In how deep pit is Czech hockey? - is there light in the end of their tunnel?

[LoveHateLeafs]

One thing that has long puzzled me about Czech hockey is the rather peculiar(at least for the traditional hockey powers) age ratio. If you take the countries that you see every year in the World Juniors and calculate the percentage of registered male* players who are under 20 you get:

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Country[/TD]
[TD]%Male players under-20[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Canada[/TD]
[TD]80.3[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Finland[/TD]
[TD]58.9[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Russia[/TD]
[TD]84.7[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Slovakia[/TD]
[TD]78.4[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Sweden[/TD]
[TD]75.5[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Switzerland[/TD]
[TD]56.6[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]United States[/TD]
[TD]67.8[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Czech Republic[/TD]
[TD]24.6[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

Why aren't Czech youth playing hockey anymore(while it remains popular among the older cohorts)? And why is it so different from Slovakia? Are Slovak men less able to continue playing as adults due to costs?


*I'm omitting women and girls here because from what I gather the women's game isn't nearly as popular in central Europe as in North America, so I don't want that skewing the ratios.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

One thing that has long puzzled me about Czech hockey is the rather peculiar(at least for the traditional hockey powers) age ratio. If you take the countries that you see every year in the World Juniors and calculate the percentage of registered male* players who are under 20 you get:

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Country[/TD][TD]%Male players under-20[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Canada[/TD][TD]80.3[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Finland[/TD][TD]58.9[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Russia[/TD][TD]84.7[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Slovakia[/TD][TD]78.4[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Sweden[/TD][TD]75.5[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Switzerland[/TD][TD]56.6[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]United States[/TD][TD]67.8[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Czech Republic[/TD][TD]24.6[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
Why aren't Czech youth playing hockey anymore(while it remains popular among the older cohorts)? And why is it so different from Slovakia? Are Slovak men less able to continue playing as adults due to costs?


*I'm omitting women and girls here because from what I gather the women's game isn't nearly as popular in central Europe as in North America, so I don't want that skewing the ratios.

I think the problem with this is that the way of reporting player numbers varies between countries. I remember a few years ago there was an article on a Czech website about "dead souls" in Czech hockey - a lot of players who were no longer active still were registered with the federation, so that could be part of the reason why the numbers look skewed.

Not sure if this has been solved for the Czechs since then, Slovak federation has a new computer system to track and monitor the player numbers, so the Slovak numbers listed at the federation website (2091 seniors and 8819 u20 players) should be more or less realistic.

Also Czech republic has a lot of lower level regional leagues and I think those players might also be registered with the Czech federation while Slovakia only has three men's leagues.

 

[Jablkon]

Do you have a link for the Bukac article? I'd love to read it.

The U15 is just my theory.. can be easily disproven I'm sure. I fee like our handling of 16 to 20 year olds is awful and am very critical of that. I don't know much about 15 and am maybe just hopeful we do it right till then. Players and prospects don't hit my radar till about 16 or so and then I usually see the same bad paths being taken...

16 year old shoots out the lights in some U16 league.. goes to U18 league.. .does to second division... goes to first division... makes extraliga... sits on bench... goes back down a division. I look at his hockeyprospects profile when I hear he might be drafted and he's played on 5 teams.

OR

17 year old gets drafted in CHL Import draft.. leaves, gets punished and not selected for national team, does not make a dent in CHL, comes back to Extraliga 1 or 2 years later, never gets drafted, done with hockey shortly after. Lener called these guys 'hybrids' in that they don't learn the Czech game nor do they learn the North American Game.

I'm an Oiler's fan and we drafted D man Broberg... there was a big debate if he should come to Junior in Canada (Hamilton I think) or stay in Sweden. My overhwleming vote was to keep him in Sweden and let him develop there as Swedes develop young players amazingly. If we had drafted Has and the options were come to Hamilton (and eventually AHL) or stay in Czech and bouce around between a few leagues - I would've overwhelmingly said to get him to North America. Note: this is a bit of a bad example as Has plays in Finland but my point was more about what is best for the player.

Put another way... if I had a 16 year old son that was doing very well in hockey, I'd probably look into leaving as I don't trust the Czechs to develop a player properly from that point. Most of our best players all left young - Vrana, Pastrnak, Voracek, Gudas...

Havign said that, I wish it was much different and Czechs stayed home till they were 20 which would make all our leagues stronger as competition would increase, our JR teams would fare better and I think it'd reflect in Senior team as well. Only 18 and 19 year olds leaving should be to go straight to the NHL (eg. future superstars and generational players). But the Czech development system isn't a very good one to get to the NHL if you're not elite to begin with.

