Is Cale Makar a generational talent?

[The Abusement Park]

Also, why is he named like a vegetable?

What we can say is that he’s at the very minimum, is a generational vegetable.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

What about Makar’s first two seasons doesn’t ‘stand out’?

8th in Norris voting as a rookie. 2nd in Norris voting in year two. Best point per game total by a defenceman in their first 100 games in the cap era. Currently 7th all-time in playoff points per game through his first 35 postseason games.

This is some special stuff. Talking like he’s nowhere near Karlsson is just silly.

35 and 100 games, looool.

Dahlin just got the most points EVER as an NHL defensemen in scoring in their teens. Heiskanan LEAD HIS TEAM IN POINTS going near PPG as a 20 year old defensemen all the way to the cup finals and he's better defensively than Makar.

Makar hasn't even truly stood out that much against his peers, let alone generationally. Smh. The bar has been set really low apparently. Makar is clear cut top 3-5 defender in the league and he's a franchise defender. People seem to forget that there are a handful of generational talents, or less, in 20-30 year span; hence the word, generational. It's extremely hard to do/be.

Generational also means longevity. If we talking prime, one can argument Tim Thomas generational because of his unbelievable peak or few year performances, it's about a good amount of prime of domination relative to peers. Makar doesn't even have a Norris lool.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

35 and 100 games, looool.

Dahlin just got the most points EVER as an NHL defensemen in scoring in their teens. Heiskanan LEAD HIS TEAM IN POINTS going near PPG as a 20 year old defensemen all the way to the cup finals and he's better defensively than Makar.

Makar hasn't even truly stood out that much against his peers, let alone generationally. Smh. The bar has been set really low apparently. Makar is clear cut top 3-5 defender in the league and he's a franchise defender. People seem to forget that there are a handful of generational talents, or less, in 20-30 year span; hence the word, generational. It's extremely hard to do/be.

Generational also means longevity. If we talking prime, one can argument Tim Thomas generational because of his unbelievable peak or few year performances, it's about a good amount of prime of domination relative to peers. Makar doesn't even have a Norris lool.

I mean it’s what we have to work with in shortened seasons. 35 games is over halfway to Karlsson’s lengthy playoff resume of 67 games

I never said he was a generational defender. Way too early. The only thing I’m saying is, Makar could have a Karlsson like career. It’s certainly possible. Karlsson’s really only a borderline generational defenceman at this point anyways. Hedman’s probably passed him at this point.

 

[Yog S'loth]

Every time I see one of these "Is XXX a generational talent?" threads, my eyeball gets all twitchy and I have to keep reminding myself that I'm never going back to that place again, not ever, they'll have to kill me first, and then I put the scissors back down and watch videos of babies laughing on YouTube.

 

[innitfam]

Milbury
McGuire

 

[a mangy Meowth]

The only thing I’m saying is, Makar could have a Karlsson like career. It’s certainly possible. Karlsson’s really only a borderline generational defenceman at this point anyways.

I'd hope he has a much better career than Karlsson, who by the way is absolutely not borderline generational or even close.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Much like Ovechkin/Sid, sometimes they are born within years of each other. From Howe to Orr was a 20 year gap with nobody. & lets just say McDavid plays polo for a living and doesn't care for hockey, we'd be at almost 20 years now since Sid/Ovy came into the league with no generational players since.

Nobody!?? Lol- you just yada yada'd one of the greatest goal scorers ever. Bobby Hull scored over 900 goals as a pro. If you want to completely discount the whl, pretend he retired say...he scored 600 and left the nhl while he was still one of the best goal scorers in the league. He put up the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th... 50 goal seasons in history, at a time when nobody else was doing it (obviously).

 

[The Abusement Park]

I'd hope he has a much better career than Karlsson, who by the way is absolutely not borderline generational or even close.

Karlssons peak was absolutely on the brink of being generational?

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Karlssons peak was absolutely on the brink of being generational?

Not sure I really agree, but anyways that's not the point I'm disputing. You stated that 'Karlsson's really only a borderline generational Dman' which is a statement I don't agree with. Maybe if that part of his career had lasted longer..

 

[wintersej]

Are you intending on putting Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey on the same level as defensemen? If so, that is extremely wrong.

I think his point is that Coffey is a tier below Bourque and Makar isn’t at the Coffey level.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Not sure I really agree, but anyways that's not the point I'm disputing. You stated that 'Karlsson's really only a borderline generational Dman' which is a statement I don't agree with. Maybe if that part of his career had lasted longer..

If Makar has the career of Karlsson minus the injuries that would be incredible for the Avs. I think overall you’re underrating how good Karlsson was at his peak.

 

[wetcoast]

Makar unbelievable but he has been very fortunate to come into league straight into contender with top 3 hockey player and amazing depth. Not willing to give him any title such as the above without a Norris or two and a serious leading playoff contribution in the next 3 years. Anything less is not generational.

