Interim Jets coach Dave Lowry (December 2021, not now)

[Jetfaninflorida]

Yeah, the way he kept going back to CSW struck me much more as a "things aren't working, and this was one of the most successful lines I've coached" than the oft repeated "Wheeler is making the decisions".

He was wrong to keep pushing CSW, but I think he did it because it was the best line for the best team Maurice has ever coached. I think it's easy to fall back on that, and not just for Maurice. And I think that's a big reason why coaches have shelf lives.

Well, there was the Wheeler interview about 3 weeks ago where Wheeler said he told Paul to 'give us the kid (KFC)' to help get them going. I think people way underestimate how much Maurice deferred to Wheeler's and Sheif's wants and needs.

 

[Jet]

Well, there was the Wheeler interview about 3 weeks ago where Wheeler said he told Paul to 'give us the kid (KFC)' to help get them going. I think people way underestimate how much Maurice deferred to Wheeler's and Sheif's wants and needs.

I promise to change my signature if you change yours

 

[Jets 31]

Hard to say what the thoughts were behind the situation -
IMO, he was blinded by the past - he knew the line was once dominant but should have known it was no longer.

I might be OK with going back to that line if we were struggling with generating offense - but we were not and he torn down a line that was doing exactly what the old line used to do.
He had a line in place that was getting it done - so why do you break it up when certain players come back to the line up and are struggling?

It's not too far a stretch to assume he was more concerned with a couple of players that were struggling - and he sacrificed what was working to address that concern.
People will view that decision differently - this is simply my opinion and the major reason I fell of the Maurice cart after being on it since the beginning.

My sort of eye opener was how no matter what was happening in a game Scheifele and Wheeler never had minutes cut back and that happened quite a bit to Ehlers. Hence how it looked like Maurice liked Scheifele and Wheeler a little too much.

 

[None]

Well, there was the Wheeler interview about 3 weeks ago where Wheeler said he told Paul to 'give us the kid (KFC)' to help get them going. I think people way underestimate how much Maurice deferred to Wheeler's and Sheif's wants and needs.

It was a Paul Maurice interview where he describes Wheeler asking him to put Connor with him and Scheifele early in Connor's career. Not unlike Byfuglien saying he wanted to play with Morrissey or Chiarot.

I think you're misinterpreting it as Wheeler going to Maurice this year and asking him to move Connor off of Dubois' wing, which definitely isn't what Maurice was saying.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I promise to change my signature if you change yours

I would love to, but I have tried. HFBoards won't let me. I think I had sent them some money for something way back and they let me put a signature. But I guess that money 'expired' and now they won't let me edit it at all. Not even to remove it. Go figure!!!

 

[surixon]

It was a Paul Maurice interview where he describes Wheeler asking him to put Connor with him and Scheifele early in Connor's career. Not unlike Byfuglien saying he wanted to play with Morrissey or Chiarot.

I think you're misinterpreting it as Wheeler going to Maurice this year and asking him to move Connor off of Dubois' wing, which definitely isn't what Maurice was saying.

Are you sure? I took it as him asking to play with him this year.

Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things as I'm sure players ask to play with certain players all the time for one reason or another.

In the end Moe is the one who elected to tear down what was working in an attempt to get some other players going. He fully wears that.

 

[None]

Are you sure? I took it as him asking to play with him this year.

Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things as I'm sure players ask to play with certain players all the time for one reason or another.

In the end Moe is the one who elected to tear down what was working in an attempt to get some other players going. He fully wears that.

I thought it was Maurice giving Wheeler credit for where Connor is now and basically inferring that Connor owed Wheeler something

And I absolutely agree, Maurice deserves all the blame for tearing apart the lines that were working. His excuse of wanting more fell flat because what more can you ask for than a +1 in the win column? Who cares about personal production, he had said enough in the past that offense will come for skilled players as long as you're patient.
His own impatience got the better of him and he f***ed around with lines that were going.

 

[surixon]

I thought it was Maurice giving Wheeler credit for where Connor is now and basically inferring that Connor owed Wheeler something

And I absolutely agree, Maurice deserves all the blame for tearing apart the lines that were working. His excuse of wanting more fell flat because what more can you ask for than a +1 in the win column? Who cares about personal production, he had said enough in the past that offense will come for skilled players as long as you're patient.
His own impatience got the better of him and he f***ed around with lines that were going.

