beats Crosby for the Art Ross and Hart in 2013-14 without getting injured as he was playing the best hockey of his career before the injury. Stamkos also would have a shot at the Rocket in 2016-17 that Crosby won.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

In general, sure, it's a softer era than others, but his competition benefits from that as well.

Perhaps so, but the point of this thread isn't to compare McDavid to his competition, it's to compare McDavid to Crosby. And for many reasons, Crosby had it more difficult during his prime than McDavid did.

 

[bobholly39]

Oh sorry, after witnessing McDavid do multiple things over the past four years that most didn’t think possible, I suppose I’m not as easy going on someone who wasn’t a true generational player.

That's why people don't take your posts seriously.

You can't just have a rational conversation about McDavid without saying ridiculous things about the players you compare him against.

Crosby not generational? He's probably the 4th or 5th most "generational player" in hockey history - and that's only if he's not actually #3.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Mcdavid easily

Smooth brains don’t understand that hockey is a team sport

Let me know when Crosby had to ever drag Darnell Nurse to game 7 of a final

Darnell Nurse would've been by far the best defenseman on the 2017 Penguins.

 

[Felidae]

Darnell Nurse would've been by far the best defenseman on the 2017 Penguins.

That's a crazy thing to say with Letang on the team.

 

[bobholly39]

That's a crazy thing to say with Letang on the team.

Letang was injured and missed the 2017 playoffs. I assume that's what the poster meant, since Letang is obviously better.

 

[Praetorian Caps]

Are we still holding it against mcdavid that the Oilers haven't won a cup with him?

I'm going with McDavid. Crosby has more Championships because he had a more complete team built around him. But basing who is better based solely on the eye test and stats McJesus gets the nod.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Perhaps so, but the point of this thread isn't to compare McDavid to his competition, it's to compare McDavid to Crosby. And for many reasons, Crosby had it more difficult during his prime than McDavid did.

Context is everything.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Dealing with injuries is an inherent part of hockey. Crosby's injuries are not special. His need to adapt his game to avoid additional injuries is in no way rare or different from what every other player has to consider.

 

[Video Nasty]

The idea that Crosby was somehow advantaged after missing almost a full year with an injury is ridiculous, I'm guessing you've never suffered a significant injury.

And the idea that he possessed new superpowers during and after that time isn’t ridiculous?

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Way too simplistic of a way to view it and not all that helpful

How is putting shit in context "simplistic" lol

 

[ManofSteel55]

This is simple. Want points, highlights, Art Trophies?

Take McDavid

Want leadership, your team performance to level up, Stanley Cups?

Take Crosby.

I find it ridiculous that people still think McDavid isn't one of the best leaders in the game. Outright silly.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

How is putting shit in context "simplistic" lol

Tallying ppg finishes and concluding that that alone suggests their career value is the same is simplistic

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Tallying ppg finishes and concluding that that alone suggests their career value is the same is simplistic

I'm pretty sure raw points finishes would be the simplistic take here

Or, for example, "cUpS >>>>>"

 

[K1900L]

The problem with ranking McDavid a tier above Crosby is that this tier belongs to guys like MacKinnon, Draisaitl, Kucherov etc. (at least this is how people usually rank these players), meaning that you'd have to treat Crosby as equivalent to them. And while I believe that playoff-Draisaitl is the only player in the last 25-30 years who can keep up with McDavid (and he statistically is), he doesn't play on this level through the full 90-100 games and hence can't be mentioned as an equal.

Crosby however is (mostly was) a whole different beast. He is the definition of a complete player with a high offensive output and fantastic leading skills. And while McDavid is more electric and talented offensively, Crosby was the more complete player while simultaneously putting up similar numbers (in a lower scoring era).

There is no tier between Crosby and McDavid, at least in my opinion. Crosby should rank somewhere between those two tiers, but closer to McDavid.