For example, 2 years ago he had 15 points in 15 playoff games. But that was good for 5th on the team; puts things into perspective. Nothing like EK's 2017 carry.



This is completely misinformed.

Makar is 22, tied for 4th in scoring on his team last year playing on a cup favourite. Karlsson already had a Norris at 21(youngest ever alongside Orr) and was 2nd on his team in points with huge gap with 3rd place playing on middling team.

Don't compare Makar to EK yet, they no where near the same level for now when compared to EK's prime. Talk to me when he has a Norris.

You are right EK won a Norris by a much smaller margin than Makar lost his this past season.

Makar has a better resume at the same age, time will tell were he ends up.

 

[wetcoast]

Karlssons peak was absolutely on the brink of being generational?

Not really if one looks closely at it.

He had a great peak but won his first Norris by a mere 12 voting points, one of the closest races ever without looking then his second Norris it wasn't as close but Doughty in second place had 9 more first place votes that year.

I mean it's a good run but playoffs were okay and then his one outstanding postseason.

For the 2010's he is in the mix for best Dman along with Keith and Doughty.

Throw in the early slow start and falling off the cliff lately and his light appears less bright.

 

[Rubi]

Would love to have him on his home town team

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Not really if one looks closely at it.

He had a great peak but won his first Norris by a mere 12 voting points, one of the closest races ever without looking then his second Norris it wasn't as close but Doughty in second place had 9 more first place votes that year.

I mean it's a good run but playoffs were okay and then his one outstanding postseason.

For the 2010's he is in the mix for best Dman along with Keith and Doughty.

Throw in the early slow start and falling off the cliff lately and his light appears less bright.

I think that whole generation of D-men is a fascinating debate.

Karlsson had the best peak imo, but overall I’d probably only confidently rate him ahead of Doughty.

Hedman and Keith both have the championships and lengthy great careers. Perhaps if Karlsson has a resurgence that puts him on top.

Brent Burns is kind of underrated in that group too. I don’t think he’s too terribly far back of the others.

 

[KidLine93]

Hes 4 years post draft and hasn't won a Norris. He's great and probably on track to be the best defenseman in the league through the prime of his career, but has a lot to prove before being declared "generational"

 

[KidLine93]

Quick name the Dmen in the NHL who had a better start to their first 2 NHL season or first 3 years in the playoffs or by age 22?

fox has a norris in his first 2 seasons. Heiskanen had 26 points in a 27 game playoff run to the cup finals.

 

[KidLine93]

Tell me you haven’t watched Cale Makar, without actually telling me you haven’t watched Cale Makar.

He did struggle with Dallas and Vegas in his own end. He's young though. But he doesn't thrive when the game gets heavy. Thats not a knock on him, but we see guys like Hedman where they can play in all situations and all types of games. Makar still needs to develop that and separate himself from guys like Fox/McAvoy to be considered generational. Then prove he can control the game better than guys like Hedman did in their prime. People are trying to hand out the generational tag like candy now. Every draft we have a new generational player it seems. He has the talent to do it but he hasn't taken the torch and ran away with it like McDavid did. Makar is 4 full seasons post draft its not like hes 20 years old. Hes gonna be 23 this season.

 

[ponder]

I think “best offensive dman since Karlsson” is fair, but that’s not necessarily a generational talent. I’ll say he’s got a chance to be one, but it’s a slim chance, and he’s got a lot to prove first.

If we look at the top dmen of the past ~10-15 years, it’s guys like Doughty, Keith, Karlsson, Hedman, Weber and Chara. There’s no way you can say that Makar is already a tier above the guys, and he really hasn’t done enough (yet) to be considered on their level

 

[3rd Line]

Criticizing Cale Makar is uncomfortable because – let’s face it – everyone would want him on their team. But since this thread poses that this young D-man is a Generational Talent - the invitation for criticism is opened up.

It appears to be widely accepted that Cale’s strong suit is far and away his offensive skills and that his defense is somewhat lacking or TBD. And while I do not subscribe to the simple dismissal of the defensive element of any D-man’s game, it has also become widely accepted that offensive skill gets most of the hype when rating D-men. So I will make my main point in the offensive perspective.

So just isolating Cale’s offensive performance, I do not even regard that component as generational. While it is impressive, I feel that his productivity is greatly enhanced by playing with #29. And the numbers below show that he gets quite a lot of opportunity to be on the ice with #29.

