Incompetence vs Indifference

[ACC1224]

There has been some talk that the team doesn't care to win and only wants to make money.
Many believe the best way to make money is to win.
Others seem to think the only goal is money and winning is secondary, no one has been able to explain how that makes sense.

Instead of taking another thread off topic, perhaps it could be explained here?

Click to read more...

 

[rumman]

Let's suppose Company A has a product, a mediocre product but they make great profits off this mediocre product. They also have a monopoly on said produce with no viable alternative for the consumers who purchase the product, in fact they have consumers that are more than happy paying good money for this mediocre product. Why would they ever consider improving their product when they make great profits, their customers are as happy as pigs in shit, and they hold a monopoly where there's no alternative for consumers who God forbid aren't satisfied with the mediocre product.

Yes going deep into the playoffs would provide more profits, this cannot be disputed, but that's just icing on a very very profitable cake. If there was another NHL team in the GTA I can guarantee you winning would become the highest priority because not winning would effect their profit margins and threaten their market share. I'm not a accountant, but I'll bet there's some kind of tax angle where one round of playoffs is more profitable than a deep run, but that's just a theory on why the team spends so much to produce a mediocre product. That and if they ever did win a cup a large part of they audience would take that item off their bucket list and call it a day...........

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Is this question for management, the players, or both?

 

[Kazparov]

Anyone who thinks that winning the Stanley Cup isn't by far the most profitable thing this team could ever do ever is an idiot.

They already spend max on salaries and their budget for facilities, coaches, scouting development is miles above the rest of the league with maybe a few exceptions.

This is not the 1980's Ballard years.

 

[ACC1224]

Is this question for management, the players, or both?

Management

 

[NVious]

I think ownership is extremely happy with:
1.Making the playoffs every year
2.Having legit superstars on the team
3.The revenue that comes from that (especially jerseys)

They don't have the balls to "mess that up" by potentially taking a step back, sure they want to win if they can, but they don't have the balls to rock the boat with any of the superstars at all.

It's very obvious this organization is run in a cowardly fashion, the best example of that is that Shanahan still has a job somehow, how in the world can he still have a job after he is directly responsible for everything that has taken place is beyond me, but it makes sense when you realize they don't care to try and win at all costs, nor are there consequences for repeated failure in Toronto because at the end of the day the revenues are great, they have superstars and they can sell them having a chance of winning every year.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

They already spend max on salaries and their budget for facilities, coaches, scouting development is miles above the rest of the league with maybe a few exceptions.

Source?

 

[ToneDog]

I don't recall which GM said it but the GM wanted to bring in a star player and the owner (probably Ballard) asked the GM to look at the stands and then asked, why do I need to bring this guy in, do you see any empty seats?

Owners may not be a scummy as Ballard but not much has changed. They have no clue how to win. New GM, new coach, new assistants, new Pres, etc etc etc. The joke of the National Hockey League and perhaps all of sports along with a few more incompetent organizations. Sad for such a loyal fanbase.

 

[Clyde Brewer]

I think they definitely want to make revenue- but not at the expense of losing a squeaky-clean image. Therefore, they are content with their "pretty" and marketable players, like Marner- even if that type of player doesn't equate to playoff success.


They sell enough seats/jerseys, etc to be lucrative- and that is enough for them.

 

[ToneDog]

I think ownership is extremely happy with:
1.Making the playoffs every year
2.Having legit superstars on the team
3.The revenue that comes from that (especially jerseys)

They don't have the balls to "mess that up" by potentially taking a step back, sure they want to win if they can, but they don't have the balls to rock the boat with any of the superstars at all.

It's very obvious this organization is run in a cowardly fashion, the best example of that is that Shanahan still has a job somehow, how in the world can he still have a job after he is directly responsible for everything that has taken place is beyond me, but it makes sense when you realize they don't care to try and win at all costs, nor are there consequences for repeated failure in Toronto because at the end of the day the revenues are great, they have superstars and they can sell them having a chance of winning every year.

If they were in a non-hockey market they probably would not be able to fill St. Mikes arena.

 

[The Management]

Management

As Management, I feel uniquely qualified to answer... lol, why did I pick this stupid name.

I think they want to win. The people who run the team at the operations level, including Shannahan, Treliving, Berube, are all in it for the success. So was Dubas, Nonis, Burke... I think they've all got a certain amount of competitiveness.

It's just exceptionally hard to win. When I go back and revisit the drafts that landed us our core, I don't really see any mistakes. A franchise center who sets goalscoring records, a selke nominated playmaking winger, and another winger who is well over a point per game and can notch you forty goals. Many rebuilding teams would kill for that kind of talent with their top ten picks. There was reason to be optimistic. Unfortunately, things just haven't worked out, and I find it hard to pin it on any one ingredient... cap management? Lack of killer instinct? Poor goaltending? Shallow blueline? Probably a bit of each.

What I do believe, though, is that nobody who works or plays at this high of a level likes to lose.

 

[ACC1224]

I think they definitely want to make revenue- but not at the expense of losing a squeaky-clean image. Therefore, they are content with their "pretty" and marketable players, like Marner- even if that type of player doesn't equate to playoff success.


They sell enough seats/jerseys, etc to be lucrative- and that is enough for them.

No idea how anyone could think that Bell and Rogers are ever satisfied with 'enough for them'.

 

[Menzinger]

The NHL is a gate revenue driven league. The idea that MLSE doesn't care about more playoff games where they literally print money is just bizzaro logic

They've just been really bad at it.

Source?

The Leafs report podcast with Mirtle and Jonas has gone into decent detail over a number for episodes describing how top notch the Leafs facilities are. If they aren't spending the most on the NHL on them I'd be legitimately surprised.

 

[Nineteen67]

They care about revenue and would have loved more than anything an 8 yr stretch with a Cup and a few long playoff runs. They hitched their wagon to the wrong horses and made some hideous choices along the way.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't recall which GM said it but the GM wanted to bring in a star player and the owner (probably Ballard) asked the GM to look at the stands and then asked, why do I need to bring this guy in, do you see any empty seats?

Owners may not be a scummy as Ballard but not much has changed. They have no clue how to win. New GM, new coach, new assistants, new Pres, etc etc etc. The joke of the National Hockey League and perhaps all of sports along with a few more incompetent organizations. Sad for such a loyal fanbase.

I'm pretty sure that Stavro was the owner and the player was Gretzky.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There has been some talk that the team doesn't care to win and only wants to make money.
Many believe the best way to make money is to win.
Others seem to think the only goal is money and winning is secondary, no one has been able to explain how that makes sense.

Instead of taking another thread off topic, perhaps it could be explained here?

Nobody has said that making money is the only goal, it's obviously the main goal though which shouldn't be news to anyone.

You're like this weird serial thread starter. Every thread goes off on different tangents, starting a new thread every time you see this happening is ridiculous.

Mods, I suggest you guys take away this guys thread starting privileges, this place is cluttered enough as is.

 

[LeafEgo]

Maple Leafs are a sticky business, on ice results don't impact valuations and cash all that much, which can spur complacency and risk aversion.

From '16-'19 the Leafs rise saw valuation grow 1.4x (median 1.4x). Over the last three years the Panthers rise has seen the teams valuation grow 2.6x (median 2.0x) - they needed to win and stop paying fans to show up.

Incompetent no doubt. Probably not indifferent, but complacent and risk averse is a similar concern. They want to win, but it's not critical to the bottom line.

 

[Mickey Marner]

¿Por qué no los dos?

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

The Leafs report podcast with Mirtle and Jonas has gone into decent detail over a number for episodes describing how top notch the Leafs facilities are. If they aren't spending the most on the NHL on them I'd be legitimately surprised.

If true, they should get a refund.

 

[ACC1224]

The NHL is a gate revenue driven league. The idea that MLSE doesn't care about more playoff games where they literally print money is just bizzaro logic

They've just been really bad at it.

They want to play as many home playoff games as possible, really no reason to believe otherwise.
regular season tickets = approx 8600 (41 games, 2nd last row), team pays the players.
playoff tickets = approx 11000 (based on 16 games, 2nd last row), team doesn't pay the players.

Couldn't imagine how much extra revenue would be generated by a trip to the finals.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

MLSE is just happy with the turf protection that the NHL gives them from another Ontario team.

 

[Mess]

The Leafs are one of the richest franchises in the NHL and they charge the highest ticket prices in the NHL therefore they earn the highest revenue potentially during an 82 game regular season.

Forbes Fortune 500 richest NHL franchises. as of December 2023. (last update).

They also dish out the highest most foolish contracts in the league because they need to validate that cost of admission to the public, their shareholders and stockholders and investors.

Next year at present they will have 4 of the top 12 highest contracts in the NHL ..

In a Salary Cap World 1 NHL team has 4 of the top 12 highest contracts and that leaves 8 other players among the 31 other teams. Leafs Share = 1/3rd or 33.33%

In the Boardroom the Leafs are WINNING like no other NHL team as a profit $$$ making machine. Why would you change course when you're #1?

As a Sports Franchise the other component that interest Fans is winning Championships. The above Financial windfall & Franchise value measured in Billions has nothing to do with winning on the ice.

Since the Salary Cap was instituted in 2005 the Leafs organization has been the LEAST successful in terms of playoff series wins/games bar none.. Even recent expansion teams like Vegas and Seattle have advanced further into the playoffs with Leafs recording 1 series win with 5 playoff games over last 19 years as their best mark. 19 seasons to win 5 of 16 required playoff games is beyond Pathetic performance.

If you graded then on playoff performance they would come #32 and LAST overall "F" for Failed misserably. They simply are prepared to roll the dice make the playoffs and hope for the best. That is because MLSE spends HARDER but not SMARTER when it comes to its secondary objective winning Championships.

In order to change the fortunes of the Sports team they have to be prepared to impact their gravy train revenue chain and it would start with those 4 Core forwards that eat up > 50% of the teams Salary Cap and have proven now year after year you can't build a successful playoff team around this TOP heavy spending strategy, because they under perform and there simply isn't enough cap space left to compensate for their shortcomings which is the limited offense provided.

New CEO Keith Pelly has declared times are changing, and MLSE does want to also win on the ice in the playoffs. Talk is cheap lets see concrete actions in terms of actual meaningful roster personnel changes to show their willing more then to just get rich at Fans expense.

 

[ToneDog]

The Leafs are one of the richest franchises in the NHL and they charge the highest ticket prices in the NHL therefore they earn the highest revenue potentially during an 82 game regular season.

Forbes Fortune 500 richest NHL franchises. as of December 2023. (last update).

View attachment 884472

View attachment 884471

They also dish out the highest most foolish contracts in the league because they need to validate that cost of admission to the public, their shareholders and stockholders and investors.

Next year at present they will have 4 of the top 12 highest contracts in the NHL ..

View attachment 884467

In a Salary Cap World 1 NHL team has 4 of the top 12 highest contracts and that leaves 8 other players among the 31 other teams. Leafs Share = 1/3rd or 33.33%

In the Boardroom the Leafs are WINNING like no other NHL team as a profit $$$ making machine. Why would you change course when you're #1?

As a Sports Franchise the other component that interest Fans is winning Championships. The above Financial windfall & Franchise value measured in Billions has nothing to do with winning on the ice.

Since the Salary Cap was instituted in 2005 the Leafs organization has been the LEAST successful in terms of playoff series wins/games bar none.. Even recent expansion teams like Vegas and Seattle have advanced further into the playoffs with Leafs recording 1 series win with 5 playoff games over last 19 years as their best mark. 19 seasons to win 5 of 16 required playoff games is beyond Pathetic performance.

If you graded then on playoff performance they would come #32 and LAST overall "F" for Failed misserably. They simply are prepared to roll the dice make the playoffs and hope for the best. That is because MLSE spends HARDER but not SMARTER when it comes to its secondary objective winning Championships.

In order to change the fortunes of the Sports team they have to be prepared to impact their gravy train revenue chain and it would start with those 4 Core forwards that eat up > 50% of the teams Salary Cap and have proven now year after year you can't build a successful playoff team around this TOP heavy spending strategy, because they under perform and there simply isn't enough cap space left to compensate for their shortcomings which is the limited offense provided.

New CEO Keith Pelly has declared times are changing, and MLSE does want to also win on the ice in the playoffs. Talk is cheap lets see concrete actions in terms of actual meaningful roster personnel changes to show their willing more then to just get rich at Fans expense.

Well at least when it comes to stupidity/incompetence, the Leafs are alone and #1.

 

[rumman]

MLSE is just happy with the turf protection that the NHL gives them from another Ontario team.

Pretty much, probably why Shanahan’s made of teflon, after all he was one of Bettman’s lackeys before becoming the worse President in the NHL………

 

[rumman]

The Leafs are one of the richest franchises in the NHL and they charge the highest ticket prices in the NHL therefore they earn the highest revenue potentially during an 82 game regular season.

Forbes Fortune 500 richest NHL franchises. as of December 2023. (last update).

View attachment 884472

View attachment 884471

They also dish out the highest most foolish contracts in the league because they need to validate that cost of admission to the public, their shareholders and stockholders and investors.

Next year at present they will have 4 of the top 12 highest contracts in the NHL ..

View attachment 884467

In a Salary Cap World 1 NHL team has 4 of the top 12 highest contracts and that leaves 8 other players among the 31 other teams. Leafs Share = 1/3rd or 33.33%

In the Boardroom the Leafs are WINNING like no other NHL team as a profit $$$ making machine. Why would you change course when you're #1?

As a Sports Franchise the other component that interest Fans is winning Championships. The above Financial windfall & Franchise value measured in Billions has nothing to do with winning on the ice.

Since the Salary Cap was instituted in 2005 the Leafs organization has been the LEAST successful in terms of playoff series wins/games bar none.. Even recent expansion teams like Vegas and Seattle have advanced further into the playoffs with Leafs recording 1 series win with 5 playoff games over last 19 years as their best mark. 19 seasons to win 5 of 16 required playoff games is beyond Pathetic performance.

If you graded then on playoff performance they would come #32 and LAST overall "F" for Failed misserably. They simply are prepared to roll the dice make the playoffs and hope for the best. That is because MLSE spends HARDER but not SMARTER when it comes to its secondary objective winning Championships.

In order to change the fortunes of the Sports team they have to be prepared to impact their gravy train revenue chain and it would start with those 4 Core forwards that eat up > 50% of the teams Salary Cap and have proven now year after year you can't build a successful playoff team around this TOP heavy spending strategy, because they under perform and there simply isn't enough cap space left to compensate for their shortcomings which is the limited offense provided.

New CEO Keith Pelly has declared times are changing, and MLSE does want to also win on the ice in the playoffs. Talk is cheap lets see concrete actions in terms of actual meaningful roster personnel changes to show their willing more then to just get rich at Fans expense.

Who here thinks Pelley is going to be any different then the previous talking heads at MLSE, guy reeks of being Richard Peddie’s mini me………