Salary Cap: Irrespective of playoff result, would you trade Nylander in the offseason?

Trade Nylander this offseason

  • Yes

    Votes: 134 49.1%
  • No

    Votes: 107 39.2%
  • Wait one more season

    Votes: 15 5.5%
  • Re-sign as soon as possible at a cap number around $8M-8.5M

    Votes: 17 6.2%

  • Total voters
    273

LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
7,912
10,197
Ottawa
JT is in a complicated spot right now. At this point, I'm as well aware as anyone about how it's just not working out and he's clearly not the player he once was. The struggles are real and prolonged, and that's very disappointing to see from a guy that we've committed 11m to.

But there's two major flaws that I see in the thinking of people when we're talking about JT.

The first is this notion that a team has to be as close to perfect as possible in the salary cap to see success. Guys, for the love of the hockey gods, banish this thought and it will make you so much happier. Obviously cap space is a critical resource that must be maximized. But if the f***ing Habs can go all the way to the Stanley Cup finals, and the Islanders + Canes can make yearly deep runs, I don't want to hear crying about every waylaid 2m crushing this team's dreams. It sure does stink that JT isn't playing like an 11m player any more, but that is not what has kept this team stuck in the 1st round. We didn't lose to Montreal and Columbus because they used their cap space better than us. The Bolts just won two Stanley Cups paying Tyler Johnston 5m for 7 playoff points a year. You want to have a great salary cap situation in today's NHL, but perfect is not a requirement. JT is overpaid. JT will not kill us.

The second is getting lost in comparing the player JT was to the player JT is. He's not an elite #1C any more and it's not likely he's going to suddenly find new speed at 30. But JT is still a defensively responsible PPG centre. JT the superstar is a dream and would make the Leafs unstoppable with Matthews, yes. But JT the actual hockey player today still gives us an elite one-two punch down the middle. JT the declining hockey player is still an extremely useful hockey player who we want as the 2c of the Maple Leafs. Y'all are talking about dumping him because he should be an 8m player, but there's no replacement coming and the futures cost of a replacement in a trade is worth far more than the 3m in cap. As for signing a UFA... I'm sure that would be a great cap move.

JT on the decline is still a damn good hockey player. The further he declines the less relevant this post will be, but I want to encourage people to walk back from the ledge a bit. Y'all are writing about how we're stuck with a PPG two way C as if that is actually a bad thing for our favourite hockey team. The cap is real and the decline is real, but all of this cap bullshit is about putting the best hockey team possible on the ice and JT is still a huge part of that. I agree that he's not getting traded any time soon, but the people who are looking to paint him as the scapegoat are not helping anyone. He'll deserve his share of the blame and the cap hit will be a part of it, but don't get overzealous.

I get it. He's at the top of my trade list too, but it's also something that I really think people shouldn't sweat nearly as much.
 

Nylanderthal

Registered User
Jun 9, 2010
7,901
6,252
Marner isn’t getting all the blame, you don’t need to come to his defense. He’s a world class hockey player, he’s fantastic.

But he’s immature. And that is a problem the entire team has. How do I qualify that? Watch him, listen to him talk. Watch him cry in the penalty box.



How many over the glass penalties has Marner had in the playoffs? From the articles last year I think I remember it being 5 or 6? Immature.

Go watch all of his post game press conferences after the team didn’t show up for game 7 (pick a year, any year, then watch them all, every loss). “We didn’t come ready to play” “nothing I need to do differently” “look in the mirror”, etc

Man, I remember being 23-24 and having all my shit under control and in check.
THESE ARE F00KIN KIDS STILL
 

Nylanderthal

Registered User
Jun 9, 2010
7,901
6,252
JT is in a complicated spot right now. At this point, I'm as well aware as anyone about how it's just not working out and he's clearly not the player he once was. The struggles are real and prolonged, and that's very disappointing to see from a guy that we've committed 11m to.

But there's two major flaws that I see in the thinking of people when we're talking about JT.

The first is this notion that a team has to be as close to perfect as possible in the salary cap to see success. Guys, for the love of the hockey gods, banish this thought and it will make you so much happier. Obviously cap space is a critical resource that must be maximized. But if the f***ing Habs can go all the way to the Stanley Cup finals, and the Islanders + Canes can make yearly deep runs, I don't want to hear crying about every waylaid 2m crushing this team's dreams. It sure does stink that JT isn't playing like an 11m player any more, but that is not what has kept this team stuck in the 1st round. We didn't lose to Montreal and Columbus because they used their cap space better than us. The Bolts just won two Stanley Cups paying Tyler Johnston 5m for 7 playoff points a year. You want to have a great salary cap situation in today's NHL, but perfect is not a requirement. JT is overpaid. JT will not kill us.

