OT: Hurricanes Lounge XL. 99 Luftballons

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Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
5,177
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Low country coast
Americans hate being told what to do more than any people on Earth.

And yet...... some act shocked when you get people like me who refuse to be told what to do, when whatever they're doing us hurting no one.

No. Now what?


I've not seen this much tongue in cheek trashing of conservative thought since the last time I peeked at DU for a good laugh.

What- does no one want to talk about the impending manifesto drop from the Nashville shooter? No?
 
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Jul 18, 2010
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My wife is a lifelong elementary school educator. My grandmother was a lifelong elementary school educator, my grandfather was a teacher and then a high school principal for 10 years. Your whole entire post is complete nonsense and reeks of conspiracy filled delusions. I don’t know what media you’re consuming but you’re being lied to plain and simple.

Public education is failing because of republican policies period, they want it that way so they can privatize education just like they want to privatize everything else. It’s one part greed and one part indoctrination of children to their ever shrinking voter base. Maybe you’re fine with that for your kids but taxpayers shouldn’t foot that bill, pony up if you want to send your kids to conservative training camp.

“Your whole post reeks of conspiracy filled delusions. I don’t know what media you’re consuming but you’re being lied to plain and simple.”

“On the contrary, the entire problem is, of course, the political party I don’t like and they’re to blame for all of this. Obviously.”
 
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Blueline Bomber

AI Generated Minnesota Wild
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Oct 31, 2007
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And yet...... some act shocked when you get people like me who refuse to be told what to do, when whatever they're doing us hurting no one.

No. Now what?


I've not seen this much tongue in cheek trashing of conservative thought since the last time I peeked at DU for a good laugh.

What- does no one want to talk about the impending manifesto drop from the Nashville shooter? No?

Why talk about another school shooting when it'll boil down to what all of them have?

"Hey, we need to have some semblance of gun control so this stops happening."
"My second amendment rights though!"
"Okay, how about improving healthcare so the mentally unstable can seek help instead of going straight to violence?"
"No, that's socialism!"
"Well, do you have any suggestions?"
"More guns in schools will prevent school shootings!"
 

Blueline Bomber

AI Generated Minnesota Wild
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Oct 31, 2007
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Just so I’m clear:

The government should infringe on the First Amendment rights of its citizens by banning dragshow readings at libraries, supposedly to protect the children.
Yet the leading cause of death among children is firearms, and we’ve had more school shootings in the past X years than most first world counties have had in their entire existence. But oh boy, if the government infringes on that Second Amendment right…

Just want to see what level of hypocrisy we’re settling in at.
 

ndp

Hurricanes Pessimist
Oct 29, 2015
1,460
4,380
“Your whole post reeks of conspiracy filled delusions. I don’t know what media you’re consuming but you’re being lied to plain and simple.”

“On the contrary, the entire problem is, of course, the political party I don’t like and they’re to blame for all of this. Obviously.”
When it comes to public education one political party is introducing wide spread legislation to defund public schools. Crippling mostly inner city and rural schools. And funnel that money into the pockets of their donors and in some cases families via charter schools, where they don’t have to adhere to state guidelines for educators or curriculums.

The other party is trying to inject more money into the public system to help give teachers more resources to better educate kids.

So yeah one political party is to blame for a lot of this. Obviously.

I challenge anyone to go spend a week in a title one public school and then lobby to take funding and resources away from those educators. Or sit through a counseling session with your 4th grade student Jimmy Bob and grandmaw cause he couldn’t figure out how to use the Narcan and watched mommy die on the couch.
 

NotOpie

"Puck don't lie"
Sponsor
Jun 12, 2006
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But the fact is that no matter what the ideology of the parents may be, the success of a child's education will mostly come down to things that have nothing to do with the alleged ideology of teachers one way or another. Is the child curious? Is the child supported? Does the child have learning resources at their disposal? Does the child have a cohort that expects them to learn, or a cohort that expects them to fail?

Kids are incredible learning machines, but they have to get plugged into the right ecosystem to activate that urge to learn.
TLDR: I'm an old guy, was serendipitously lucky that I had good teachers, and benefitted from a simpler curriculum focused more on "thinking" as opposed to "what to think".

I put these two Hank quotes together because I believe it get's to the heart of the matter. Politics, bias, in vogue social theories, common core, etc. all have done one thing to public education....it has made it more complex, not in the way that the world keeps getting more complex (I remain amazed at how complex the curriculum for my kids was). I'm not advocating for getting back to the basics of 'readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmatic' only. But my sense is that what Hank pointed to is that support for curiosity, development of critical thinking skills, inculcating problem solving into the curriculum, etc. is something that has been at best minimized and at worst lost. Our society has added so much around the edges of each subject, that the necessary kernels of those subjects can become obfuscated.

I'm not talking about including the true history of race in the teaching of history; that should be a given and be part of the general understanding of the American experiment. Context is extremely important to understanding how we got from where we were to where we are today.

I'm one of the older guys here on HF26 and when I went to elementary school in Virginia, I believe the schools had only been desegregated a couple of years before I got there. In my first Virginia history course that I can remember (in VA you took VA history something like 4 or 5 times over your 12 years of school because, Virginia), one of the earliest lessons was about 1619 and it was called "The Red Letter Year" because that's when tobacco was exported back to Europe, women came to Jamestown, and the first slaves arrived. Our teacher (and subsequent teachers of VA history that I had) took the time to discuss slavery's impact going forward (heinous practice, but one that drove significant segments of the agricultural economy), tobacco's impact on the economy yet with serious negative consequences, and how women, well they were the one really good thing that happened that year. It wasn't until I was in high school that we learned about the Tulsa massacre and such things. But it wasn't whitewashed. The plight of black folks wasn't minimized and was pretty unvarnished. And while we likely didn't learn as much about African American heroes as we could or should have, during our junior year visit to Washington DC, we learned that the enslaved built a great deal of our nation's capital, for example. Yet they didn't have the same freedoms and benefits that America provided others.

Throughout all of that we learned the other basics of history. We had civics and American government classes. We had the usual science triumvirate of biology, chemistry, and physics. We had English literature sprinkled with a good bit of world literature. Now I'm not pining for the good old days and I know that I was very fortunate in that I had teachers who cared and who were open minded for the most part. Throughout all of that we were guided to think critically about all things, what was right and what was wrong, what was accepted at a point in time that is no longer acceptable, and how to construct and deconstruct logical arguments.

And yes, I now see the value to the much maligned and hated "word problems" in my various math classes as they were pure, simple applications of the principles we were attempting to learn. We had mechanical drawing courses (something like basic drafting) which was one of the simplest applications of geometry that I had experienced as a youth. When my kids were at Broughton in Raleigh, they were one of the last cohorts to have the option of taking shop classes. That money was ear-marked for the newer technology curriculum (perhaps rightly so).

I apologize for the long diatribe, but my point is, the curriculum was simpler and we were fortunate to be well guided, but the emphasis provided the basis of "learning how to learn", not learning what to think. That appears to be the main complaint of some of the parents that I know. They just want their kids to be given the tools to discern right from wrong, true from false. They fear that has been replaced by more of the "what" and less to none of the "how and why".
The argument that "if public schools don't teach my children the way I want them to be taught, I should be able to put them in a school of my choice, with the funding that goes with it" is a reasonable argument, and it becomes more compelling as the learning environment becomes more politicized. In 2022-2023, 7.5% of public school students in the US are attending charter schools, and that number is going to keep going up.
Florida just passed one of the most comprehensive "the funding goes with the child" laws in the country. When people have argued against vouchers and charter schools they often bring up the stats about how the test scores aren't always significantly better at those alternatives. Yet, they never complete the research enough to find out that the schools that now compete against those others have improved test scores as well. Competition in essence drove improvements across the entire system.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
5,177
10,076
Low country coast
Just so I’m clear:

The government should infringe on the First Amendment rights of its citizens by banning dragshow readings at libraries, supposedly to protect the children.
Yet the leading cause of death among children is firearms, and we’ve had more school shootings in the past X years than most first world counties have had in their entire existence. But oh boy, if the government infringes on that Second Amendment right…

Just want to see what level of hypocrisy we’re settling in at.
Great look.

