OT: Hurricanes Lounge XLVI: Really, It's All About Beer and Bojangles

Unsustainable

Seth Jarvis has Big Kahunas
Apr 14, 2012
39,205
109,318
North Carolina
“Gun laws” doesn’t have to mean restrictions on an individual’s ability to possess a gun. That term can also apply to restrictions on manufacturing, sales, and distribution. I find it highly, highly doubtful that regulations on gun manufacturing, sales, and distribution lead to higher gun violence.
Ive said before, if an under aged person commits a crime with their parents guns, the parents should hold responsibility in part.

But mental illness issues need to be discussed, every one of the kids seems to have been on medications that can cause violent outbursts, tendencies, or suicidal thoughts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveG

Lempo

Recovering Future Considerations Truther
Feb 23, 2014
27,777
86,915
“Gun laws” doesn’t have to mean restrictions on an individual’s ability to possess a gun. That term can also apply to restrictions on manufacturing, sales, and distribution. I find it highly, highly doubtful that regulations on gun manufacturing, sales, and distribution lead to higher gun violence.
A silent alarm went just off at the Department of Mutual Assured Destruction.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: tarheelhockey

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,564
103,111
Well, not to defend anyone, but "rates" can mean a variety of things. You are showing what I think most advocates of gun controls would show which is the rates per capita. A lot of gun control critics I've seen point to rates of death per year in those cities, which would show they are higher. Of course, that is misleading because of the shear size, but it is a "rate" that can be used to show something even if it is (intentionally?) misleading.

Sure, I thought about commenting on that in my initial post, but when discussing entities of different sizes, it was obvious that the rates really have to be per capita to be meaningful. Of course Chicago with $2.7M people is going to have more crimes per year than another city with 100,000 people.

I agree with you, it's intentionally misleading if someone is using crimes per year as a "rate".
 
  • Like
Reactions: MinJaBen

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,564
103,111
But mental illness issues need to be discussed,
It doesn't need to be discussed, it needs to be addressed, yet those in power are doing everything possible to make healthcare, which mental health is part of, more expensive and harder to obtain.

Even thought it needs to be addressed, the link between mental health and mass shootings isn't as great as you are making it out to be. It's the other side of the coin.
 

Blueline Bomber

AI Generated Minnesota Wild
Sponsor
Oct 31, 2007
41,112
48,950
Nah, it's okay. Our upcoming administration has "a concept of a plan" for the replacement of the ACA. And with that party controlling all three branches of government, there's basically no red tape to stop that plan. I'm sure once he moves past the concept stage and gets to the planning stage, it'll be a real quick transition. But he's got to repeal the ACA first...for reasons...
 

Derailed75

Registered User
Jan 5, 2021
5,453
13,141
Danville
Nah, it's okay. Our upcoming administration has "a concept of a plan" for the replacement of the ACA. And with that party controlling all three branches of government, there's basically no red tape to stop that plan. I'm sure once he moves past the concept stage and gets to the planning stage, it'll be a real quick transition. But he's got to repeal the ACA first...for reasons...
Well not that the system before was great or anything but the ACA was a huge failure driving rates through the roof and nothing that was promised came through like the whole "you can keep your doctor" thing.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,564
103,111
Well not that the system before was great or anything but the ACA was a huge failure driving rates through the roof and nothing that was promised came through like the whole "you can keep your doctor" thing.
I don't know if it was a "huge failure", but it certainly wasn't a shining success either. It had good parts and bad parts.

I'm not sure it had the impact on "driving rates through the roof though" that many claim though. It had some impact for sure due to mandates, but if you look at the trend of rate increases, it's basically a straight line trend from 2000-2023. It didn't lower premiums when it came about in 2010, but would have the rates flattened out or would have the rate of increase slowed without ACA? Who knows but I'm skeptical.

Also, The profits of some of the major insurers increased dramatically over this time as well, so it's hard to know how much of the rate increases are due to that as well since many of them are now making record profits.

It's a lot more complicated than just 1 factor.

Image 12-18-24 at 8.15 PM.jpeg
 

Blueline Bomber

AI Generated Minnesota Wild
Sponsor
Oct 31, 2007
41,112
48,950
Well not that the system before was great or anything but the ACA was a huge failure driving rates through the roof and nothing that was promised came through like the whole "you can keep your doctor" thing.

The fact of the matter is, the ACA covered 21 million Americans in 2024. That’s 21 million Americans that will be left out of luck if it’s repealed and no suitable replacement is offered. And considering I don’t think the upcoming administration has ever presented anything close to a healthcare coverage plan, even in 2016 (beyond “Oh, I’ve got one, trust me”), it doesn’t give a lot of hope that that replacement will be coming any time soon.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
5,513
10,694
Low country coast
The issue in your country isn't laws. It's the culture. There are countries with far more guns that have fewer school shootings per capita and countries with next to guns with fewer school shootings per capita.
keep going, I'm listening....

