Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[BlueSeal]

The difference for me is, when the heat is on, Crosby refuses to die and forces himself into another gear. McDavid tends to get his wind knocks out of his sails pretty easily. It's easy to post points against opponents who you are better than, McDavid has the elite skillsets, but when it comes to push to shove, he gets demoralized pretty easily. Crosby's character is what puts him above McDavid and keeps McDavid from winning the Cup. It makes it worse when both wear the C and you lead your troops; what example are you setting if all you can do is not show up when you're needed the most.

 

[thaman8765678]

Crosby plays defense and doesn't care about the points and ice time. That is why he is a champion and Connor isn't.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Not saying that McDavid isn't better (he is), but raw points ren't totally comparable, if you play in much higher scoring era (some might counter that current era is simply better, so numbers are higher, but... I'm somehow not convinced that this year's JT Miller, or last year Ryan Nugent Hopkins would ran away with Art Ross in 2015, and that's the conclusion if you compare raw numbers...).

I agree raw points don't always tell it all, but the whole story does show McDavid individually dominating on a level Crosby never has either way.

In Crosby's 10th year - Voracek, Hudler, and Foligno finished 3 to 11 points behind him, and Benn literally beat him (and won arguably the weakest Art Ross in modern history). The following year (Crosby's 11th), Benn beat him again, which most people forget. Today's version of JT Miller today would abolutely be in that mix, even though he's not against McDavid. In the two Art Ross wins by Crosby, he beat 2nd place by 6 and 14 points. Connor has won it by 11, 6, 21, 8, and 24 points. Even if you use percentage, it's still in favor of McDavid's peak by a healthy margin. There's not many stats Crosby has over McDavid, regardless of how you slice it.

If we go by trophies instead of raw numbers:
McDavid has played 719 total NHL games (9yrs) and has 14 major trophies to show for it.
Crosby after 727 games (10yrs) had 9 trophies - 1 of which was a cup. He has as many as McDavid currently but has played more than twice the games to this point.

Crosby just wasn't nearly as dominant as people remember (in comparison to McDavid). He only ever did it in small sample sizes when he was plagued by injuries. The 'what if' outweighs actual results for some people, which is why some (not most) have Mario ahead of Wayne for example. That's a stance I disagree with, even though I love Mario, and prefered his style over Wayne.

I honestly think a big factor in all this is the soft spot people have for Sid, which is similar to nostagia in a way. The guy is an absolute legend and one of the best to ever do it. Once his injury concerns were behind him (2014+), he became/evolved into the first truly 'generational player' since Lemieux (drafted in 1984) to not be a disappointment in some capacity. Before him, Daigle busted (relatively), and Lindros barely had a healthy career at all. People have a soft spot for Sid for good reason. It just so happens that someone better came along, and it's hard to admit for some people old enough to rememeber Pittsburgh drafting 'the kid'. It also took 21yrs (Mario draft to Sid draft) for someone to earn the torch, where as it's only been 10yrs from Sid to Connor. It feels too soon for many. It should have been Sid's torch for longer than he was able to hold on to it, whcih feels like a slight towards a guy who's earned it. Unfair as it kight be - McDavid has also earned it and then some.

If we're talking careers - they both have 14 trophies but 3 of Crosby's are cups. I'd rather have that trophy case in the end, but Crosby is a lot closer to his end, than McDavid is. Whatever gap is left, McDavid is closing at an insane pace. I think his peak/prime is a tier above Crosby's, which is why i voted option 1. If the question was about careers as a whole - then Corsby's is sightly better but time is on McDavid's side as he's build himself a comfortable lead up to this point in their careers.

FWIW- I am old enough to have lived through the Daigle+ generational drafts, but not the Lemieux one.

 

[Dr Salt]

Bedard

 

[KevinRedkey]

Crosby plays defense and doesn't care about the points and ice time. That is why he is a champion and Connor isn't.

Revisionist history 101.... which is a common thing regarding Sid. So, lets take a look at the Selke votes after each of their first 9 seasons:

Player A (12 total votes over 9 years):
1st place: 0
2nd: 1
3rd: 3
4th: 5
5th: 3

Player B (10 total votes over 9 years):
1st place: 1
2nd: 0
3rd: 2
4th: 3
5th: 4

For reference, Radek Faksa had more Selke votes in 2017-18 alone than Crosby and McDavid combined for in their first 9 years in the league and he (Faksa) finished 7th. As you can see - neither had the reputation for being great defensively by any stretch of the imagination. The moment Crosby was no longer a threat for the Art Ross, is the moment people started claiming he had been some great defensive player all along. Funny thing is he had already won a cup by then, and people act as though he won all 3 as some Selke candidate. It's flat out wrong.

