If McDavid scores 150+ points this season...

[edog37]

Please return to the main board, where this kind of nonsense belongs.

Anyway, McDavid has been transcendent this season, of course, but I'm not sure he's been better than in 2021. In 2021, he was just consistently fabulous, at a level I hadn't seen since at least Mario in 1995-96 or perhaps Mario in 1993. "Partial-season" yadda-yadda, to which I say this is the best League in the world and almost 60 games is 3/4 of a full season (like Mario in 1993). McDavid's "adjusted" points projected for 2021 was around 158, equivalent to Gretzky in '82, '83, '87, or Lemieux in '88 or '89.

McDavid's 2022 playoffs might be the best through three rounds since Malkin in '09 or Lemieux in '92.

It's still very unlikely he'll hit 150 points because that's nearly impossible. But working in his favor this season are (a) the Oilers aren't trying to get the coach fired, like last year, (b) the Oilers have (seemingly) already had their big slump -- they went 3-7 in games 11 to 20 -- and McDavid kept up the pace through that slump (unlike last season), and (c) the Oilers have had a really rough schedule so far, which is starting to get "easier" (if that's the right word) from now. They also end the schedule this season with 7 of their final 12 games vs. relatively weaker teams. So, if McDavid wants to make a last-few-weeks' push towards a milestone, this is a good season to do it in.

Another typical McDavid fan boy response. He got swept in the conference final. That’s atrocious.

Crosby is far from being entrenched at 5.

On the 2018 list he was voted in at 12.

#5 votes amongst those that followed the Big Four (30 of 32 voters)

Hull - 7
Harvey - 7
Beliveau- 7
Hasek - 3
Roy - 3
Richard - 2
Crosby - 1

The two who didn't adhere to the Big Four did so to the boost of Richard/Harvey/Beliveau.

Crosby has added to his resume since the end of the 2018 season, but not nearly enough to jump up above the aforementioned legends.

Hull ended up at 5th. In Round 2 of voting, Hull and Beliveau combined for 19 of 30 votes for 5th. Crosby got 0.

Crosby at 5 is a tough sell. Crosby at 7-10 is a very easy sell.

Hull is the most popular vote at 5. It's not like his playoff resume is leaps and bounds above McDavid's.

Who are these so-called voters? Some random straw man nonsense. Sid is 5th GOAT.

 

[MadLuke]

Another typical McDavid fan boy response. He got swept in the conference final. That’s atrocious.

Not when you score 7 points against a powerhouse, trying to spin someone scoring 33 points (than participating on more than 50% of the teams 65 goals) in 16 playoff games and put his team in the conference final to be atrocious.

It would be ridiculous to call that just good, let alone mediocre, let alone bad, let alone atrocious.

I would be curious if a player ever got farther than that scoring points on more than 50% of the teams goals like that.

 

[VMBM]

Just to temper expectations - it's extremely unlikely he hits it. He was off to as good a start last year, and finished with ~123. Players other than McDavid have had better stretches than him right now through ~25 games, without hitting anywhere close to 150 points in a full season. So - 150 points is possible for him I think because of how good he is, but still extremely unlikely.

You have to excuse me a bit; I was slightly drunk when I made the thread yesterday and thus 'cut corners' without thinking much about the actual probabilities. In my initial calculations I actually had McDavid scoring 200 points! I'm glad that I at least double-checked that one.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Imagine scoring 2+PPG through three rounds in the playoffs and someone says "lol u got swept"

 

[daver]

I seem to recall that a general rule about the HOH section and discussion was to not wade into hypotheticals; to only deal with the information that we know. I.e. let's wait until something is actual history.

 

[JackSlater]

Getting swept in the conference finals & getting stood up by Makar isn’t impressive. Lemieux won back to back Smythes, & came back from cancer. He wasn’t a third liner, he was front & center. He also led Canada to its first Olympic Gold in 50 years & of course, the ‘87 Canada Cup. Crosby has an even better resume with 3 Cups, 2 Olympic Gold Medals & the golden goal. McDavid has none of these things & there are growing questions about his leadership abilities. Regular season awards don’t mean anything without playoff accomplishment. This is why Crosby is firmly entrenched as 5th GOAT & that McDavid has miles to go to even consider being in the conversation.

Yeah shame that McDavid had to face his toughest playoff opponent while the team was actually healthy and had had no chance to play a few best on best international tournaments. Lemieux is beyond McDavid unless someone is just trying to add up career value, so don't worry there. Crosby is certainly passable for McDavid, but let's see what he does before crowning him.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Who are these so-called voters? Some random straw man nonsense. Sid is 5th GOAT.

You're on the HoH forum. It's HoH voters.

You haven't even presented an argument for Crosby at 5. You're just trying to shout down anyone that disagrees with you.

Why do you place Crosby ahead of Beliveau, Harvey, Hull, Hasek, Roy, Richard?

 

[bobholly39]

His pace this year is substantially better than his pace last year, though.

The following is a jigglysquishy post from another thread:


"McDavid 2021-22 vs 2022-23 after 28 games.

22: 16 G 31 A 47 P
23: 25 G 29 A 54 P

Strongly above pace of last year. Way ahead of his goal pace last year."


After 28 games last season he was on pace for 138 points. After 28 games this season, he's on pace for 158 points.

After 24 games he had the exact same statline, 43 points, this season and last. Obviously he hit a bit of a cold stretch on game 25 last year, and is doing the opposite this year, but it's just 4 games. I wouldn't use just those 4 games to try and argue it's a "strong difference in pace".

The point is it's still very far away to try and predict he'll actually hit 150.

I did think all of last year he would hit 130, and finished a bit below. So I think 130 is very doable for him. 140, let alone 150, it's still extremely unlikely.

 

[K Fleur]

I think it’s less about winning cups and more about proving yourself on the “big stage”.

McDavid did that big time last playoffs.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

As a hockey fan I feel bad for guys like edog and Daver. Their agenda completely blocks them from just being able to sit back and enjoy what we’re in the midst of witnessing right now.

 

[Sentinel]

This is increasingly how I see it. The gap between the Big Four and five is strong enough that all but two posters in the last list adhered to it. And only one poster in the 2013 list. There's about a dozen candidates that could be argued at five, which says to me there's room for someone to come in and be better than the field but worse that the Big Four.

McDavid is on his way to his fifth Art Ross, third Hart, and fourth Pearson. He's putting up a resume that is comfortably making him the choice at 5.

He has not been playing at a peak level of a Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr. He is peaking at a level comparable to Howe. It's near impossible for him to keep up to the overall resume of Howe. Howe had 10 seasons of being top 2 in Hart voting amongst forwards. McDavid is about to do 4.

But being the consensus choice at 5 is realistic.

Right now, I see the following being popular choices for 5 (listed chronologically)

Richard
Harvey
Beliveau
Hull
Hasek
Roy
Crosby

That's going to be 95% of the picks for 5. You'll get a few Ovechkin or Jagr or Bourque too.

Looking at forwards only, can McDavid build a resume clearly above Richard/Beliveau/Hull/Crosby? I think he's in the process of doing so.

Being realistic, it'll take a Smythe and Cup to make it consensus.

Esposito is missing.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Esposito is missing.

He's never recieved a fifth place vote. His highest on the last top 100 was 12th.

There's never been a major list or publication with Esposito at 5.

 

[Voight]

Getting swept in the conference finals & getting stood up by Makar isn’t impressive. Lemieux won back to back Smythes, & came back from cancer. He wasn’t a third liner, he was front & center. He also led Canada to its first Olympic Gold in 50 years & of course, the ‘87 Canada Cup. Crosby has an even better resume with 3 Cups, 2 Olympic Gold Medals & the golden goal. McDavid has none of these things & there are growing questions about his leadership abilities. Regular season awards don’t mean anything without playoff accomplishment. This is why Crosby is firmly entrenched as 5th GOAT & that McDavid has miles to go to even consider being in the conversation.

Canada would've won in 2002 even without Lemieux. Lets not act like he carried the team.

Likewise in 87. He played great, but they probably win that tournament without him.

 

[Staniowski]

I don't think he even needs to score 150 points....we've already seen what McDavid can do, so anything fairly close, for multiple seasons, will do the trick.

There has already been people declare that McDavid is the best hockey player ever....so I assume this will continue, especially if he puts up a few seasons of 140 points, or whatever.

For younger generations, it's likely we're going to see a Big 6 emerge in the coming years....i.e. their current Big 3 - Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux - plus McDavid, Ovechkin, Crosby. Especially if Ovechkin sails past 1000 goals (which looks possible), and Crosby continues to put up significant points into his 40s (which also looks possible)....and if McDavid continues what he's doing now for several more seasons.

As is always the case, there are generational differences of opinion of this stuff....but it's clear that the O6 guys - Howe, Hull, Beliveau, etc. - will continue to fall among the hockey world as a whole.

 

[Staniowski]

Likewise in 87. He played great, but they probably win that tournament without him.

Geez, I don't know....Canada wins in '87 without Lemieux?

 

[Sentinel]

He's never recieved a fifth place vote. His highest on the last top 100 was 12th.

There's never been a major list or publication with Esposito at 5.

To me, that's a criminal underrating of a man who lead the league several times in both assists and goals.

 

[MadLuke]

Likewise in 87. He played great, but they probably win that tournament without him.

I mean we cannot talk about a closer series in any way, the final were 6-5, 6-5, 6-5, 3 OT period were played

If you remove the player that scored 11 goals and 18 points in 9 games that tourney, scored the winning goal of the series, had 7 points in the 3 final game and Canada still win, that could be true but what would be the points of talking so much about individual players

 

[Calderon]

I don't think he even needs to score 150 points....we've already seen what McDavid can do, so anything fairly close, for multiple seasons, will do the trick.

There has already been people declare that McDavid is the best hockey player ever....so I assume this will continue, especially if he puts up a few seasons of 140 points, or whatever.

For younger generations, it's likely we're going to see a Big 6 emerge in the coming years....i.e. their current Big 3 - Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux - plus McDavid, Ovechkin, Crosby. Especially if Ovechkin sails past 1000 goals (which looks possible), and Crosby continues to put up significant points into his 40s (which also looks possible)....and if McDavid continues what he's doing now for several more seasons.

As is always the case, there are generational differences of opinion of this stuff....but it's clear that the O6 guys - Howe, Hull, Beliveau, etc. - will continue to fall among the hockey world as a whole.

The bolded is pretty curious, first time I'm seeing this. You are probably on to something here. The younger big three is quite a heterogeneous trio as well, but McDavid winning a couple of Cups would drop Crosby's stock big time, assuming that CM proceeds to dominate regular seasons, whereas even with his recent uptick in goal scoring, I don't think McDavid will even sniff Ovi's goal totals. Having said that, Crosby is also doing his thing, still scoring at ppg+ at his ripe age.

 

[MadLuke]

It make a lot of sense a bit like Maurice Richard went away has a candidate for best player ever at some point and Morenz, Lalonde, Shore and others stopped to be in the conversation before that and so on.

Maybe Hasek-Jagr will joint them not easy to predict.

 

[Garbageyuk]

McDavid's 2022 playoffs might be the best through three rounds since Malkin in '09 or Lemieux in '92.

One of these things is not like the others.

 

[Dingo]

i think 150 is roughly the new 200 from the mid 80s

Jagr’s 127 isnt far off, considering era

 

[Dingo]

As a hockey fan I feel bad for guys like edog and Daver. Their agenda completely blocks them from just being able to sit back and enjoy what we’re in the midst of witnessing right now.

it could be a learning experience. a growth of character.

I don’t like Sid or McDingles, but when i release my emotions and my sense of control of the situation, i can appreciate what is happening.

 

[jigglysquishy]

i think 150 is roughly the new 200 from the mid 80s

Jagr’s 127 isnt far off, considering era

With how much scoring has increased, 200 from the mid 80s is worth more than 150 now.

Gretzky's VsX converted to 21-22 scoring environment

1984 - 195 points
1987 - 195 points
1983 - 183 points
1985 - 177 points
1986 - 175 points
1982 - 166 points
1991 - 163 points

22-23 is already higher scoring than last year. We're going to end up with 12+ guys over 100 points.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Another typical McDavid fan boy response. He got swept in the conference final. That’s atrocious.


Who are these so-called voters? Some random straw man nonsense. Sid is 5th GOAT.

Crosby was swept in a Conference finals and I believe was held pointless as well.

 

[Pominville Knows]

With how much scoring has increased, 200 from the mid 80s is worth more than 150 now.

Gretzky's VsX converted to 21-22 scoring environment

1984 - 195 points
1987 - 195 points
1983 - 183 points
1985 - 177 points
1986 - 175 points
1982 - 166 points
1991 - 163 points

22-23 is already higher scoring than last year. We're going to end up with 12+ guys over 100 points.

The more probable that McDavid can actually score 150 this or the coming years. Howe offensive game it was said, and why not.
One question though; are every Gretzky peak season to be trusted by VsX, or were there some where the benchmark had just enough separation between them to not be the number two scorer? Hardly as bad as Esposito's marks i reckon, but still just a thought.

McDavid reminds me of Makar right now as well, hardly Bobby Orr at this stage but having some moves and plays that rival Bourque and possibly Coffey. More to prove still than McDavid obviously.