Until you blame it on *my* culture, which isnt the one with the violence or incarceration issue.

“Gun laws” doesn’t have to mean restrictions on an individual’s ability to possess a gun. That term can also apply to restrictions on manufacturing, sales, and distribution. I find it highly, highly doubtful that regulations on gun manufacturing, sales, and distribution lead to higher gun violence.
And they won't stop any either.

Again, propose a specific law that doesn't infringe on the 2A that would stop this...

protip- You can't. There isn't one
 
  • Like
Reactions: WreckingCrew

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
86,971
145,533
Bojangles Parking Lot
And they won't stop any either.

Again, propose a specific law that doesn't infringe on the 2A that would stop this...

protip- You can't. There isn't one

I mean, it’s not that hard to imagine laws that regulate the manufacturing and sales of firearms without violating the 2A. A personal right to bear arms doesn’t equate to a right to conduct unregulated firearms-related business.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
5,513
10,694
Low country coast
I mean, it’s not that hard to imagine laws that regulate the manufacturing and sales of firearms without violating the 2A. A personal right to bear arms doesn’t equate to a right to conduct unregulated firearms-related business.
Only if you're a statist.

Preventing manufacure of firearms doesn't mean you cant keep and bear them. But, good luck finding them after we ban their manufacture.

This is why we dont compromise with you, and never will.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
86,971
145,533
Bojangles Parking Lot
Only if you're a statist.

Preventing manufacure of firearms doesn't mean you cant keep and bear them. But, good luck finding them after we ban their manufacture.

This is why we dont compromise with you, and never will.

Ok, but I answered your question. Can guns be regulated without violating the 2A? Yes they can. Much like speech can be regulated without violating the 1A, etc.

However you imagine yourself reacting in that scenario is on you.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
5,513
10,694
Low country coast
LOL to this.

ETA - nevermind, not worth it in the echo chamber of statism.

And however you imagine that going, is also for you. Theres a reason it hasn't been tried on a national level.

Oh, I thought you were an American. Where are you from?
What kind of American are you? <smirking head tilt>
 
Last edited:

Derailed75

Registered User
Jan 5, 2021
5,453
13,141
Danville
Do you have a data source for that? I won't get into the gun debate as it's pointless, but when I did a google search right now, the data I was able to find doesn't support your assertion.

1) STATES: here are the states with the most gun deaths / 100,000 people. None of them are known to have "stiff" gun laws, in fact, quite the opposite.


2) CITIES: This is from 2021, but here are the cities with the highest gun violence. NYC is way down on the list. Chicago and Oakland are in the middle but most of the cities at the top are not known for strict gun laws (although I admit I don't know each major cities gun laws). Memphis consistently comes up as #1 on many lists and they don't have strict gun laws.


Even if you look at total crime rate, I don't see the connection you are making (google cities with highest crime rate).

And if you look at murder rates, it doesn't show that either.

What the data does show is that higher concentration of those living in poverty / higher rates of unemployment and areas that are more racially segregated have more gun violence. That makes sense to me.

Again, I'm not wading into the gun debate as there are a lot of factors at play here, but I'd like to see the data that supports "Stronger gun laws = Higher crime rates".


Sorry was pretty busy. I know the source here is Wikipedia but this is from a search "Chicago Crime Rate" just the first paragraph.

The city of Chicago has one of the highest murder rates among large cities. Despite generally strict gun laws compared to neighboring areas, there are still many illegal guns in Chicago. It is estimated that 80% of homicides in Chicago are committed with firearms.[181] Chicago recorded 780 murders in 2020. This figure represents an increase of more than 55% over 2019.[182] On the Fourth of July weekend 2021, at least 100 people, mostly African-American, were shot, 18 of them fatally. Murders for 2021, are trending higher than
 

Svechhammer

THIS is hockey?
Jun 8, 2017
26,106
94,707
It doesn't need to be discussed, it needs to be addressed, yet those in power are doing everything possible to make healthcare, which mental health is part of, more expensive and harder to obtain.

Even thought it needs to be addressed, the link between mental health and mass shootings isn't as great as you are making it out to be. It's the other side of the coin.
Oh I think there's a very good conversation to be had about mental health that will make people on every extreme side uncomfortable.
 

MrazeksVengeance

VENGEANCE
Feb 27, 2018
7,619
28,624
keep going, I'm listening....

Until you blame it on *my* culture, which isnt the one with the violence or incarceration issue.


And they won't stop any either.