Here is a link to his FB page (only czech though). Check his older statuses. I don't know whether he is right or not. I mean I used to believe he is correct, but I am loosing sense what is good or wrong now

Ludek Bukac

 

[lamini]

I think the problem with this is that the way of reporting player numbers varies between countries. I remember a few years ago there was an article on a Czech website about "dead souls" in Czech hockey - a lot of players who were no longer active still were registered with the federation, so that could be part of the reason why the numbers look skewed.

Not sure if this has been solved for the Czechs since then, Slovak federation has a new computer system to track and monitor the player numbers, so the Slovak numbers listed at the federation website (2091 seniors and 8819 u20 players) should be more or less realistic.

Also Czech republic has a lot of lower level regional leagues and I think those players might also be registered with the Czech federation while Slovakia only has three men's leagues.

For many years you were considered active player unless you canceled you registration, so you could be inactive for many years and you would still be "active" player.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

For many years you were considered active player unless you canceled you registration, so you could be inactive for many years and you would still be "active" player.

Has this changed now?

 

[lamini]

Has this changed now?

No idea. Few years ago (think it was 2016) they talked alot about updating those numbers, but since high number of registered members helps you get money from goverment, I kinda doubt they ever did it.

Edit: it's not just about hockey, I remember there was some statistics showing there's 11.4 million registered sportsmen in the Czech republic (Czech republic has population of 10.6 million)

 

[slovakiasnextone]

No idea. Few years ago (think it was 2016) they talked alot about updating those numbers, but since high number of registered members helps you get money from goverment, I kinda doubt they ever did it.

Edit: it's not just about hockey, I remember there was some statistics showing there's 11.4 million registered sportsmen in the Czech republic (Czech republic has population of 10.6 million)

That's funny, I think in the FIFA big count in previous decade Slovakia had around 1 million or so soccer players, because they were counting professionals in one category and amateurs in another, so it even included players from the 5th level mountain league and so on.

 

[Czechboy]

Goaltending - no elite goalie, no guaranteed starter in NHL this season. Lots of up and comers but no one has guaranteed themselves a job. Mrazek/Rittich/Francouz are all guaranteed to be in NHL. Next group is loaded with promise but currently not sure if any of Vladar/Vanecek/Korenar/Skarek/Dostal play more than 10 games combined this season.
D - practically nothing, Hronek looks promsing.. Hajek looks promising. Masin/Zboril haven't really broken through yet. Simek/Kempny were looking like excellent 2nd pairers. Gudas is currently our most successful D
Forwards - finally have some Centres as Krejci/Hertl are a very solid 1/2. Wing is by far our big strength. We do have some good young tier 1 players in Zadina/Necas/Chytil/Kaut all coming up (I'm guessing all are in NHL this season) as well as Tier 2 guys like Spacek/Kase/Chlapik/Lauko who could crack through.

I'm sure I missed a few guys... however, it doesn't look good. Getting our asses handed to us at U18, Hlinka and U20 doesn't exactly give me much hope. A weak draft class followed by another weak draft class also concerns me. I have no reason to believe this years U20 at home or U18 will be any better.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Goaltending - no elite goalie, no guaranteed starter in NHL this season. Lots of up and comers but no one has guaranteed themselves a job. Mrazek/Rittich/Francouz are all guaranteed to be in NHL. Next group is loaded with promise but currently not sure if any of Vladar/Vanecek/Korenar/Skarek/Dostal play more than 10 games combined this season.
D - practically nothing, Hronek looks promsing.. Hajek looks promising. Masin/Zboril haven't really broken through yet. Simek/Kempny were looking like excellent 2nd pairers. Gudas is currently our most successful D
Forwards - finally have some Centres as Krejci/Hertl are a very solid 1/2. Wing is by far our big strength. We do have some good young tier 1 players in Zadina/Necas/Chytil/Kaut all coming up (I'm guessing all are in NHL this season) as well as Tier 2 guys like Spacek/Kase/Chlapik/Lauko who could crack through.

I'm sure I missed a few guys... however, it doesn't look good. Getting our asses handed to us at U18, Hlinka and U20 doesn't exactly give me much hope. A weak draft class followed by another weak draft class also concerns me. I have no reason to believe this years U20 at home or U18 will be any better.

That says the a lot.