Defending the ideology of the shooter while subtly blaming gun owners.

On another forum- I predicted exactly this
 

Negan4Coach

Fantastic and Stochastic
Aug 31, 2017
6,030
15,299
Raleigh, NC
Do you have that recording?

Watching it right now. It had been a few years. Even a "slavery was worse than the holocaust". Forgot about that part.

Yeah I’m going to go ahead and call BS on pretty much all of this.

Is the “anti-whiteness” CRT boogeyman in the room with you right now?

Sounds like you need to do a little self reflection and try and understand why your kids potentially learning about Americas racist history bothers you so much. Not to mention your threats of violence against public educators for teaching said history.
Yep. Sure is an interesting tactic- tell your adversary what you are doing isn't happening. Let me know how that works out for you as history continues down this path...


“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

(not sure where you are getting "threats of violence against educators" unless you are being deliberately obtuse in reading my post)

And yet I know someone who went on a rant and tear with a principle because his daughter's 5th grade teacher dared to tell the class that the European settlers carried with them diseases that Native Americans had no resistance to. He said he was not taught that when he was young and blah, blah. I asked why since it was factual and reality and of course to him and others like him, facts do not matter.

Works both ways.

So, unfortunately that is going to be the by-product of the backlash against this stuff. IDK about you- but I learned about slavery, and what happened with the American Indians, and Reconstruction and Jim Crow in high school. Hell, growing up in New York they taught us the South was basically a separate country and we weren't safe down there. The first time I crossed the Mason-Dixon it sure felt that way.

But what is going to happen is now kids actually won't be learning about this stuff. Because you can't legislate away a teacher sucking the oxygen out of the room by making every lesson social justice-centric in an attempt to over-compensate for things they see in the news. What are you going to do- be like "Well only 30% of the history class can be about things our country did that were terrible", it's never going to work. So all of it will be banned. And education will suffer.

It really is too bad. I wish I didn't know what happens when a society suddenly has their attention fixated like a laser on their ethnic and religious differences and the atrocities and abuses of the past. But I do- and I was there- Iraq in 2006 is what eventually happens. Hope y'all ready for that.
 

Navin R Slavin

Fifth line center
Jan 1, 2011
16,369
64,800
Durrm NC
But I do- and I was there- Iraq in 2006 is what eventually happens. Hope y'all ready for that.
Oh yeah? Which country is going to pretend we have weapons of mass destruction, invade us with a massively superior military, remove our government, completely upend all civil society, arrest everyone competent from the ruling party that might be able to help with a transition, and then pay for the creation of religious based militias?

Come on, now. You've got better arguments than that.
 
Jul 18, 2010
26,720
57,545
Atlanta, GA
Oh yeah? Which country is going to pretend we have weapons of mass destruction, invade us with a massively superior military, remove our government, arrest everyone competent from the ruling party that might be able to help with a transition, and then pay for the creation of religious based militias?

Come on, now. You've got better arguments than that.

Canada
 
Jul 18, 2010
26,720
57,545
Atlanta, GA
TLDR: I'm an old guy, was serendipitously lucky that I had good teachers, and benefitted from a simpler curriculum focused more on "thinking" as opposed to "what to think".