The second is getting lost in comparing the player JT was to the player JT is. He's not an elite #1C any more and it's not likely he's going to suddenly find new speed at 30. But JT is still a defensively responsible PPG centre. JT the superstar is a dream and would make the Leafs unstoppable with Matthews, yes. But JT the actual hockey player today still gives us an elite one-two punch down the middle. JT the declining hockey player is still an extremely useful hockey player who we want as the 2c of the Maple Leafs. Y'all are talking about dumping him because he should be an 8m player, but there's no replacement coming and the futures cost of a replacement in a trade is worth far more than the 3m in cap. As for signing a UFA... I'm sure that would be a great cap move.

JT on the decline is still a damn good hockey player. The further he declines the less relevant this post will be, but I want to encourage people to walk back from the ledge a bit. Y'all are writing about how we're stuck with a PPG two way C as if that is actually a bad thing for our favourite hockey team. The cap is real and the decline is real, but all of this cap bullshit is about putting the best hockey team possible on the ice and JT is still a huge part of that. I agree that he's not getting traded any time soon, but the people who are looking to paint him as the scapegoat are not helping anyone. He'll deserve his share of the blame and the cap hit will be a part of it, but don't get overzealous.

I get it. He's at the top of my trade list too, but it's also something that I really think people shouldn't sweat nearly as much.
9th in 5v5 scoring for c’s, .94ppg, 61% FO (2nd to Bergeron), 1st in puck battles won according to sportlogiq tracking.
He’s not the guy he was his first year here, but he’s also not the tire fire some reactionaries will paint him out to be.
The issue mostly lies with the fact him & 2022 Willy have 0 chem
 

nuck

Schrodingers Cat
Aug 18, 2005
11,607
2,650
Doubt there is a GM out there that will take JT and his cap hit without dumping most of the cap hit back or without a huge sweetener. Has any player with a NMC and huge cap hit ever been traded ?? Luongo, ,Kovalchuk, Weber, Subban ??
It would likely have to be another player coming back with a monster cap hit like a Doughty or a Karlsson, assuming any of them would consider moving. I don't expect KD would ever ask, but a new GM might at least inquire. As others have mentioned, who has the cap space to burn that he would accept a move to? LA has Edler and Brown off the books next season so that is over $9M without attaching Doughty, would that make them a player? Its not a deal you could expect the club to look for, just one that is theoretically possible if everything lined up. It would need to start with JT not being happy any more as a Leaf and the club thinking there was another available solution at center and either of those are a deal breaker by themselves.

I am more interested in seeing what the team can do in the first round than what they might do if one player or another fails in the playoffs. So many moving parts beyond Tavares and Nylander's futures. Who knows what will be on the table? I will comfortably say Engvall, Kampf, Matthews Brodie and Rielly are back next season but I wouldn't bet the farm on anyone else without some playoff success.
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
22,061
6,652
There isn't a chance. Players often want NTC's to control their fate if trade options start floating around.

JT was different though. He very clearly chose to come back to his (and his wife's) home city to raise a family.

There is just absolutely no way this will happen.
yeah cool story how Johnny came back to his home town team , yada yada but he doesn't come back

-if the Islanders were contenders
-the Leafs weren't on the upswing
-we didn't give him everything he wanted contract wise

and if the team gets knocked out again early and Johnny won't waive then it's best we gut the team for futures and plan for when JT is off the books
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,526
24,855
Richmond Hill, ON
It would likely have to be another player coming back with a monster cap hit like a Doughty or a Karlsson, assuming any of them would consider moving. I don't expect KD would ever ask, but a new GM might at least inquire. As others have mentioned, who has the cap space to burn that he would accept a move to? LA has Edler and Brown off the books next season so that is over $9M without attaching Doughty, would that make them a player? Its not a deal you could expect the club to look for, just one that is theoretically possible if everything lined up. It would need to start with JT not being happy any more as a Leaf and the club thinking there was another available solution at center and either of those are a deal breaker by themselves.

I am more interested in seeing what the team can do in the first round than what they might do if one player or another fails in the playoffs. So many moving parts beyond Tavares and Nylander's futures. Who knows what will be on the table? I will comfortably say Engvall, Kampf, Matthews Brodie and Rielly are back next season but I wouldn't bet the farm on anyone else without some playoff success.

The solution that works for both the Leafs and Tavares is to LTIR him for most of the next 3 seasons. JT stays, the Leafs honour his NMC, the Leafs can use the freed up cap space to add. Everybody is happy !!
 
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ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,526
24,855
Richmond Hill, ON
You want to ltir a guy who’s scoring ppg (9th in scoring for C’s 5v5)…. This place is insane

LOL How many fans are on the we need to trade him train which is close to never going to happen. I am a JT supporter and I hate to admit JT's play has been declining since they moved Mitch off his wing. If he keeps declining this team is going nowhere until his cap hit is freed up. I hate that @hotpaws is constantly on his hate JT crusade but I can't say he is totally off base.
 
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SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
16,776
9th in 5v5 scoring for c’s, .94ppg, 61% FO (2nd to Bergeron), 1st in puck battles won according to sportlogiq tracking.
He’s not the guy he was his first year here, but he’s also not the tire fire some reactionaries will paint him out to be.
The issue mostly lies with the fact him & 2022 Willy have 0 chem

He is not scoring at his usual rate. His shooting percentage is at a career low.

Although a lot of it has to do with Nylander not filling his role properly.
 

Nylanderthal

Registered User
Jun 9, 2010
7,901
6,252
LOL How many fans are on the we need to trade him train which is close to never going to happen. I am a JT supporter and I hate to admit JT's play has been declining since they moved Mitch off his wing. If he keeps declining this team is going nowhere until his cap hit is freed up. I hate that @hotpaws is constantly on his hate JT crusade but I can't say he is totally off base.
Both ideas are stupid. He’s still handily a top 20c. His cap hasn’t inhibited the team from a move. Maybe in the last year or two if we’re in the same spot as right now look at it, but my god.
 
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Nylanderthal

Registered User
Jun 9, 2010
7,901
6,252
He is not scoring at his usual rate. His shooting percentage is at a career low.

Although a lot of it has to do with Nylander not filling his role properly.
So with career avg shot% he’s over ppg. He’s fine, definitely not the issue
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
22,061
6,652
LOL How many fans are on the we need to trade him train which is close to never going to happen. I am a JT supporter and I hate to admit JT's play has been declining since they moved Mitch off his wing. If he keeps declining this team is going nowhere until his cap hit is freed up. I hate that @hotpaws is constantly on his hate JT crusade but I can't say he is totally off base.
we can't agree on everything , lol

the thing that bothers me the most about JT is it's always everybody else letting him down and this goes back over 15 years to his jr days

it's truly remarkable how fan base after fan base shit on all his teammates to deflect criticism away from Johnny , i've never seen this way any other player and the worse Jonny plays the more the shit Willie is taking

the Islander players probably had a party to celebrate Johnny walking out on them so they don't have to endlessly listen to how they're not worthy of being on the same ice as him
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,526
24,855
Richmond Hill, ON
we can't agree on everything , lol

the thing that bothers me the most about JT is it's always everybody else letting him down and this goes back over 15 years to his jr days

it's truly remarkable how fan base after fan base shit on all his teammates to deflect criticism away from Johnny , i've never seen this way any other player and the worse Jonny plays the more the shit Willie is taking

the Islander players probably had a party to celebrate Johnny walking out on them so they don't have to endlessly listen to how they're not worthy of being on the same ice as him

No idea what the situation is behind closed doors here or on the island. All I can go by is his play on the ice and I am concerned. Longshot they move him so all I am hoping for is that they can find somebody that can help him find his game. Clearly 2 soft wingers in 15 and a lazy 88 are not doing it for him.
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
22,061
6,652
No idea what the situation is behind closed doors here or on the island. All I can go by is his play on the ice and I am concerned. Longshot they move him so all I am hoping for is that they can find somebody that can help him find his game. Clearly 2 soft wingers in 15 and a lazy 88 are not doing it for him.
what Johnny needs is 2 wingers to cover all the ice for him while he floats around in open space near the net and any success is attributed to Johnny , just like his fans saying how he carried Marner his first year here

it's not hard to understand what's going on behind closed doors , picture yourself one of his teammates who gets constantly shit on while nary a word is said about JT and think of how that would make you feel
 
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Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,237
7,307
Burlington
LOL How many fans are on the we need to trade him train which is close to never going to happen. I am a JT supporter and I hate to admit JT's play has been declining since they moved Mitch off his wing. If he keeps declining this team is going nowhere until his cap hit is freed up. I hate that @hotpaws is constantly on his hate JT crusade but I can't say he is totally off base.

I agree with just about everything @hotpaws posts but it's tough because if JT fails as a signing here then that means we won't win a Cup, full-stop. You can't have deadweight to the tune of $11 million on your roster and hope to contend in this league.

I'd also hate seeing the biggest free-agent signing in Leafs history fail because that might spook any future big-ticket free agents from signing here.

We had a tough time with those up until the Lou/Dubas era.
 
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Racer88

Registered User
Sep 29, 2020
12,106
12,107
Probably not. When he is good he is very good so I would try me level best to convince him to work hard more often.
his 6.9ish million doesn’t fix our issues.
We know who’s contract we need to be rid of but we are stuck with him for 3 more years and it’s going to be a rough 3 years
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
81,397
59,018
Marner has been garbage in the playoffs three years running. The regular season does not matter if we're talking about this team being a contender, and MLSE only makes extra money if the Leafs go deep in the playoffs. If this core is getting retooled, it's about the playoff success rather than regular season success.

The second line is a problem for the Leafs today, but that problem is far more Tavares related than Nylander related. Chucking out Nylander because he's done less for us recently and is the closest Tavares proxy is not good decision making. Besides goaltending has been the biggest issue, it's far more important than Nylander dragging ass or the 2c who is overpaid but has 9p in the last 10gp.

Ultimately I'm fine if we do move on from Nylander (I'm fine with moving anyone not named Matthews or Rielly), but keep the perspective of why we're getting retooled in this scenario. If Nylander is great in the playoffs again and Marner isn't, that will factor very heavily into any decision making.

Tavares is my number one albatross. I think you can delete his on ice contribution and spend the $11 million on whatever your heart desires and the Leafs reasonably come out ahead.

Moving Nylander has merit if there's a hockey trade component where you just cash in his strengths for a different set of elite abilities to make the team different. I wouldn't be doing it out of anger to punish him cause he's lazy though.
 
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LEAFANFORLIFE23

Registered User
Jun 17, 2010
47,408
16,043
Why would you do something stupid like that?

it is literally never a good idea to get rid of good players, that is always a stupid idea
 

Leafs87

Mr. Steal Your Job
Aug 10, 2010
15,188
5,309
Toronto
Not a fan of trading Willy, however it’s been proven that with that much cap tied to those 4 it doesn’t work. Ideally it would be Tavares moved but that won’t happen so I guess he is the next option
 
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Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
13,340
5,227
GTA or the UK
Not a fan of trading him, but it depends entirely on the return.

For example, if you can package him for a Chychrun, you are getting an elite return + saving $2.5M in cap space in doing so.
 

francis246

Registered User
Nov 16, 2007
14,496
17,912
i know he has a nmc but why do you keep ignoring players get traded all the time with nmc's ?

players usually waive there nmc's when a team no longer wants them but for some reason Johnny seems to be a special case where you can't even mention him waiving and instead trade everyone around him

I keep ignoring you bc you keep bringing up guys who’s NMC’s were voided at time of trade. Subban’s NMC was signed in the previous collective bargaining agreement where once you are moved that NMC becomes void. Also I believe MTL traded Subban right before his NMC kicked in. So he didn’t waive and if you know anything (which you clearly don’t even take the time to do a bit of research) Subban did not want out of MTL but MTL wanted to move on from him so they had to trade him quickly before his NMC kicked in.

Reference for this claim - Predators Won't Honour P.K. Subban's No-Movement Clause

Talks about the fact that MTL moved him before his NMC kicked in.

Shea Weber doesn’t even have a f***ing NMC. So again, at least if you’re going to bring up examples bring up ones that are factual.


Louongo you got right but it only serves to prove our point about JT. Lou’s wife is from Florida, hence why he was only willing to waive to go to Florida. Why? To make his wife happy. JT has already made that move, so he isn’t going to leave.

I hear your point but there’s really no precedent for it especially after signing as a UFA with a NMC.
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
22,061
6,652
I keep ignoring you bc you keep bringing up guys who’s NMC’s were voided at time of trade. Subban’s NMC was signed in the previous collective bargaining agreement where once you are moved that NMC becomes void. Also I believe MTL traded Subban right before his NMC kicked in. So he didn’t waive and if you know anything (which you clearly don’t even take the time to do a bit of research) Subban did not want out of MTL but MTL wanted to move on from him so they had to trade him quickly before his NMC kicked in.

Reference for this claim - Predators Won't Honour P.K. Subban's No-Movement Clause

Talks about the fact that MTL moved him before his NMC kicked in.

Shea Weber doesn’t even have a f***ing NMC. So again, at least if you’re going to bring up examples bring up ones that are factual.


Louongo you got right but it only serves to prove our point about JT. Lou’s wife is from Florida, hence why he was only willing to waive to go to Florida. Why? To make his wife happy. JT has already made that move, so he isn’t going to leave.

I hear your point but there’s really no precedent for it especially after signing as a UFA with a NMC.
i don't know why this response is directed at me considering i never mentioned any names and only said players have been traded with NMC's , Kabs had a nmc , didn't want to leave but was eventually convinced to waive if you want an example from our team
 

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