If McDavid scores 150+ points this season...

[Overrated]

This site's top 200 list comically overrates DPE era players b/c of shit like VSX/hardware/AS selections when in reality most of these guys wouldn't touch a single accolade in most other eras. I'm sorry but a 3rd place scoring finish in 1989 is objectively more impressive than an Art Ross trophy in 2002 (apologies to Iginla, but he's never getting one of those in any other era). Not talking about Forsberg specifically, but seriously look at some of these players in the scoring races:

Markus Naslund led an entire half decade in points. John LeClair has FIVE year end All Star selections. And that's before we get into the full meme tier with guys like Elias/Bertuzzi/Hejduk/Guerin getting into year end AS. Ron Francis and Adam Oates at age 38/39 were still finishing top 10 in DPE scoring b/c the competition was just that easy, meanwhile Francis struggled to finish top 10 even in his mid to late 20s back when forwards were actually good.

Forsberg may have lost some of his prime years to injury but we can play the hypotheticals game and give Crosby his 2010-13 period full health and Malkin his 2012-2017 period and Lindros/Forsberg get gapped anyway. Pavel Bure only led the NHL in goals 3x against the freest competition in NHL history (seriously, Milan Hejduk and Rick Nash have Rocket Richard trophies lol), whereas Ovechkin has led the NHL in goals 9x, while collecting even better trophies in an Art Ross and 3x Hart.

Ingla was lucky his one off year happened in a time when Jagr struggled with motivation in Washington and all Lemieux Forsberg Lindros and Bure had health issues which didn't allow them to play at their very best. That doesn't make the whole era worse though. You had non-superstars lead in scoring even in today's era. Jamie Benn in 14/15. Yes Ovechkin's career is some of the best ever but I was specifically talking about the very peak meaning let's say their best consecutive 150 games or so.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Ingla was lucky his one off year happened in a time when Jagr struggled with motivation in Washington and all Lemieux Forsberg Lindros and Bure had health issues which didn't allow them to play at their very best. That doesn't make the whole era worse though. You had non-superstars lead in scoring even in today's era. Jamie Benn in 14/15. Yes Ovechkin's career is some of the best ever but I was specifically talking about the very peak meaning let's say their best consecutive 150 games or so.

Oh Benn winning an Art Ross was an absolute travesty, no argument there. Probably even more egregious than Iginla winning one. It's a jarring blemish on Crosby's career as well as the entire post-lockout, pre-McDavid era of forwards. I very much consider the early/mid 2010s a weak era, just that the DPE is even weaker. As for the injuries we can play that game for players like Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos etc too. Every era sees some of their top forwards miss significant time for various reasons.

As for best ~150 games, Ovechkin put up 121 goals and 222 points in 161 games from 2007-2009, and bagged 2x Hart, 2x Lindsay, 1x Art Ross, 2x Richard, 1 2nd place scoring finish, and 2x 1st Team AS. Bure doesn't have a 2 season span even close to that.

 

[Professor What]

Oh Benn winning an Art Ross was an absolute travesty, no argument there. Probably even more egregious than Iginla winning one. It's a jarring blemish on Crosby's career as well as the entire post-lockout, pre-McDavid era of forwards. I very much consider the early/mid 2010s a weak era, just that the DPE is even weaker. As for the injuries we can play that game for players like Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos etc too. Every era sees some of their top forwards miss significant time for various reasons.

As for best ~150 games, Ovechkin put up 121 goals and 222 points in 161 games from 2007-2009, and bagged 2x Hart, 2x Lindsay, 1x Art Ross, 2x Richard, 1 2nd place scoring finish, and 2x 1st Team AS. Bure doesn't have a 2 season span even close to that.

I fail to see how someone winning the Art Ross is a "travesty." It's a statistical trophy, not a voted one. Put up the most points, and it's yours. You can argue that a win is weak (I'd agree with you there, since we're talking about only 87 points), but travesty? No. It simply is what it is. No one else put up more points. That's on them.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

I fail to see how someone winning the Art Ross is a "travesty." It's a statistical trophy, not a voted one. Put up the most points, and it's yours. You can argue that a win is weak (I'd agree with you there, since we're talking about only 87 points), but travesty? No. It simply is what it is. No one else put up more points. That's on them.

