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Is Anton Stralman in a Tenuous Spot with Rangers?

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I don't completely understand the Corsi ratings, so maybe this is improper for me to say, but I don't know about judging players solely based on new stats. Am I supposed to think Stralman is better than Staal because of a stat I don't understand? If someone can explain it to me, maybe. I know it's based on puck possession. I could probably google it and read about it, but just from watching them play, I think Staal is better than Stralman. Staal has elite reach, he always looks like he's gonna get beat on a play but then his stick makes a play somehow. The guy is a legitimate top pairing defenseman. Stralman has been excellent with us, a rock back there. But we just picked him up off waivers and he's had 1 excellent season and 1 good one. I don't know, perhaps the new stats are indicative of him being better than Staal, but like I say with the baseball statistics, it doesn't tell the entire story.

What's the famous quote? Statistics are like bikinis, they show a lot, but not everything.
 
jerseyjinx94 said:
I don't completely understand the Corsi ratings, so maybe this is improper for me to say, but I don't know about judging players solely based on new stats. Am I supposed to think Stralman is better than Staal because of a stat I don't understand? If someone can explain it to me, maybe. I know it's based on puck possession. I could probably google it and read about it, but just from watching them play, I think Staal is better than Stralman. Staal has elite reach, he always looks like he's gonna get beat on a play but then his stick makes a play somehow. The guy is a legitimate top pairing defenseman. Stralman has been excellent with us, a rock back there. But we just picked him up off waivers and he's had 1 excellent season and 1 good one. I don't know, perhaps the new stats are indicative of him being better than Staal, but like I say with the baseball statistics, it doesn't tell the entire story.

What's the famous quote? Statistics are like bikinis, they show a lot, but not everything.
Click to expand...

As far as stralman vs. staal and their possession ratings, this article may help you get the gist of it.

http://savebyrichter.com/just-how-good-is-anton-stralman-spoiler-really-good/
 
Cake or Death said:
Really, he owes the Rangers no such thing. The team left many players in the air and if a UFA does not know what the team truly intends to do, they are free to do what they want and owe the team zero. There is no need for any player to risk losing a potential signing elsewhere when their existing team hasn't (1) committed to them and (2) seems to be waiting till July 1st to apparently test waters. That's a risk the team takes and the player has every right to do as he sees fit.
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Stralman was a garbage-nobody, plucked off the scrap heap.

The Rangers have been absolutely committed to him. While I agree he can do whatever he wants, if he likes it in NY and the offer is competitive, then he should give the Rangers the opportunity to sign him.

Just because they didn't negotiate during the season doesn't mean the team doesn't want him.

And I never said he should turn down a contract elsewhere. I said if he gets an offer, he should see if the Rangers would match. If not he can sign elsewhere.

It's a gentlemen agreement most agents recommend unless the player is absolutely miserable with his current team.
 
GWOW said:
Stralman was a garbage-nobody, plucked off the scrap heap.

The Rangers have been absolutely committed to him. While I agree he can do whatever he wants, if he likes it in NY and the offer is competitive, then he should give the Rangers the opportunity to sign him.
Click to expand...

What does it matter what he was in the past? He is not negotiating right now on his past, he is negotiating on his recent performance and what teams think he can offer and is worth to them going forward.

GWOW said:
Just because they didn't negotiate during the season doesn't mean the team doesn't want him.

And I never said he should turn down a contract elsewhere. I said if he gets an offer, he should see if the Rangers would match. If not he can sign elsewhere.

It's a gentlemen agreement most agents recommend unless the player is absolutely miserable with his current team.
Click to expand...

What are you basing this on? Do you know enough agents first hand to say what the majority of them privately recommend to the players they represent? My observation is this is a business, and teams and players do what is best for them. The multiple CBA disruptions more or less drove that home.

Look, I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but Stralman made less over his entire combined 8 year career than Brad Richards made this season alone. This is guy's optimal chance to get a really good pay day, and control where he ends up and his term length. If that is with our squad, so be it, but I will not hold it against him at all or be the least bit surprised if he moves on.
 
Cake or Death said:
What does it matter what he was in the past? He is not negotiating right now on his past, he is negotiating on his recent performance and what teams think he can offer and is worth to them going forward.



What are you basing this on? Do you know enough agents first hand to say what the majority of them privately recommend to the players they represent? My observation is this is a business, and teams and players do what is best for them. The multiple CBA disruptions more or less drove that home.

Look, I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but Stralman made less over his entire combined 8 year career than Brad Richards made this season alone. This is guy's optimal chance to get a really good pay day, and control where he ends up and his term length. If that is with our squad, so be it, but I will not hold it against him at all or be the least bit surprised if he moves on.
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All this has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If Stralman wants to stay in NY, he gives the Rangers the chance to match or go higher.