 

[Renmar]

Goaltending - no elite goalie, no guaranteed starter in NHL this season. Lots of up and comers but no one has guaranteed themselves a job. Mrazek/Rittich/Francouz are all guaranteed to be in NHL. Next group is loaded with promise but currently not sure if any of Vladar/Vanecek/Korenar/Skarek/Dostal play more than 10 games combined this season.
D - practically nothing, Hronek looks promsing.. Hajek looks promising. Masin/Zboril haven't really broken through yet. Simek/Kempny were looking like excellent 2nd pairers. Gudas is currently our most successful D
Forwards - finally have some Centres as Krejci/Hertl are a very solid 1/2. Wing is by far our big strength. We do have some good young tier 1 players in Zadina/Necas/Chytil/Kaut all coming up (I'm guessing all are in NHL this season) as well as Tier 2 guys like Spacek/Kase/Chlapik/Lauko who could crack through.

I'm sure I missed a few guys... however, it doesn't look good. Getting our asses handed to us at U18, Hlinka and U20 doesn't exactly give me much hope. A weak draft class followed by another weak draft class also concerns me. I have no reason to believe this years U20 at home or U18 will be any better.

Well, let's see if Pesan will change something now that he has bigger authority. Anyway, I think that this upcoming draft can be pretty good actually, at least better than the last one.

 

[mattihp]

Football is growing even bigger and bigger. Do Czech youngsters play both football and ice hockey simultanously for a long time? Success either for teams, the national teams or individual players might edge these talents to one of the sports.

Many finnish ice hockey players play football too, for about two years more than their swedish counterparts. Luckily Finland will never have success in football and most of the best guys choose hockey!

 

[lamini]

Football is growing even bigger and bigger. Do Czech youngsters play both football and ice hockey simultanously for a long time? Success either for teams, the national teams or individual players might edge these talents to one of the sports.

Czech football is in similar situation as hockey. We had players like Nedved, Poborsky, Cech, 2nd and 3rd place at European Championship.
Same with men's tennis...now that Berdych is too old/injured we have no1 in top 100.
And it's similar in many other sports, nowdays our succes comes mostly from sportsman that are developed outside "system"

 

[mattihp]

Czech football is in similar situation as hockey. We had players like Nedved, Poborsky, Cech, 2nd and 3rd place at European Championship.
Same with men's tennis...now that Berdych is too old/injured we have no1 in top 100.
And it's similar in many other sports, nowdays our succes comes mostly from sportsman that are developed outside "system"

Has funding been cut alot? Seems weird.

 

[lamini]

Has funding been cut alot? Seems weird.

The whole development system in traditional sports was destroyed with the fall of communism.

Also Sazka went bankrupt ... it is czech biggest betting company and it was originaly owned by sport associations. Nowdays sport associations are funded directly by government.

But I wouldn't say funding is the main problem...it's people leading those assotiations being there for those money instead of their love of sport.

 

[Czechboy]

Czech football is in similar situation as hockey. We had players like Nedved, Poborsky, Cech, 2nd and 3rd place at European Championship.
Same with men's tennis...now that Berdych is too old/injured we have no1 in top 100.
And it's similar in many other sports, nowdays our succes comes mostly from sportsman that are developed outside "system"

First time in my life where, without a doubt, Canada is considerably better at men's tennis. Rosol and vesely never took off consistently. There really is no one else currently at all. We did win some Junior Davis cup type tournament so maybe something comes of that.

The women's side is unbelievably good. We have aging stars, current stars and up and coming future stars in doubles and singles.

Soccer might even be worse than hockey. Going into 2006 Olympics we were ranked 2 and 1 in soccer and hockey.

 

[Czechboy]

Well, let's see if Pesan will change something now that he has bigger authority. Anyway, I think that this upcoming draft can be pretty good actually, at least better than the last one.

I like Pesan... I hope he does well. But I liked Lener too. He clearly knew the problem but could never move the needle forward.

Upcoming draft... Mysak definitely didn't establish himself as a top 10 guy. Not sure about pytlik. Bednar certainly didn't look like a top rated guy unfortunately. No D looking to be in first, second or third round.

Not trying to be negative but we might go 2 years without a first rounder. Obviously, hope I'm wrong!

 

[mattihp]

The whole development system in traditional sports was destroyed with the fall of communism.

Also Sazka went bankrupt ... it is czech biggest betting company and it was originaly owned by sport associations. Nowdays sport associations are funded directly by government.

But I wouldn't say funding is the main problem...it's people leading those assotiations being there for those money instead of their love of sport.

Guys like Pavel Nedved, Petr Nedved etc. need to get into politics. Seem like clever chaps. Could turn it around.