It's absolutely on them. Healthy Crosby losing to Benn/Tavares fair and square is part of why I'll never consider him one of the top 5 forwards of all time.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

This site's top 200 list comically overrates DPE era players b/c of shit like VSX/hardware/AS selections when in reality most of these guys wouldn't touch a single accolade in most other eras. I'm sorry but a 3rd place scoring finish in 1989 is objectively more impressive than an Art Ross trophy in 2002 (apologies to Iginla, but he's never getting one of those in any other era). Not talking about Forsberg specifically, but seriously look at some of these players in the scoring races:

Markus Naslund led an entire half decade in points. John LeClair has FIVE year end All Star selections. And that's before we get into the full meme tier with guys like Elias/Bertuzzi/Hejduk/Guerin getting into year end AS. Ron Francis and Adam Oates at age 38/39 were still finishing top 10 in DPE scoring b/c the competition was just that easy, meanwhile Francis struggled to finish top 10 even in his mid to late 20s back when forwards were actually good.

Forsberg may have lost some of his prime years to injury but we can play the hypotheticals game and give Crosby his 2010-13 period full health and Malkin his 2012-2017 period and Lindros/Forsberg get gapped anyway. Pavel Bure only led the NHL in goals 3x against the freest competition in NHL history (seriously, Milan Hejduk and Rick Nash have Rocket Richard trophies lol), whereas Ovechkin has led the NHL in goals 9x, while collecting even better trophies in an Art Ross and 3x Hart.

Which DPE stars were overrated in the top 200 list? Looking at the top 20 scorers from that era (1997 to 2004):

• Seven of them (Palffy, Naslund, Tkachuk, Amonte, Weight, Roenick, Bondra) weren't in the top 200
• Six of them (Kariya, Modano, Sundin - 3rd overall in scoring, Recchi, Alfredsson, Shanahan) ranked 140th or lower, with the latter two ranking 190th or lower
• Four them ranked fairly high (69th to 134th - Selanne, Hull, Francis, Oates) - but all of them had some of the best years before or after the DPE

The only forwards who peaked primarily during the DPE and ranked higher than around 140th were Jagr (16th), Sakic (32nd), and Forsberg (51st) - and Jagr and Sakic both had good years both before and after the DPE.

If we look at the top 20 scorers from 1987 to 1994 (a very strong era):

• there are four players in the top 25 (Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier) compared to only one during the DPE (Jagr)
• there are six players in the top 50 (those four plus Yzerman & Coffey) compared to only two during the DPE (Jagr & Sakic)
• there are nine players in the top 100 (those six plus MacInnis, Kurri and Hull) compared to only four during the DPE (those two plus Selanne & Hull)
• there are 12 players in the top 150 (those nine plus Gilmour, Francis and Oates) compared to only eight during the DPE (those four plus Francis, Oates, Modano and Kariya - not to mention, many of those "DPE" stars like Hull, Oates and Francis weren't at their peak then)

I'm fine with valid criticisms of the list, but there's a massive disparity between how the top scorers of the DPE were ranked (compared to a decade before). And the subsequent generation already has five forwards in the top 100 (Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Thornton, Kane), with McDavid obviously being there now and several more on their way. You're making it sound like Markus Naslund and John LeClair are being ranked alongside Steve Yzerman and Nikita Kucherov.

 

[Overrated]

Which DPE stars were overrated in the top 200 list? Looking at the top 20 scorers from that era (1997 to 2004):

• Seven of them (Palffy, Naslund, Tkachuk, Amonte, Weight, Roenick, Bondra) weren't in the top 200
• Six of them (Kariya, Modano, Sundin - 3rd overall in scoring, Recchi, Alfredsson, Shanahan) ranked 140th or lower, with the latter two ranking 190th or lower
• Four them ranked fairly high (69th to 134th - Selanne, Hull, Francis, Oates) - but all of them had some of the best years before or after the DPE

The only forwards who peaked primarily during the DPE and ranked higher than around 140th were Jagr (16th), Sakic (32nd), and Forsberg (51st) - and Jagr and Sakic both had good years both before and after the DPE.

If we look at the top 20 scorers from 1987 to 1994 (a very strong era):

• there are four players in the top 25 (Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier) compared to only one during the DPE (Jagr)
• there are six players in the top 50 (those four plus Yzerman & Coffey) compared to only two during the DPE (Jagr & Sakic)
• there are nine players in the top 100 (those six plus MacInnis, Kurri and Hull) compared to only four during the DPE (those two plus Selanne & Hull)
• there are 12 players in the top 150 (those nine plus Gilmour, Francis and Oates) compared to only eight during the DPE (those four plus Francis, Oates, Modano and Kariya - not to mention, many of those "DPE" stars like Hull, Oates and Francis weren't at their peak then)

I'm fine with valid criticisms of the list, but there's a massive disparity between how the top scorers of the DPE were ranked (compared to a decade before). And the subsequent generation already has five forwards in the top 100 (Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Thornton, Kane), with McDavid obviously being there now and several more on their way. You're making it sound like Markus Naslund and John LeClair are being ranked alongside Steve Yzerman and Nikita Kucherov.