Yeah the him wanting more was just him setting himself up with a reason to change a line he didn't want to keep around.

You'd never hear him say that about CSW as it was a combo he liked.

 

[snowkiddin]

What is remarkably puzzling to I (and this has been touched on already ITT) is Maurice falling back on CSW because he’s had success with them in the past.

The lineup was winning and we had lines going — so why change what was working? Ultimately, after messing with the lines, we began to struggle so then he resorted to CSW, when there wasn’t a reason to break up the lines in the first place. PLD/Svech were rolling, and we were winning. Then, he breaks them up and the team starts struggling. So instead of going back to PLD/Svech, which has had success recently, he decides to go back to CSW, which has had success in the past. Why wouldn’t you reunite PLD/Svech?

This is why I don’t think it’s a crazy, tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy to explore that Maurice’s lineup decisions were influenced by Wheeler and Scheifele.

I’m not saying Scheif/Wheeler ran the room or that he was trying to excessively please them, but I do think Maurice thought the team would be it’s best with Scheifele and Wheeler producing and on the top line. So even though they struggled this year, he refused to cut down on their minutes because he figured they’d eventually find their footing and the club would be better for it.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

It was a Paul Maurice interview where he describes Wheeler asking him to put Connor with him and Scheifele early in Connor's career. Not unlike Byfuglien saying he wanted to play with Morrissey or Chiarot.

I think you're misinterpreting it as Wheeler going to Maurice this year and asking him to move Connor off of Dubois' wing, which definitely isn't what Maurice was saying.

Yes, it was a Maurice interview. Found a link here:



The whole conversation is about now. There is not even a hint of suggestion that it had anything to do with being early in Connor's career. It is all about Wheeler (and Scheif) struggling this year after getting sick. 'Kyle is driving that line ...'. Listen to that. It is all in the context of now (the now at the time of that interview).

You have to work pretty hard to insert a lot of your own assumptions to try to make it into Paul talking about 2016-17.

 

[None]

Yes, it was a Maurice interview. Found a link here:



The whole conversation is about now. There is not even a hint of suggestion that it had anything to do with being early in Connor's career. It is all about Wheeler (and Scheif) struggling this year after getting sick. 'Kyle is driving that line ...'. Listen to that. It is all in the context of now (the now at the time of that interview).

You have to work pretty hard to insert a lot of your own assumptions to try to make it into Paul talking about 2016-17.

Yeah, I was the one that clipped that from the postgame and subtitled it.

I think it's pretty obvious that he's speaking in past tense after he said "certainly more than in the past" and then finishes when he said "and now where I play Connor there's usually a fair amount of production going on."
He's giving Wheeler credit for taking Connor under his wing in the past and saying that Wheeler played a role in where Connor is today.

 

[None]

Yeah the him wanting more was just him setting himself up with a reason to change a line he didn't want to keep around.

You'd never hear him say that about CSW as it was a combo he liked.

Yeah, I liked Sean Reynolds' take on Maurice going back to Connor-Scheifele-Wheeler.


I think he kind of catches Ken Wiebe towing Maurice's narrative along there too

Sean: Is there ever a thought in breaking up that line to get anyone else going?
Ken: Well you shouldn't have to because you have Dubois and Ehlers together.

That's the point. Maurice shouldn't have had to break up Connor-Dubois-Svechnikov to get Scheifele and Wheeler going, they were 2/3 of Maurice's top line on most nights from 2016 onwards.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Yeah, I was the one that clipped that from the postgame and subtitled it.

I think it's pretty obvious that he's speaking in past tense after he said "certainly more than in the past" and then finishes when he said "and now where I play Connor there's usually a fair amount of production going on."
He's giving Wheeler credit for taking Connor under his wing in the past and saying that Wheeler played a role in where Connor is today.

Thanks for submitting the clip for the board to see and discuss.

I disagree. This was about 'now'.

Happy Holidays!

 

[None]

Thanks for submitting the clip for the board to see and discuss.

I disagree. This was about 'now'.

Happy Holidays!

Yeah, it's perfectly fine to disagree. Disagreements breed discussion, I don't think I'm going to change how I interpret Maurice there though.

Happy holidays to you as well

 

[surixon]

Yeah, I was the one that clipped that from the postgame and subtitled it.