If anything, it’s Nathan MacKinnon who is the generational talent. Any experienced hockey fan has to admit it: when Nate steps on the ice – you always know it. Any opposing fan can just visualize him circling in a breakout (without the puck) and thinking “uh oh.” I have been watching NHL hockey for 54 years. And until Nate came along, I cannot say this about single player since Bobby Orr. Now that is generational! (Getzky was generational – but not at the “notice-level” of Nate due to speed)

So guess what folks? We fans are not the only ones noticing Nate when he is out there – so are the opposing players - who devote disproportionate attention to stopping him. Whereby, in addition to statistically benefitting from being on the ice and participating in Nate’s offensive productivity, his teammates are also the benefactors of more time-and-space – especially in the O-Zone.

And what better candidate to benefit from that time-and-space than a mobile and offensively gifted D-man like Cale Makar. If you think that folks would be debating whether he was a generational talent if he played for Buffalo (sorry for the dis) – I think you’re kidding yourself.

So I did a little research into last season and wish to share the following items to support my comments above:
In Cale’s 54 games (Regular Season + Playoffs):
Cale scored 54 points and Nate was on-ice for 35 of those points
Cale scored 28 Power Play points and Nate was on-ice for 24 of those points
BY THE WAY: that means 44% of Cale’s points come on the PP with Nate – where there is even more time-and-space
Cale was on-ice during 64 Avalanche Even Strength Goals – and Nate was on for 35 of them
Cale was on-ice during 40 Avalanche Power Play Goals – and Nate was on for 35 of those, as well
Offensively speaking, the 2 of them are very much a package.

Finally, abandoning the “MacKinnon Connection” and looking quickly at defensive responsibility - Cale was +17 in his 54 games last season. Not bad, but in the 32 of those games against the Big 3 (Vegas, St.Louis, Minn), Cale was only +4 (including Even for the 10 Playoff games). In contrast, he was a +13 in only 22 games against the Division’s weaker teams last season (LA, ANA, SJ, ARIZ). In other words, that’s +0.125 per game against the Big 3 and +0.59 per game against the weaker teams. That’s almost 5 times less effective against better teams. We all know that +/- is not a flawless statistic; but these numbers do tell a story….a story that ends with a team besides Colorado hoisting the Cup.
In conclusion, I raise serious doubts that Cale is a generational talent D-man when his offensive game is so dependent upon Nathan and his full game (offense + defense) is so-so against the better teams.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

It’s worth watching Makar’s shifts with the Avs 4th line for those that think he’s dependent on anyone else to tilt the ice and produce offence.

Makar was on the ice for a higher rate of goals at 5v5 with Pierre Edouard Bellemare, than he was with Nathan MacKinnon. He also had a higher expected goals for % while playing with Bellemare.

I’m not even sure MacKinnon and Makar have that great of chemistry together. When they play together, one of them has the puck less, which gives them less opportunity to break down the defence with their skating.

Opposing fans bases are going to be slower to pick up on this, but Makar is a rarer talent than MacKinnon.

 

[BlueSeal]

Serious question - was Bobby Orr a shutdown defender? I only know about his offense, but know little about his defense.

No.

 

[3rd Line]

It’s worth watching Makar’s shifts with the Avs 4th line for those that think he’s dependent on anyone else to tilt the ice and produce offence.

Makar was on the ice for a higher rate of goals at 5v5 with Pierre Edouard Bellemare, than he was with Nathan MacKinnon. He also had a higher expected goals for % while playing with Bellemare.

I’m not even sure MacKinnon and Makar have that great of chemistry together. When they play together, one of them has the puck less, which gives them less opportunity to break down the defence with their skating.

Opposing fans bases are going to be slower to pick up on this, but Makar is a rarer talent than MacKinnon.

 

[JLo217]

Makar is a dynamic defensemen.

But let's wait until he wins a Norris or two before he is considered at this level?

To me, his trajectory is like Erik Karlsson right now. I considered Karlsson the best in the world for many years and I think Karlsson is a Hall of Famer.

But Makar isn't Bobby Orr. He isn't even Raymond Bourque. Neither was Karlsson.

As much as this may go against popular opinion, Makar IS NOT the perfect defenseman.

He is small and can get overpowered against bigger and stronger forwards.

I have seen it happen in the playoffs whenever Makar faces teams with bigger forwards and stronger forechecks.

He can obviously improve since he is so young.

But his lack of size and physical strength is something he will have to find a way to compensate for if he ever should be considered amongst the "generational class".

Makar is starting to become over-rated by fans and the media, and that is unfair for him considering how young he is. People are rating him as the best thing since Orr, and he isn't that. Not yet, at least.

Let things play out before anointing him with such hype and status.

There is so much wrong in this post. It just shows how little you watch him play.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

I can see where the generational talent argument comes into play. Whether he becomes a titan of the sport remains to be seen, but his skating ability, combined with his flair, makes him a unique player.

Also, while he needs to improve his strength and positioning at times defensively, he isn't some awful player in his own zone. He generally does a very good job of clear the zone and does an excellent job at suppressing possession from the other team.