I put these two Hank quotes together because I believe it get's to the heart of the matter. Politics, bias, in vogue social theories, common core, etc. all have done one thing to public education....it has made it more complex, not in the way that the world keeps getting more complex (I remain amazed at how complex the curriculum for my kids was). I'm not advocating for getting back to the basics of 'readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmatic' only. But my sense is that what Hank pointed to is that support for curiosity, development of critical thinking skills, inculcating problem solving into the curriculum, etc. is something that has been at best minimized and at worst lost. Our society has added so much around the edges of each subject, that the necessary kernels of those subjects can become obfuscated.

I'm not talking about including the true history of race in the teaching of history; that should be a given and be part of the general understanding of the American experiment. Context is extremely important to understanding how we got from where we were to where we are today.

I'm one of the older guys here on HF26 and when I went to elementary school in Virginia, I believe the schools had only been desegregated a couple of years before I got there. In my first Virginia history course that I can remember (in VA you took VA history something like 4 or 5 times over your 12 years of school because, Virginia), one of the earliest lessons was about 1619 and it was called "The Red Letter Year" because that's when tobacco was exported back to Europe, women came to Jamestown, and the first slaves arrived. Our teacher (and subsequent teachers of VA history that I had) took the time to discuss slavery's impact going forward (heinous practice, but one that drove significant segments of the agricultural economy), tobacco's impact on the economy yet with serious negative consequences, and how women, well they were the one really good thing that happened that year. It wasn't until I was in high school that we learned about the Tulsa massacre and such things. But it wasn't whitewashed. The plight of black folks wasn't minimized and was pretty unvarnished. And while we likely didn't learn as much about African American heroes as we could or should have, during our junior year visit to Washington DC, we learned that the enslaved built a great deal of our nation's capital, for example. Yet they didn't have the same freedoms and benefits that America provided others.

Throughout all of that we learned the other basics of history. We had civics and American government classes. We had the usual science triumvirate of biology, chemistry, and physics. We had English literature sprinkled with a good bit of world literature. Now I'm not pining for the good old days and I know that I was very fortunate in that I had teachers who cared and who were open minded for the most part. Throughout all of that we were guided to think critically about all things, what was right and what was wrong, what was accepted at a point in time that is no longer acceptable, and how to construct and deconstruct logical arguments.

And yes, I now see the value to the much maligned and hated "word problems" in my various math classes as they were pure, simple applications of the principles we were attempting to learn. We had mechanical drawing courses (something like basic drafting) which was one of the simplest applications of geometry that I had experienced as a youth. When my kids were at Broughton in Raleigh, they were one of the last cohorts to have the option of taking shop classes. That money was ear-marked for the newer technology curriculum (perhaps rightly so).

I apologize for the long diatribe, but my point is, the curriculum was simpler and we were fortunate to be well guided, but the emphasis provided the basis of "learning how to learn", not learning what to think. That appears to be the main complaint of some of the parents that I know. They just want their kids to be given the tools to discern right from wrong, true from false. They fear that has been replaced by more of the "what" and less to none of the "how and why".

Florida just passed one of the most comprehensive "the funding goes with the child" laws in the country. When people have argued against vouchers and charter schools they often bring up the stats about how the test scores aren't always significantly better at those alternatives. Yet, they never complete the research enough to find out that the schools that now compete against those others have improved test scores as well. Competition in essence drove improvements across the entire system.

Love this post and I think it plays nicely with my main opinion/take which is just that parents are and always have been the primary educators of their children, and if you play an active part in forming your childrens’ intellects and consciences, the impacts of the outside world, including the schools you send them to for 7 hours a day for 13 years, will be more “inputs” and less “indoctrination.” Doesn’t mean getting our school systems right isn’t critical (or that where you send your kids to school isn’t important). But it was never supposed to be a full on substitute for parenting.
 
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MrazeksVengeance

VENGEANCE
Feb 27, 2018
7,549
28,408
When it comes to public education one political party is introducing wide spread legislation to defund public schools. Crippling mostly inner city and rural schools. And funnel that money into the pockets of their donors and in some cases families via charter schools, where they don’t have to adhere to state guidelines for educators or curriculums.