While Crosby has grown to become a good defensive player over time- It's a common (and easily disprovable) misconception to suggest he's been that for his entire career.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Revisionist history 101.... which is a common thing regarding Sid. So, lets take a look at the Selke votes after each of their first 9 seasons:

Player A (12 total votes over 9 years):
1st place: 0
2nd: 1
3rd: 3
4th: 5
5th: 3

Player B (10 total votes over 9 years):
1st place: 1
2nd: 0
3rd: 2
4th: 3
5th: 4

For reference, Radek Faksa had more Selke votes in 2017-18 alone than Crosby and McDavid combined for in their first 9 years in the league and he (Faksa) finished 7th. As you can see - neither had the reputation for being great defensively by any stretch of the imagination. The moment Crosby was no longer a threat for the Art Ross, is the moment people started claiming he had been some great defensive player all along. Funny thing is he had already won a cup by then, and people act as though he won all 3 as some Selke candidate. It's flat out wrong.

While Crosby has grown to become a good defensive player over time- It's a common (and easily disprovable) misconception to suggest he's been that for his entire career.

This is false, stop gaslighting people.

 

[Miro4Norris]

Right now? Yes. Career? No.


Crosby who was not the best player on his team in any of his 3 cups, yeah.

Imagine if McDavid had that luxury.

2 Conn Smythes disagree with you. Watch games next time maybe. Saying that he wasn't the best player of 2017 team can just be translated to "I'm a hater". 2016, 3-way tie between Crosby, Kessel, Letang.

2009, Sid was considered as mvp after 3 rounds, then Malkin was more efficient in finals as Sid was matched up with the all-time shutdown combination of Lidström, Zetterberg, Hossa, (Datsyuk). Yeah imagine, It was similar to pretty much every Mcdavid's playoffs years, where Draisaitl has been the mvp in approximately half of the series.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Went with the middle option. McDavid is slightly better, but they belong in the same tier for now.

If McDavid keeps this up for multiple seasons then it gets interesting though.

 

[Video Nasty]

The difference for me is, when the heat is on, Crosby refuses to die and forces himself into another gear. McDavid tends to get his wind knocks out of his sails pretty easily. It's easy to post points against opponents who you are better than, McDavid has the elite skillsets, but when it comes to push to shove, he gets demoralized pretty easily. Crosby's character is what puts him above McDavid and keeps McDavid from winning the Cup. It makes it worse when both wear the C and you lead your troops; what example are you setting if all you can do is not show up when you're needed the most.

Crosby plays defense and doesn't care about the points and ice time. That is why he is a champion and Connor isn't.

Refuses to die? Doesn’t care about ice time?

Yeah, I suppose those are a couple of ways to describe exiting Game 7 early during his team’s first Cup win.

I think lack of quality opponents covers the rest (beating 6 and 7 seeds from the West while scoring a whopping one goal).

McDavid is already better than Crosby ever could have been. Give him 2-3 more seasons and this comparison favors him in a landslide, let alone the massacre another 10 will provide.

 

[thaman8765678]

Refuses to die? Doesn’t care about ice time?

Yeah, I suppose those are a couple of ways to describe exiting Game 7 early during his team’s first Cup win.

I think lack of quality opponents covers the rest (beating 6 and 7 seeds from the West while scoring a whopping one goal).

It isn't about points for Crosby. It may be difficult to understand as an Oilers fan, but there is more to hockey than offense.

McDavid scores a lot of points, but he is not willing to do the little things that make a cup winner.

 

[crowfish]

It isn't about points for Crosby. It may be difficult to understand as an Oilers fan, but there is more to hockey than offense.

McDavid scores a lot of points, but he is not willing to do the little things that make a cup winner.

Are you seriously implying that the guy with the 3rd best production in playoff history, HE is the reason why his team hasn't won? There could quite literally be thousands of reasons why the Oilers haven't won the Cup since 2015, but you think McDavids "not doing the little things" is the primary reason?

McDavid was just on the losing side of game 7. The game was lost by 1-goal. McDavid was sitting on the bench when Skinner let in the soft game winning goal. Everyone knows game 7s are low-scoring, nothing is going to get called. Letting in a soft goal is the kiss of death. Big things like that are why you win or lose, not the "little things" in Connor McDavid's game.

 

[crowfish]

Imagine if reality worked as simple as the casuals describe it with their terrible cliched takes.

The coach could just tap McDavid on the back and explain to him that if he does the "little things", he can achieve lifelong goals for himself and his teammates. They could be legends! But only if McDavid decies to ever backcheck. Does he not know this? Or does he know and he is just really selfish? He refuses to sacrifice his points for a Stanley Cup. A real leader would stop scoring so much so his team could win! Just like Sid!

 

[bobholly39]

Voted option 2.

They're definitely similar tier players. Just one year ago majority of HF'ers said they'd draft Crosby over McDavid in a re-draft.