It's rare that a UFA signs a deal with a new team without giving his last team the chance to match. That is, if he's happy with the team and there isn't animosity.
 
GWOW said:
All this has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If Stralman wants to stay in NY, he gives the Rangers the chance to match or go higher.

It's rare that a UFA signs a deal with a new team without giving his last team the chance to match. That is, if he's happy with the team and there isn't animosity.
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Not sure what you're looking at. My questions were directly asked to what you said. I asked, "What does it matter what he was in the past?" in response to your comment, "Stralman was a garbage-nobody, plucked off the scrap heap." And I asked, "What are you basing this on? Do you know enough agents first hand to say what the majority of them privately recommend to the players they represent?" based on your comment, "It's a gentlemen agreement most agents recommend unless the player is absolutely miserable with his current team."

My questions cannot be much more direct to your comments than that. Anyway, we have different opinions and different observations on the matter, which is fine. I will simply respectfully disagree.
 
GWOW said:
Stralman was a garbage-nobody, plucked off the scrap heap.

The Rangers have been absolutely committed to him. While I agree he can do whatever he wants, if he likes it in NY and the offer is competitive, then he should give the Rangers the opportunity to sign him.

Just because they didn't negotiate during the season doesn't mean the team doesn't want him.

And I never said he should turn down a contract elsewhere. I said if he gets an offer, he should see if the Rangers would match. If not he can sign elsewhere.

It's a gentlemen agreement most agents recommend unless the player is absolutely miserable with his current team.
Click to expand...

Supposedly the Rangers offered a 3-year, $9MM extension prior to the Olympics. Supposedly, of course. I agree he should see if the Rangers will match, although I believe there have been instances in which the team gives a firm number and the player doesn't go back to match. It can get ugly out there. If they did offer $3MM per, it's an interesting try since they had Klein at $2.9MM. Either they think Klein is grossly overpaid or just tried to throw something at Stralman, which may not bode well for what they're thinking in terms of numbers at this point.
 
jerseyjinx94 said:
I don't completely understand the Corsi ratings, so maybe this is improper for me to say, but I don't know about judging players solely based on new stats. Am I supposed to think Stralman is better than Staal because of a stat I don't understand? If someone can explain it to me, maybe. I know it's based on puck possession. I could probably google it and read about it, but just from watching them play, I think Staal is better than Stralman. Staal has elite reach, he always looks like he's gonna get beat on a play but then his stick makes a play somehow. The guy is a legitimate top pairing defenseman. Stralman has been excellent with us, a rock back there. But we just picked him up off waivers and he's had 1 excellent season and 1 good one. I don't know, perhaps the new stats are indicative of him being better than Staal, but like I say with the baseball statistics, it doesn't tell the entire story.

What's the famous quote? Statistics are like bikinis, they show a lot, but not everything.
Click to expand...

Stralman is quite good at moving the puck once he gets it, for the most part. However I think his stats aren't really telling the whole story either, he has his flaws and IMO doesn't realllly move the puck as well as you'd expect for a guy who is such a fancy stats darling. I get the feeling something is going on that isn't readily apparent just by stats watching. He probably should be re-signed but if some team signs him to be a top pairing guy they're going to be disappointed IMO. The role he's playing with the Rangers is about perfect for him.

Also, I suspect Staal is getting some **** because ******* he was injured for like 2 years running and always in the process of trying to come back from a major injury and now might not ever get to that point, but back before that he was also a fancy stats darling.
 
Levitate said:
Stralman is quite good at moving the puck once he gets it, for the most part. However I think his stats aren't really telling the whole story either, he has his flaws and IMO doesn't realllly move the puck as well as you'd expect for a guy who is such a fancy stats darling. I get the feeling something is going on that isn't readily apparent just by stats watching. He probably should be re-signed but if some team signs him to be a top pairing guy they're going to be disappointed IMO. The role he's playing with the Rangers is about perfect for him.

Also, I suspect Staal is getting some **** because ******* he was injured for like 2 years running and always in the process of trying to come back from a major injury and now might not ever get to that point, but back before that he was also a fancy stats darling.
Click to expand...

Or, Staal has finally recovered from those injuries and is poised for a very good 2014-2015 campaign, if with the Rangers.
 
Levitate said:
Stralman is quite good at moving the puck once he gets it, for the most part. However I think his stats aren't really telling the whole story either, he has his flaws and IMO doesn't realllly move the puck as well as you'd expect for a guy who is such a fancy stats darling. I get the feeling something is going on that isn't readily apparent just by stats watching. He probably should be re-signed but if some team signs him to be a top pairing guy they're going to be disappointed IMO. The role he's playing with the Rangers is about perfect for him.

Also, I suspect Staal is getting some **** because ******* he was injured for like 2 years running and always in the process of trying to come back from a major injury and now might not ever get to that point, but back before that he was also a fancy stats darling.
Click to expand...