Again, propose a specific law that doesn't infringe on the 2A that would stop this...

protip- You can't. There isn't one
Oh, I thought you were an American. Where are you from?
@ both I’d say USA isn’t a land of unified culture

@Borsig to follow up on this, I’d say poorly taught respect to ownership and usage of firearms transcends political spectrum (I don’t consider you be a typical part of either camp)

On a personal note - I like guns. Dad had a revolver (currently is with my brother in law, because he has a license) and I’d like to get a license once me and D-V get our own property of some size. It’s just… approach of some US folks to guns is as alien to me as to US people the idea of 19 and 17 year old having a casual hook up without issues.

Always liked this one from Samuel L. Jackson


EDIT: apparently there is a user named “BOTH”
 
  • Like
Reactions: AhosDatsyukian

Unsustainable

Seth Jarvis has Big Kahunas
Apr 14, 2012
39,205
109,318
North Carolina
US crime stats dramatically change if you exclude like 5 cities. Yes there is an issue with young urban areas culture.

School shootings is a mental illness issue, issues we didn't have when you could mail order guns to your house with out a background check.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Borsig

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,564
103,111
Sorry was pretty busy. I know the source here is Wikipedia but this is from a search "Chicago Crime Rate" just the first paragraph.

The city of Chicago has one of the highest murder rates among large cities. Despite generally strict gun laws compared to neighboring areas, there are still many illegal guns in Chicago. It is estimated that 80% of homicides in Chicago are committed with firearms.[181] Chicago recorded 780 murders in 2020. This figure represents an increase of more than 55% over 2019.[182] On the Fourth of July weekend 2021, at least 100 people, mostly African-American, were shot, 18 of them fatally. Murders for 2021, are trending higher than
If your data is 1 city out of many, that's very annecdotal.

As I showed in my post, looking at a larger set of data, it doesn't support the assertion.

Also, from Wikipedia, here are the cities with the highest violent crime rates (you have to sort by violent crimes). There are 24 cities with > 1000 per 100,000 and it's not just ones with strict gun laws.

 
Last edited:

Svechhammer

THIS is hockey?
Jun 8, 2017
26,106
94,707
US crime stats dramatically change if you exclude like 5 cities. Yes there is an issue with young urban areas culture.

School shootings is a mental illness issue, issues we didn't have when you could mail order guns to your house with out a background check.
It's almost like most 2A advocates conveniently miss the "Well Regulated" part of that amendment
 

MinJaBen

Canes Sharks Boy
Sponsor
Dec 14, 2015
21,496
83,423
Durm
Always liked this one from Samuel L. Jackson


If you think American's resist regulating guns, try regulating how they raise their children. Which, to Mr. Jackson's point, is a big part of the problem but will never be a solution. Shockingly, both the left and right in this country agree pretty strongly on being able to raise their children as they see fit, but of course don't agree on the "as they see fit" part.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Svechhammer

MrazeksVengeance

VENGEANCE
Feb 27, 2018
7,619
28,624
If you think American's resist regulating guns, try regulating how they raise their children. Which, to Mr. Jackson's point, is a big part of the problem but will never be a solution. Shockingly, both the left and right in this country agree pretty strongly on being able to raise their children as they see fit, but of course don't agree on the "as they see fit" part.
I agree. Doesn’t mean I was wrong though.
 

WreckingCrew

Registered User
Feb 4, 2015
13,696
41,707
The fact of the matter is, the ACA covered 21 million Americans in 2024. That’s 21 million Americans that will be left out of luck if it’s repealed and no suitable replacement is offered. And considering I don’t think the upcoming administration has ever presented anything close to a healthcare coverage plan, even in 2016 (beyond “Oh, I’ve got one, trust me”), it doesn’t give a lot of hope that that replacement will be coming any time soon.
The ACA certainly helped a lot of people who didn't have insurance to get insurance, but it also DRASTICALLY reduced the quality and coverage of insurance. Unless you were in the poverty level where you got great health insurance for cheap, most of those folks only got "catastrophic" plans (cheap premium with super-high deductibles & OOP maximums) basically just to avoid the penalties. My company, to keep our rate from tripling immediately, switched us from a copay-based health insurance to a HDHP, as did countless other companies. Now I get to pay an insurance premium AND for all my healthcare costs until I hit that high-deductible and then pay coinsurance until a higher out of pocket maximum. So now I have health insurance that is cost-prohibitive to use unless I'm in dire need. And of course because EVERYONE has insurance, there's less competition and that's really just given them even more power over networks, coverage, and medical decisions.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
5,513
10,694
Low country coast
It's almost like most 2A advocates conveniently miss the "Well Regulated" part of that amendment
It's almost like 2a haters don't know that well regulated meant "well equipped" in the textual language of the time and convinently miss the 'shall not be infringed' part.

Despite your fetish for controlling my property, and 2a rights you'll never do it without force. So if you're willing to go that far, so am I.

"Envision that however you want"
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Svechhammer

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad