In how deep pit is Czech hockey? - is there light in the end of their tunnel?
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Hockeyfrilla
Swe prospect fanatic
themelkman
Always Delivers
I think it will come back. the CHL just imported a bunch of them
The critiques in Czech say, that there is no chance to make it better with the current people. They always argue, that there is a lot of Czech players in NHL (stars including), juniors team occasionally make a splash in WCH and even if senior team doesn't win gold, they make it to semifinals. So, there are almost zero issues.
Porky
Registered User
- Jan 22, 2019
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There are more good Swedish and Finnish prospects, yet they don't generally want to go to the CHL. Why do you think that is?
In the import draft you don't pick the best player. You pick someone who will report to your team. A lot of Czech players seem to want to play elsewhere, so more of them will also be picked in the import draft.
Now do you think their system is fine if their players want out? My belief is that the high amount of imports shows that there is indeed a problem, not the opposite. Though we already knew that with their draft record showing that they are falling behind in talent developement.
that is unfortunate
woops
You're overblowing this, hockey isn't anywhere near as popular as it used to be, soccer is by far the #1 sport in the Czech Republic, honestly hockey barely scrapes in as 3rd/4th nowadays.
Despite all this it seems to have picked up again after some pretty rough years for Czech hockey when they were developing noone (2008-2012ish), hockey in the Czech Republic isn't what it used to be but there's no danger of dropping outside of the top 6 (Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland are clearly better). Sure this was a dry year for Czechs getting drafted into the NHL but it happens.
There's this misconception that Czech hockey is supposed to be some kind of a powerhouse while it was never really the case. We're the 6th best hockey nation in the world as it's been the case for many years now and it's going to stay that way, also the IIHF is a pretty terrible measure seeing as it's a 1 game knockout and the team often makes the semis.
Despite all this it seems to have picked up again after some pretty rough years for Czech hockey when they were developing noone (2008-2012ish), hockey in the Czech Republic isn't what it used to be but there's no danger of dropping outside of the top 6 (Canada, USA, Sweden, Russia, Finland are clearly better). Sure this was a dry year for Czechs getting drafted into the NHL but it happens.
There's this misconception that Czech hockey is supposed to be some kind of a powerhouse while it was never really the case. We're the 6th best hockey nation in the world as it's been the case for many years now and it's going to stay that way, also the IIHF is a pretty terrible measure seeing as it's a 1 game knockout and the team often makes the semis.
The czech system doesn't have a good enough development system for Extraliga. The league itself is strong but the barrier of entry is rough. It indeed seems like most players will seek that development bridge elsewhere, and it's something that probably should be addressed.
Probably depends where you live, but it's definitely not true here in Brno. Also the drop of quality can't be blamed exclusively on drop of popularity of hockey. Soccer is nr. 1 and it's in even worse shape than hockey, male tennis too....there are too many people connected to sport associations that don't care about the sport but just about money government puts into it.
I would like to know how many of those new generation players are result of better work of ČSLH.
We were never nr.1, but we were somewhere between 3-5, now we are clear nr. 6 and the gap is getting bigger
JabbaJabba
Registered User
Next draft looks good for the Czechs. Also, when I look at prospect pools and young Czech players of different teams, there are usually one or two in most teams, which makes me hopeful for the future. Czech Republic will likely never be a powerhouse in terms of producing massive amounts of players, but they always have few stars backed up with a bunch of capable core players. Also they seem to have a lot of good players outside NHL who are fine for annual WC tournaments. They could use few more good defensemen though, but otherwise I expect them to be just fine in the future.
It isn't bad yet but once you start not getting to the QFs of the worlds like your dear neighbours then you have reached the point of getting really worried.
teravaineSAROS
Registered User
- Jul 29, 2015
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I feel like they're going through what Finland went through before they revamped everything.