Strålman's elite possession stats actually come from shot suppression, not shot generation, which is surprising considering that he is a small, skilled defenceman. A good breakout is likely part of that, i.e. not getting hemmed in your own zone, but I think a big part of his game is neutral zone D. He is likely good at forcing dump-ins and breaking up plays before they even reach the Rangers' zone, while a guy like Girardi likely allows a ton of carry-in's (his breakouts are usually terrible as well though). Looking deep into the numbers Strålman and Girardi generate about as many shot attempts for vs expectation (slight edge to Strålman, both players are positive) but Strålman blows Girardi out of the water in shot attempt suppression vs expectation.

I think NZ defence is usually the #1 reason where eye-test and stats differ when evaluating defencemen as it is subtle and not usually something you look for. Andrew MacDonald looks like a good defenceman in most aspects, yet has some of the worst fancystats in the league - because he has no idea how to defend in the NZ and opponents are allowed to carry in the puck at will.
 
I really believe staal is jumping ship for Carolina next season. Based on my assumption you have to sign stralman.
 
bubba5 said:
I really believe staal is jumping ship for Carolina next season. Based on my assumption you have to sign stralman.
Click to expand...

You are also assuming that Carolinas new gm is still interested in making it team staal. There are a lot of rumors out there about e staal getting traded. I don't think Carolina is the slam dunk it once was.
 
Blue Blooded said:
Strålman's elite possession stats actually come from shot suppression, not shot generation, which is surprising considering that he is a small, skilled defenceman. A good breakout is likely part of that, i.e. not getting hemmed in your own zone, but I think a big part of his game is neutral zone D. He is likely good at forcing dump-ins and breaking up plays before they even reach the Rangers' zone, while a guy like Girardi likely allows a ton of carry-in's (his breakouts are usually terrible as well though). Looking deep into the numbers Strålman and Girardi generate about as many shot attempts for vs expectation (slight edge to Strålman, both players are positive) but Strålman blows Girardi out of the water in shot attempt suppression vs expectation.

I think NZ defence is usually the #1 reason where eye-test and stats differ when evaluating defencemen as it is subtle and not usually something you look for. Andrew MacDonald looks like a good defenceman in most aspects, yet has some of the worst fancystats in the league - because he has no idea how to defend in the NZ and opponents are allowed to carry in the puck at will.
Click to expand...

Good post, I agree. Neutral zone play is often overlooked when judging d-men. Strålman defends his own blue-bline very well (he's also very good at holding the offensive blue-line) making it hard for opponents to enter the offensive zone.
 
frankthefrowner said:
You are also assuming that Carolinas new gm is still interested in making it team staal. There are a lot of rumors out there about e staal getting traded. I don't think Carolina is the slam dunk it once was.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Neither Staal had a career year in Carolina last year - if they did, there may not be a new coach and GM now.

And with a new coach and new GM, Carolina may not want to be heading in the direction of 'Team Staal' as much as it was assumed Rutherford was.
 
bubba5 said:
I really believe staal is jumping ship for Carolina next season. Based on my assumption you have to sign stralman.
Click to expand...

Give me one good reason beyond the tired old "he wants to play with his brothers" BS.

Are you familiar with what's going on down in Carolina? That they are trying to y are trying to keep the budget down? That the team looks like crap on the ice and is not one or two players away from contending?

Why would Marc want to go there? His brothers have already won a Stanley Cup. Do you think it was enough for Marc to go to the finals? Heck, they won a game. That must right up there with a kid's dreams to actually hold the Cup after winning 4 games in the finals?

And why does Staal keep saying publically that he really loves playing for the Rangers, if he wants to jump ship? He's also said publically he wants to stay and would like to get an extension out of the way sooner, rather than later:

[Defenseman Marc Staal, who is a year away from being eligible to become an unrestricted free agent, expressed a desire to sign a contract extension with the Rangers before the start of next season.

“I think any hockey player would prefer to be locked up before you start playing,†Staal said. “It’s not going to be the end of the world if nothing happens, but, obviously, you’d rather something be done than not
/QUOTE]

So, I guess he's just been blowing smoke at everyone to obscure his "true" intentions.

You tell me which dream is more important: playing with your brothers or winning a Stanley Cup without them?
Click to expand...
 
Blue Blooded said:
Strålman's elite possession stats actually come from shot suppression, not shot generation, which is surprising considering that he is a small, skilled defenceman. A good breakout is likely part of that, i.e. not getting hemmed in your own zone, but I think a big part of his game is neutral zone D. He is likely good at forcing dump-ins and breaking up plays before they even reach the Rangers' zone, while a guy like Girardi likely allows a ton of carry-in's (his breakouts are usually terrible as well though). Looking deep into the numbers Strålman and Girardi generate about as many shot attempts for vs expectation (slight edge to Strålman, both players are positive) but Strålman blows Girardi out of the water in shot attempt suppression vs expectation.
Click to expand...