Well the if Forsberg Lindros and Bure had long super successful careers they would likely be in the top50. Forsberg is ranked #51 and he had a very successful career but not a very long one. Also Lemieux was the highest PPG of the era and despite being post prime and missed several seasons to retirement and injury it's fair to include him there.

 

[Overrated]

Oh Benn winning an Art Ross was an absolute travesty, no argument there. Probably even more egregious than Iginla winning one. It's a jarring blemish on Crosby's career as well as the entire post-lockout, pre-McDavid era of forwards. I very much consider the early/mid 2010s a weak era, just that the DPE is even weaker. As for the injuries we can play that game for players like Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos etc too. Every era sees some of their top forwards miss significant time for various reasons.

As for best ~150 games, Ovechkin put up 121 goals and 222 points in 161 games from 2007-2009, and bagged 2x Hart, 2x Lindsay, 1x Art Ross, 2x Richard, 1 2nd place scoring finish, and 2x 1st Team AS. Bure doesn't have a 2 season span even close to that.

I wanted to write ~250 games I mistyped but yeah Ovi gets another 50 goal 109 point season after that as well. He has an amazing playoff run too in 08/09. Bure led in goals twice the late 90s early 2000s. From 97/98 to 00/01 Bure scored 181 goals in 249 games. Scoring league wide was also slightly lower than during Ovi's run. That is a pretty sick run and these are often solo McDavid-esque goals way more impressive than one timers. It's possible that prime only Ovechkin was still better but it's pretty close.

 

[jigglysquishy]

A big reason why the DPE is considered weak is because the stars were hurt.

Take the usual suspects. Lemieux, Bure, Lindros, Kariya, Forsberg. Give them the health that stars in 1990-1995 and 2005-2010 had. So they're not all playing every game, but they're playing substantially more than they did.

How much better does the era look?

Does Lindros win an Art Ross or another Hart without the injuries slowing him down?

Jagr and Sakic hitting 110+ points in 2000, with Jagr hitting 120 and Bure hitting 60 goals and 100 points.

Does Lemieux win an Art Ross in there? Does a super PPG Forsberg hit 110 points in a very low scoring era in 2004?

Do Kariya and Selanne each put up a couple more 100 point seasons?

Looking at the entire history of the NHL there's never been an era where the best players have been so injury riddled as 1998-2004. The injuries aren't just hitting raw point totals, but PPG as well.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Which DPE stars were overrated in the top 200 list? Looking at the top 20 scorers from that era (1997 to 2004):

• 
  
• Seven of them (Palffy, Naslund, Tkachuk, Amonte, Weight, Roenick, Bondra) weren't in the top 200
• Six of them (Kariya, Modano, Sundin - 3rd overall in scoring, Recchi, Alfredsson, Shanhan, LeClair) ranked 140th or lower, with the latter two ranking 190th or lower
• Four them ranked fairly high (69th to 134th - Selanne, Hull, Francis, Oates) - but all of them had some of the best years before or after the DPE

The only forwards who peaked primarily during the DPE and ranked higher than around 140th were Jagr (16th), Sakic (32nd), and Forsberg (51st) - and Jagr and Sakic both had good years both before and after the DPE.

If we look at the top 20 scorers from 1987 to 1994 (a very strong era):

• there are four players in the top 25 (Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier) compared to only one during the DPE (Jagr)
• there are six players in the top 50 (those four plus Yzerman & Coffey) compared to only two during the DPE (Jagr & Sakic)
• there are nine players in the top 100 (those six plus MacInnis, Kurri and Hull) compared to only four during the DPE (those two plus Selanne & Hull)
• there are 12 players in the top 100 (those nine plus Gilmour, Francis and Oates) compared to only eight during the DPE (those four plus Francis, Oates, Modano and Kariya)

I'm fine with valid criticisms of the list, but there's a massive disparity between how the top scorers of the DPE were ranked (compared to a decade before). And the subsequent generation already has five forwards in the top 100 (Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Thornton, Kane), with McDavid obviously being there now and several more on their way. You're making it sound like Markus Naslund and John LeClair are being ranked alongside Steve Yzerman and Nikita Kucherov.

Jagr's ranking is fine. Sakic ahead of Bossy/Yzerman, Sakic got the majority of his accolades against bad players in the early 2000s while the likes of Hejduk/Nash were bringing home trophies alongside him. Bossy/Yzerman meanwhile had to go through the meat grinder that was Gretzky/Lemieux (moreso Yzerman than Bossy) and got the short end of the stick with some impossible to win trophies/scoring races/AS voting finishes. Bossy I suppose you can use the longevity argument against but you can't even do that vs Yzerman. Forsberg ahead of Malkin is a meme as well considering Forsberg has less hardware than Malkin against easier competition, while Malkin also has the advantage in terms of peak and longevity. Forsberg doesn't even have the "clutch" narrative over Malkin considering Malkin has the most dominant non-McDrai playoff run of the 21st century. Selanne/Hull/Francis/Oates are probs ranked around where they should be although personally I'd move Selanne down a bit and Hull/Oates up a bit.

Guys like Modano/Alfredsson/Elias/LeClair don't belong on the list period. Modano/Alfredsson are one step away from the oft derided compilers on this sub (Cicarelli, Nieuwendyk etc) and have almost no accolades in the easiest era to collect hardware in NHL history. Seriously, even Milan Hejduk has a better trophy case than these two lol. Elias doesn't even have the stats to enter compiler tier but people like to cope that "his offense was held back by New Jersey's system" and look the other way at the fact that he scored at a comparable rate to players like Sykora/Langenbrunner/Holik. I don't even know if LeClair belongs in the top 250 considering the guy got all his year end ASes the Clark Gillies way where absolutely nobody else competent played his position for a good half decade and he just needed to ride Lindros' coattails then walk up and collect trophy.

 

[JackSlater]

It's absolutely on them. Healthy Crosby losing to Benn/Tavares fair and square is part of why I'll never consider him one of the top 5 forwards of all time.

Eh, he probably wins in extremely uninspiring fashion if he didn't get the mumps in December. Even Howe got outscored by Earl Reibel in his mid 20s while he missed a few games with an injury. Gretzky and Lemieux are likely the only players in history that are pretty much untouchable in terms of scoring during their primes assuming they are reasonably healthy (and not against each other).

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

I wanted to write ~250 games I mistyped but yeah Ovi gets another 50 goal 109 point season after that as well. He has an amazing playoff run too in 08/09. Bure led in goals twice the late 90s early 2000s. From 97/98 to 00/01 Bure scored 181 goals in 249 games. Scoring league wide was also slightly lower than during Ovi's run. That is a pretty sick run and these are often solo McDavid-esque goals way more impressive than one timers. It's possible that prime only Ovechkin was still better but it's pretty close.

Honestly after having Draisaitl on my team I've learned to ignore the "flashiness" of how some players look. Ales Hemsky and Taylor Hall did way more end to end highlight reel goals/sick dekes than Draisaitl, but they're unfit to hold Draisaitl's jock. The player with the elite hockey IQ whose in the right spots before the play even develops and is more efficient with his puck protection/puck distribution is a vastly superior player. He doesn't need to dangle opposing defensemen b/c they can't get the puck from him anyway and he can do a backhand saucer pass to a forward who'll be in the slot a half second later. He doesn't need to chase down the puck with a burst of speed and charge down the boards b/c he already knew where the puck was going and already generated a scoring chance. Not saying Bure is as bad as Ales Hemsky or that Ovechkin didn't have his own flashy moments, but the player whose doing McDavid esque 1v9 plays isn't necessarily the more effective player.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

A big reason why the DPE is considered weak is because the stars were hurt.

Take the usual suspects. Lemieux, Bure, Lindros, Kariya, Forsberg. Give them the health that stars in 1990-1995 and 2005-2010 had. So they're not all playing every game, but they're playing substantially more than they did.

How much better does the era look?

Does Lindros win an Art Ross or another Hart without the injuries slowing him down?

Jagr and Sakic hitting 110+ points in 2000, with Jagr hitting 120 and Bure hitting 60 goals and 100 points.

Does Lemieux win an Art Ross in there? Does a super PPG Forsberg hit 110 points in a very low scoring era in 2004?

Do Kariya and Selanne each put up a couple more 100 point seasons?

Looking at the entire history of the NHL there's never been an era where the best players have been so injury riddled as 1998-2004. The injuries aren't just hitting raw point totals, but PPG as well.

The injuries absolutely hurt the product of the DPE and maybe in an alternate universe where they all stay healthy, you end up with Jagr/Lindros/Forsberg etc dueling it out at the top at ~120 point paces for nearly a decade. Unfortunately that is not the universe we live in. We live in a universe where Lindros/Forsberg were missing entire seasons and Jagr got mental boomed in Washington. We live in a universe where Markus Naslund sits atop the throne as the king of productivity and is the gold standard player for 2000-2004 VsX adjustments.

Eh, he probably wins in extremely uninspiring fashion if he didn't get the mumps in December. Even Howe got outscored by Earl Reibel in his mid 20s while he missed a few games with an injury. Gretzky and Lemieux are likely the only players in history that are pretty much untouchable in terms of scoring during their primes assuming they are reasonably healthy (and not against each other).

I'd give Crosby benefit of the doubt if he didn't go ahead and do it again the season right after. Luckily Patty Kane saved the NHL from having to jot down Jamie Benn's name in the record books as a 2 time Art Ross winner.