What the Czechs really miss is a quality junior league system, where the players would develop in a competitive environment to be good enough to compete in Extraliga. Our junior leagues are an absolute disaster - too many teams, no competition, horrible playoff format etc. Because of this mess, the most talented guys go abroad to the CHL or Sweden to actually learn how to play hockey. Extraliga itself isn't really that bad, it's the junior leagues.
Has anyone actually figured what exactly happened to kick-start the Finnish system? Many non-Finnish commentators praise it(and justifiably so), but I've never actually seen a comprehensive account of how and why things changed in the last decade.
teravaineSAROS
Registered User
- Jul 29, 2015
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One big change was being more patient with big players and late bloomers. Nowadays Finland's got big boys like Laine, Rantanen, Ristolainen, Vesalainen and Barkov roaming around and guys like Aho get a chance to develop in their own pace but back in the days they would just focus on whatever young players were showing promise early on like Rajala, Pulkkinen and Granlund.
The player development itself is so much better now.
Barclay Donaldson
Registered User
How Finland has emerged as a hockey superpower
Here is a very detailed account of what happened. Reinvesting the revenue earned from hosting the World Championship in 2012 is what allowed them to start.
They also have the hidden benefit of a domestic league with less revenue, which restricts their ability to sign top name players. This gives them the ability to allow their youth and academy players to play through the organization without their development being hindered by "mercenaries." A 17 or 18-year old getting good playing time in the top domestic league like Puljujärvi and Aho for Kärpät, Rantanen for TPS, and Laine for Tappara won't happen in other leagues nearly as often as it does for Liiga.
Not only Finnish. Also Sweden (cca 2002) and USA (dont know the exact date). The answer is - youth hockey.
Czechboy
Náš f*cken barák!
- Apr 15, 2018
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We are good to excellent at developing players to 16... Then there is this huge development gap where the players have several lousy options...
Stay in Czech... Play in U18, U20 and extraliga all in the same season.... Just tossed around with no consistency.
It was scary to see the oil draft 2 Czechs... One of which has never had a game for national team because he bolted at 15. Pastrnak, Vrana, voracek...all left. There is a serious gap going on from 15 to 20.
The lack of d coming up is alarming too
Stay in Czech... Play in U18, U20 and extraliga all in the same season.... Just tossed around with no consistency.
It was scary to see the oil draft 2 Czechs... One of which has never had a game for national team because he bolted at 15. Pastrnak, Vrana, voracek...all left. There is a serious gap going on from 15 to 20.
The lack of d coming up is alarming too
Young Bukac says otherwise in regards to development of u15. He is saying we doing it differently than in Sweden and Finnland and basically we doing it wrong in his opinion. Check his FB pages if you are interested. Can you explain why you think we are good to excellent in u U16/15? I am not judging whether you are right or not, just interested in sources, your view etc. Because I don't really know.
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Thanks for that link. That story also mentioned Finnish clubs' inability to compete with Russia, Sweden and Switzerland for free agents. But hasn't this been the case for a long time? Obviously not right after the fall of communism(which is how Barkov's dad wound up in Finland), but in general Finland has always been poorer than Sweden and Switzerland, so I can't really see how that would be having an effect now, but not during the nadir of Finnish prospect development from 2002-2009.
Barclay Donaldson
Registered User
The Finnish league hasn't always been much poorer than the Swedish and Swiss leagues. In terms of revenue, since many leagues don't release their gross income, they were close to up until around 2010. Not neck and neck, but extremely competitive. As of 2018, the DEL, NLA, and SHL blew away the Liiga, which barely brought in more than 100 million euro. Both the Swedish and Swiss leagues had near double the Liiga total. This can partially be attributed to the NLA TV deal made in 2017 for 155 million francs and Sweden increasing corporate deals. Liiga is still on the 2017 made Telia deal. Even DEL has made strides past Finland, interesting read if you speak German: DEL steuert auf Umsatzsteigerung zu - Köln.Sport
There has always been a gap, but during the past ten years it has gone from small to significantly wider. Jokerit, by far the biggest team in the Liiga with attendance and finances, left in 2014. Although with how the team is currently run, Liiga is better off without them but they used to have double the attendance of teams in the middle of the pack. Other leagues have increased their revenue streams a lot, including Germany who has overtaken them. The Finnish league hasn't always been like this financially, hence why the started this system.
Conspiracy Theorist
Registered User
- Jan 30, 2016
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But you can't compare the European hockey leagues with leagues from other sports. Above all, money is not so decisive as far as the level of performance is concerned(Exceptional KHL). One should keep in mind that a top talent that still plays in the Liiga is usually much better than a North American import in the DEL or NLA. That means Finland produces cheap young players at top level who play in the Liiga for a while. These talents are usually much better than any player in the NLA or DEL. That doesn't help either the large amount of money or the stronger economic power. Because there's just a lack of talent. In the DEL anyway and in Switzerland it was better sometimes. The perfect league in europe(beside KHL) is the SHL. Top-Talents + economic strength.
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Czechboy
Náš f*cken barák!
- Apr 15, 2018
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Do you have a link for the Bukac article? I'd love to read it.
The U15 is just my theory.. can be easily disproven I'm sure. I fee like our handling of 16 to 20 year olds is awful and am very critical of that. I don't know much about 15 and am maybe just hopeful we do it right till then. Players and prospects don't hit my radar till about 16 or so and then I usually see the same bad paths being taken...
16 year old shoots out the lights in some U16 league.. goes to U18 league.. .does to second division... goes to first division... makes extraliga... sits on bench... goes back down a division. I look at his hockeyprospects profile when I hear he might be drafted and he's played on 5 teams.
OR
17 year old gets drafted in CHL Import draft.. leaves, gets punished and not selected for national team, does not make a dent in CHL, comes back to Extraliga 1 or 2 years later, never gets drafted, done with hockey shortly after. Lener called these guys 'hybrids' in that they don't learn the Czech game nor do they learn the North American Game.
I'm an Oiler's fan and we drafted D man Broberg... there was a big debate if he should come to Junior in Canada (Hamilton I think) or stay in Sweden. My overhwleming vote was to keep him in Sweden and let him develop there as Swedes develop young players amazingly. If we had drafted Has and the options were come to Hamilton (and eventually AHL) or stay in Czech and bouce around between a few leagues - I would've overwhelmingly said to get him to North America. Note: this is a bit of a bad example as Has plays in Finland but my point was more about what is best for the player.
Put another way... if I had a 16 year old son that was doing very well in hockey, I'd probably look into leaving as I don't trust the Czechs to develop a player properly from that point. Most of our best players all left young - Vrana, Pastrnak, Voracek, Gudas...
Havign said that, I wish it was much different and Czechs stayed home till they were 20 which would make all our leagues stronger as competition would increase, our JR teams would fare better and I think it'd reflect in Senior team as well. Only 18 and 19 year olds leaving should be to go straight to the NHL (eg. future superstars and generational players). But the Czech development system isn't a very good one to get to the NHL if you're not elite to begin with.
Barclay Donaldson
Registered User
What? Nowhere in that did I compare them with leagues from other sports. No other sports were even mentioned and the only leagues mentioned were Liiga, DEL, NLA, and SHL.
Money earned and performance level are not intertwined and I never made the claim they were. The KHL being subsidized primarily by government-run companies and the DEL's past financial issues are proof of that. Finland uses a unique system that works for them and players stay there. These young, homegrown Finnish players certainly aren't cheap to produce or develop, but it is cheaper than the system used by other leagues.
Prospects staying longer in Liiga compared to NLA or DEL has nothing to do with what I mentioned. One player from Germany and one player from Switzerland were drafted last year, and neither played in their home nations. Those aren't good enough leagues for prospects to develop in.
Liiga was forced into the situation due to their inability to attract top talent with the growing abilities of their rival European leagues. They now have a situation that works for them. And I certainly wouldn't say that there's "just a lack of talent" present.