I think it's pretty obvious that he's speaking in past tense after he said "certainly more than in the past" and then finishes when he said "and now where I play Connor there's usually a fair amount of production going on."
He's giving Wheeler credit for taking Connor under his wing in the past and saying that Wheeler played a role in where Connor is today.

No issue with giving credit for mentoring Conner. I hope they use him to mentor Perfetti the back half of this year. Imo that is really where he is likely best served now.

I personally hope that while he is out a number of players like Dubois, Ehlers, Conner etc step up and take control of this team and its direction in the room. I think it's past time that the younger and better players start driving the bus for this group. As with a new coaching voice the room needs a leadership group that emphasizes the way we now want to play.

Blake can still be a part of that and mentor the youth on the team but it's not his team any longer and he should be deployed accordingly.

 

[None]

No issue with giving credit for mentoring Conner. I hope they use him to mentor Perfetti the back half of this year. Imo that is really where he is likely best served now.

For sure, one thing that fans kind of don't really talk about is the work ethic that players need to keep up and continually improve. A huge part of player development is player driven and it's not entirely about skill. I think seeing players, particularly long lasting players, and what they're doing every day is a huge part of that.

Monkey see, monkey do

 

[surixon]

For sure, one thing that fans kind of don't really talk about is the work ethic that players need to keep up and continually improve. A huge part of player development is player driven and it's not entirely about skill. I think seeing players, particularly long lasting players, and what they're doing every day is a huge part of that.

Monkey see, monkey do

Yup, Wheeler definitely helped Conner with that aspect.

I think from a player template both Wheeler and Paul have a lot to offer Cole as mentors. Perfetti has the smarts to learn the positioning, timing and small details from Paul. He is also a pure playdriving playmaker and that is what Wheeler was for most of his career. He can learn a lot about that from him.

 

[None]

Yup, Wheeler definitely helped Conner with that aspect.

I think from a player template both Wheeler and Paul have a lot to offer Cole as mentors. Perfetti has the smarts to learn thebposironing, timing and small details from Paul. He is also a pure playdriving playmaker and that is what Wheeler was for most of his career. He can learn a lot about that from him.

Yeah, I hope Perfetti makes the team after the World Juniors because I think Stastny could be the perfect fit to bring him along. I think there's a perfect opportunity if Lowry feels he has some rope to get creative with the roster.

I think expectations might still be pretty high though, Lowry might not feel comfortable doing something like that if his job is on the line. I wouldn't be surprised if Lowry is just as risk averse as Maurice.

Maybe Stastny signs for another year if we have the space once Dubois is figured out and I assume Copp moves on.

 

[surixon]

Yeah, I hope Perfetti makes the team after the World Juniors because I think Stastny could be the perfect fit to bring him along. I think there's a perfect opportunity if Lowry feels he has some rope to get creative with the roster.

I think expectations might still be pretty high though, Lowry might not feel comfortable doing something like that if his job is on the line. I wouldn't be surprised if Lowry is just as risk averse as Maurice.

Maybe Stastny signs for another year if we have the space once Dubois is figured out and I assume Copp moves on.

Yeah it will be interesting to see what Lowry does but he already seems more willing to move a young player up with Ves going to the second line.

It also seems he is rotating the kids on the PK in practice so I'd expect to see them play more on the PK moving forward.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Yeah it will be interesting to see what Lowry does but he already seems more willing to move a young player up with Ves going to the second line.

It also seems he is rotating the kids on the PK in practice so I'd expect to see them play more on the PK moving forward.

Hope he keeps rotating them. I don't like seeing Connor on Pk. I mean last time he sprung Dillion on a 2 on 1 and he hasn't made any egregious mistakes that have led to goals, but, I think having offensive players on pk is a waste as they should be more fresh for pp and es.

 

[Adam da bomb]

No issue with giving credit for mentoring Conner. I hope they use him to mentor Perfetti the back half of this year. Imo that is really where he is likely best served now.

I personally hope that while he is out a number of players like Dubois, Ehlers, Conner etc step up and take control of this team and its direction in the room. I think it's past time that the younger and better players start driving the bus for this group. As with a new coaching voice the room needs a leadership group that emphasizes the way we now want to play.

Blake can still be a part of that and mentor the youth on the team but it's not his team any longer and he should be deployed accordingly.

If we are giving Wheeler credit for mentoring Connor, should we also point out that Connor was stagnating on CSW and all 3 of them were lazy. Connor has only taken it to another level with Dubois. Who is a leader and a player who gets more out of his linemates.
Connor is night and day different playing with Dubois, back checking, line driving. He was always a good passer and finisher. Dubois seems like a more efficient mentor than Wheeler ever was. Ehlers also has got going playing better hockey after being paired with Dubois.

 

[surixon]

If we are giving Wheeler credit for mentoring Connor, should we also point out that Connor was stagnating on CSW and all 3 of them were lazy. Connor has only taken it to another level with Dubois. Who is a leader and a player who gets more out of his linemates.
Connor is night and day different playing with Dubois, back checking, line driving. He was always a good passer and finisher. Dubois seems like a more efficient mentor than Wheeler ever was. Ehlers also has got going playing better hockey after being paired with Dubois.

I was more talking about work ethic in practice and off ice. Also to be fair Wheeler used to play a very good direct game when he was in his prime.

Sure the line got complacent and lazy but Wheeler for a good chunk of his career was a model player on the ice.

 

[tbcwpg]

What is remarkably puzzling to I (and this has been touched on already ITT) is Maurice falling back on CSW because he’s had success with them in the past.

The lineup was winning and we had lines going — so why change what was working? Ultimately, after messing with the lines, we began to struggle so then he resorted to CSW, when there wasn’t a reason to break up the lines in the first place. PLD/Svech were rolling, and we were winning. Then, he breaks them up and the team starts struggling. So instead of going back to PLD/Svech, which has had success recently, he decides to go back to CSW, which has had success in the past. Why wouldn’t you reunite PLD/Svech?

This is why I don’t think it’s a crazy, tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy to explore that Maurice’s lineup decisions were influenced by Wheeler and Scheifele.

I’m not saying Scheif/Wheeler ran the room or that he was trying to excessively please them, but I do think Maurice thought the team would be it’s best with Scheifele and Wheeler producing and on the top line. So even though they struggled this year, he refused to cut down on their minutes because he figured they’d eventually find their footing and the club would be better for it.

I don't think it's tinfoil hat stuff, I'm sure Maurice asked Wheeler or Scheifele their opinions. I just take umbrage with the notion that Maurice was some weak-willed yes man that allowed Wheeler and, to a lesser extent, Scheifele to decide who played with whom and made subpar decisions out of a desire to keep his job than a desire to win.

Maurice fell into the trap of messing with what was working. I'd bet that he saw that Connor and PLD especially were doing well together, and that Svech wasn't really adding anything to that line analytically. He also probably asked Scheifele and Wheeler what they needed to get themselves going personally, and perhaps Wheeler suggested CSW, or perhaps Maurice thought putting Wheeler with 2 producing forwards would get him going. Whatever the reason, I just push back on the notion that he just did what Wheeler told him to do.

 

[snowkiddin]

I don't think it's tinfoil hat stuff, I'm sure Maurice asked Wheeler or Scheifele their opinions. I just take umbrage with the notion that Maurice was some weak-willed yes man that allowed Wheeler and, to a lesser extent, Scheifele to decide who played with whom and made subpar decisions out of a desire to keep his job than a desire to win.

Maurice fell into the trap of messing with what was working. I'd bet that he saw that Connor and PLD especially were doing well together, and that Svech wasn't really adding anything to that line analytically. He also probably asked Scheifele and Wheeler what they needed to get themselves going personally, and perhaps Wheeler suggested CSW, or perhaps Maurice thought putting Wheeler with 2 producing forwards would get him going. Whatever the reason, I just push back on the notion that he just did what Wheeler told him to do.

I agree to an extent. I don't think Maurice was being pushed around by Wheeler or anything, I just think he thought that if he could get Wheeler and Scheifele going that the team would be at it's best, so he messed with what was working in an attempt to do just that - and he was just slow to change things up again when Wheeler and Scheifele continued to struggle up in the lineup.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I was more talking about work ethic in practice and off ice. Also to be fair Wheeler used to play a very good direct game when he was in his prime.

Sure the line got complacent and lazy but Wheeler for a good chunk of his career was a model player on the ice.

Also kudos to Connor for taking the lessons, Laine on the other hand, stagnated every since his rookie year because he wasn't motivated and didn't care about who was setting what example. Makes you wish Schief took Wheeler's lessons more to heart. There were many times last game he was just lazy. He also had a nice goal, and a super nice pass on Ehlers goal, but, there were definitely lots of times he just waved his stick at the puck.