 

[czechcanadian]

First time in my life where, without a doubt, Canada is considerably better at men's tennis. Rosol and vesely never took off consistently. There really is no one else currently at all. We did win some Junior Davis cup type tournament so maybe something comes of that.

The women's side is unbelievably good. We have aging stars, current stars and up and coming future stars in doubles and singles.

Soccer might even be worse than hockey. Going into 2006 Olympics we were ranked 2 and 1 in soccer and hockey.

It’s easy to be critical after such a poor showing. We will see.
From my limited viewings I thought Novak looked really good. Mysak was a bit of a disappointment definitely but he’s great with the club so we’ll see after this season.

As for the soccer part I’ll have to disagree. I think Czech soccer is on the rise. Especially compared to the last 15 years.

Kaderabek, Souček, Sadilek, Schick, Jankto, Vydra, Kral, and now talented youngster Adam Hlozek are very promising players. I think coach Silhavy has the right mindset with National team and is playing a lot of the young guys.
It’s really turning the corner imo.

 

[Jablkon]

Football is growing even bigger and bigger. Do Czech youngsters play both football and ice hockey simultanously for a long time? Success either for teams, the national teams or individual players might edge these talents to one of the sports.

Many finnish ice hockey players play football too, for about two years more than their swedish counterparts. Luckily Finland will never have success in football and most of the best guys choose hockey!

I used to play with some
Sparta Prague guys for one regional soccer club close to Sparta stadium) They took it just as second spare sport. This was in 90s and I think these habits are done. Imo you nailed it. We completely destroyed these old good habits and sense for the game. Mixing soccer and hockey was always good idea. Looks like Finnland still do it as it should be done.

 

[Jablkon]

I like Pesan... I hope he does well. But I liked Lener too. He clearly knew the problem but could never move the needle forward.

Upcoming draft... Mysak definitely didn't establish himself as a top 10 guy. Not sure about pytlik. Bednar certainly didn't look like a top rated guy unfortunately. No D looking to be in first, second or third round.

Not trying to be negative but we might go 2 years without a first rounder. Obviously, hope I'm wrong!

But you can not give them 9 years with no repsonsibility. I would respect Lener if he left and admit he didnt fulfill expactations. I am probably too oldschool.But, yep, credit to him for logistic changes.

 

[lamini]

As for the soccer part I’ll have to disagree. I think Czech soccer is on the rise. Especially compared to the last 15 years.

Kaderabek, Souček, Sadilek, Schick, Jankto, Vydra, Kral, and now talented youngster Adam Hlozek are very promising players. I think coach Silhavy has the right mindset with National team and is playing a lot of the young guys.
It’s really turning the corner imo.

I was comparing to Nedved and Rosicky generations that IMO both were stronger. Hockey is also in much better shape than it was between 2008-2011. We will see what will become of those young players (afterall, we were second in U20 2007 WC...not claiming they will end like that generation, they achieved more already, but I'm afraid to be optimistic these days)

 

[Czechboy]

It’s easy to be critical after such a poor showing. We will see.
From my limited viewings I thought Novak looked really good. Mysak was a bit of a disappointment definitely but he’s great with the club so we’ll see after this season.

As for the soccer part I’ll have to disagree. I think Czech soccer is on the rise. Especially compared to the last 15 years.

Kaderabek, Souček, Sadilek, Schick, Jankto, Vydra, Kral, and now talented youngster Adam Hlozek are very promising players. I think coach Silhavy has the right mindset with National team and is playing a lot of the young guys.
It’s really turning the corner imo.

Good...nothing would make me happier

 

[Czechboy]

But you can not give them 9 years with no repsonsibility. I would respect Lener if he left and admit he didnt fulfill expactations. I am probably too oldschool.But, yep, credit to him for logistic changes.

I think he's a smart guy who understood the problem... The politics of it all was too much to overcome. But, definitely, he doesn't get an A plus for the last 9 years.. C+

 

[Czechboy]

I think it's a mistake but skarek is on his way to North America... He should've done one more year in Finland as a starter IMO. I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up an AHL backup or ECHL tandem... I hate it when prospects get rushed

 

[Artorius Horus T]

I think it's a mistake but skarek is on his way to North America... He should've done one more year in Finland as a starter IMO. I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up an AHL backup or ECHL tandem... I hate it when prospects get rushed

And the team he played for, is good team. Would of gotten a full season of coaching from likes of Ville Nieminen and Pasi Nurminen, both former NHL:ers, Nieminen a Stanley Cup winner and had a decent career as a 3rd liner, on/off 2nd liner in the play-offs
Pasi Nurminen played about 130 games in the NHL as a starting goalie for the Atlanta Trashers.