The problem is in the way their partners tend to play the game combined with their own strengths. McDonagh and Staal are very similar players, stylistically, in the defensive zone and defending the rush. A lot of pucks get freed up by both of them. Stralman is better at the breakout than Girardi is. It's why Stralman's advanced stats help every pair he's on compared to Girardi's. It's not because he's a better defensive player, but because his skills are a better compliment to the other defensemen he plays with.

Look at it from the other direction too. Girardi plays a very similar game to Staal, like McDonagh does. One of the biggest reasons we saw McDonagh take a step forward offensively this year is because he started taking better advantage of the pucks Girardi frees up (there are other reasons too). In other words, he adjusted his game to be more like Stralman's, but he's even better at it. If McDonagh could adjust just a little further in that direction, then it could really launch him into a Norris contender.
 
Staal is not going from almost tasting the cup to a team who is probably going to end up rebuilding be it this year or next year in carolina
 
Tawnos said:
The problem is in the way their partners tend to play the game combined with their own strengths. McDonagh and Staal are very similar players, stylistically, in the defensive zone and defending the rush. A lot of pucks get freed up by both of them. Stralman is better at the breakout than Girardi is. It's why Stralman's advanced stats help every pair he's on compared to Girardi's. It's not because he's a better defensive player, but because his skills are a better compliment to the other defensemen he plays with.

Look at it from the other direction too. Girardi plays a very similar game to Staal, like McDonagh does. One of the biggest reasons we saw McDonagh take a step forward offensively this year is because he started taking better advantage of the pucks Girardi frees up (there are other reasons too). In other words, he adjusted his game to be more like Stralman's, but he's even better at it. If McDonagh could adjust just a little further in that direction, then it could really launch him into a Norris contender.
Click to expand...

I agree, on a defensive pair one player always tries to defer the breakout to the player who is better at breaking out. In the same token in a pair, usually one player is a better defender with a play coming at them, so as a team, forwards back checking included, they often try to funnel the on coming play towards that side.

Stralman is good at making smart quick puck choices in his own zone, he also does quite well with the neutral zone play, but once the puck over the blue line, I think the Ranger prefer the puck to be on Staal side of the ice. If Staal takes the puck, which he is efficient at doing, he knows his best play is to give it to Stralman for the breakout rather than trying to do something with it himself. That would probably go for for anyone else playing with Stralman as well besides McD.

Not to different than the Girardi McD pair.

If Stralman does leave and they put Klein next to Staal, I'm not as confident that the plays do not spend more time in the Rangers zone as I don't see either of those players being all that skilled at breaking the puck out, although Klein surprised me a bit in the playoff doing just that. Perhaps they will have to incorporate some sort of plan where a forward comes back to take on that responsibility but everything is give and take, that forward then will be behind the play and his line mates will be waiting rather than them rushing up ice together, leaves one less passing option rushing up ice 2-3 instead of 3-2.
 
Bleed Ranger Blue said:
This is an *******'s way to approach a negotiation.

To paraphrase Tommy from Goodfellas, maybe you haven't heard, but Stralman doesn't shine shoes no more.
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Yeah. Never implied that his past should impact amount or that he isn't deserving of a raise.

Just saying since the Rangers did hi a huge favor, it would be nice if he gave them a small one.
 
"Stralman was a nobody that came from the garbage heap"

And Dan Girardi was a nobody that was undrafted.

And Zuccarello was too small, weak, and not quick enough to make it in the NHL.

It doesn't matter where they came from, it matters where they are and what they are now.

Stralman has developed into a legitimate top four, borderline top pair caliber defender.
 
ElectrocutedCat said:
"Stralman was a nobody that came from the garbage heap"

And Dan Girardi was a nobody that was undrafted.

And Zuccarello was too small, weak, and not quick enough to make it in the NHL.

It doesn't matter where they came from, it matters where they are and what they are now.

Stralman has developed into a legitimate top four, borderline top pair caliber defender.
Click to expand...

outside of a few games here and there (small sample size), Stralman has never proved he can be a top pair defenseman.. There is alot of overrating of Stralman on this board.. albeit, there is also alot of underrating him.. he falls somewhere in the middle.
 
If more than 5m was to be found for Callahan, I don't think 4.5-5 should be a impossible number for Strålman. Now St. Louis is obviously entitled to those money but enough can still be find.

Can we invest those money in something better? Maybe in a trade but sure not in this FA market. And in a trade (for a centre) big money is most likely to go the other way. Just don't paint yourself into a corner with a NMC/NTC and all should be good.
 
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