Will McDavid have a better career? Yes, it seems he absolutely will. He hasn't yet - but is close,, and due to Crosby's injuries he should definitely pass him

If both players were fully healthy in a similar era does McDavid outscore Crosby? Again - I believe the answer is probably yes, but it's also very, very close. So 'slightly better' for McDavid.

 

[Video Nasty]

It isn't about points for Crosby. It may be difficult to understand as an Oilers fan, but there is more to hockey than offense.

McDavid scores a lot of points, but he is not willing to do the little things that make a cup winner.

Cool. How does that cover my points about not playing most of Game 7 of his first Cup win or much inferior opponents in 2016 and 2017? The Penguins won Game 7 mostly with him sitting on the bench, yet this guy gets labeled as some Game 7 guru that you need to have. Give me a break.

 

[CanadienShark]

Yes. At best Crosby is a half step behind. McDavid is another tier to me though.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Mcdavid also has the luxury of playing in an era with very little contact which is huge for wear and tear and injury’s.

One of the many Era-related advantages that McDavid has compared to Crosby.

 

[Felidae]

McDavid does things Crosby could never do.

Well yeah, but same can be said the other way around..

McDavid doesn't have Crosby's puck protection, hand eye coordination, or backhand shot.

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Well yeah, but same can be said the other way around..

McDavid doesn't have Crosby's puck protection, hand eye coordination, or backhand shot.

I’m glad someone’s arguing real attributes that Crosby has over mcdavid rather than regurgitating the Crosby selke level defense his entire career myth. This is nice to see

 

[psycat]

One clear tier above in my world. McDavid for me is the best player offensively since 66/99 in their heyday.

Crosby for me is the Lidström of forwards. Great concistent career but not clearly above other top players year to year. Obviously nothing to scoff at and arguably a top 10 player of all time but McDavid will be a shoe-in for that, if not higher, with a handful of more seasons.

 

[Russian_fanatic]

McDavid is definitely more skilled, and he can take over games like no one else, but Crosby has that 'it' factor about him. I don't know who said it but someone said Crosby plays like a 3rd line grinder who has been given a hall of fame level skillset + IQ. When the game gets tougher and more physical, he actually gets better. I haven't seen that from McDavid.

His ability to adapt to different roles in honestly GOAT tier. Need a shut down center? No problem. Need a sniper? Got it. Need a playmaker who can get his team going? Probably his best attribute. On top of that he's an amazing leader and one of the most clutch faceoff guys in NHL history. If you're choosing McDavid over Crosby, I have no problem with it... But if you're saying McDavid>Crosby because points + awards, that's something I can't get behind.

I choose Crosby over McDavid, because I'm getting a guy who can do all the little things + intangibles, plus compete for the Art Ross, and his clutch ability to me is unmatched.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

This is simple. Want points, highlights, Art Trophies?

Take McDavid

Want leadership, your team performance to level up, Stanley Cups?

Take Crosby.

I would have agreed with this until Mcdavid just had one of the best play off performances ever, he single handedly took over games and dominated

So yes McDavid is above Crosby its not even a debate at this point.

 

[LeafGrief]

I don't know that you can put anybody other than Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr in a tier above Crosby. McDavid is the "otherworldly" scorer, but Crosby battled a lot of injuries and played through some down-scoring years. I'd buy the argument that McDavid is the better player of the two, he's certainly got the technical skills, but Crosby's greatest weapon was always that he had the unstoppable drive train. Not only would he beat you with skill, he would also outwork your entire team. The sort of player that you just never, never, bet against.

"Winning" is a tough intangible to discuss, it often gets parsed out into other factors like leadership, but with Sid it's more about guts and the willingness to go through a wall to win a puck battle six minutes into the second period of game 47 on the schedule. Ultimately, Crosby has just always had the "it" factor for winning, which McDavid just hasn't shown yet. Crosby has generally played on better teams than McDavid's Oilers, but those last two Pens cup wins had weak defensive groups and an unproven Murray in net, which isn't dissimilar to this year's Oilers. Crosby lost his first finals to the Red Wings, so whether McDavid can follow that trajectory and win some in the coming years will remain to be seen.

If McDavid can bring that team success, show that winning "it" factor that the all-time greats have, then he'll be considered in a tier above Crosby, and put himself into conversations with the pantheon. He is the more offensively gifted and technically proficient player after all. But for now, Crosby's peak and impact as a player is enough that I'll call them the same tier. Good luck to McDavid, Crosby is a worthwhile gatekeeper.

It's funny, the more that time goes on the more I realize I'm a full-on Crosby stan.

 

[DitchMarner]

One of the many Era-related advantages that McDavid has compared to Crosby.

He's gotten injured.





In general, sure, it's a softer era than others, but his competition benefits from that as well.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Crosby for sure

 

[KevinRedkey]

This is false, stop gaslighting people.

Which verifiable fact did I list that you believe is false? Lmao