The other party is trying to inject more money into the public system to help give teachers more resources to better educate kids.

So yeah one political party is to blame for a lot of this. Obviously.

I challenge anyone to go spend a week in a title one public school and then lobby to take funding and resources away from those educators. Or sit through a counseling session with your 4th grade student Jimmy Bob and grandmaw cause he couldn’t figure out how to use the Narcan and watched mommy die on the couch.
Dude I would have look up how to dose Naloxon (the thing in Narcan - opium antidote.)
 

Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,331
102,076
TLDR: I'm an old guy, was serendipitously lucky that I had good teachers, and benefitted from a simpler curriculum focused more on "thinking" as opposed to "what to think".

I put these two Hank quotes together because I believe it get's to the heart of the matter. Politics, bias, in vogue social theories, common core, etc. all have done one thing to public education....it has made it more complex, not in the way that the world keeps getting more complex (I remain amazed at how complex the curriculum for my kids was). I'm not advocating for getting back to the basics of 'readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmatic' only. But my sense is that what Hank pointed to is that support for curiosity, development of critical thinking skills, inculcating problem solving into the curriculum, etc. is something that has been at best minimized and at worst lost. Our society has added so much around the edges of each subject, that the necessary kernels of those subjects can become obfuscated.

I'm not talking about including the true history of race in the teaching of history; that should be a given and be part of the general understanding of the American experiment. Context is extremely important to understanding how we got from where we were to where we are today.

I'm one of the older guys here on HF26 and when I went to elementary school in Virginia, I believe the schools had only been desegregated a couple of years before I got there. In my first Virginia history course that I can remember (in VA you took VA history something like 4 or 5 times over your 12 years of school because, Virginia), one of the earliest lessons was about 1619 and it was called "The Red Letter Year" because that's when tobacco was exported back to Europe, women came to Jamestown, and the first slaves arrived. Our teacher (and subsequent teachers of VA history that I had) took the time to discuss slavery's impact going forward (heinous practice, but one that drove significant segments of the agricultural economy), tobacco's impact on the economy yet with serious negative consequences, and how women, well they were the one really good thing that happened that year. It wasn't until I was in high school that we learned about the Tulsa massacre and such things. But it wasn't whitewashed. The plight of black folks wasn't minimized and was pretty unvarnished. And while we likely didn't learn as much about African American heroes as we could or should have, during our junior year visit to Washington DC, we learned that the enslaved built a great deal of our nation's capital, for example. Yet they didn't have the same freedoms and benefits that America provided others.

Throughout all of that we learned the other basics of history. We had civics and American government classes. We had the usual science triumvirate of biology, chemistry, and physics. We had English literature sprinkled with a good bit of world literature. Now I'm not pining for the good old days and I know that I was very fortunate in that I had teachers who cared and who were open minded for the most part. Throughout all of that we were guided to think critically about all things, what was right and what was wrong, what was accepted at a point in time that is no longer acceptable, and how to construct and deconstruct logical arguments.

And yes, I now see the value to the much maligned and hated "word problems" in my various math classes as they were pure, simple applications of the principles we were attempting to learn. We had mechanical drawing courses (something like basic drafting) which was one of the simplest applications of geometry that I had experienced as a youth. When my kids were at Broughton in Raleigh, they were one of the last cohorts to have the option of taking shop classes. That money was ear-marked for the newer technology curriculum (perhaps rightly so).

I apologize for the long diatribe, but my point is, the curriculum was simpler and we were fortunate to be well guided, but the emphasis provided the basis of "learning how to learn", not learning what to think. That appears to be the main complaint of some of the parents that I know. They just want their kids to be given the tools to discern right from wrong, true from false. They fear that has been replaced by more of the "what" and less to none of the "how and why".

Florida just passed one of the most comprehensive "the funding goes with the child" laws in the country. When people have argued against vouchers and charter schools they often bring up the stats about how the test scores aren't always significantly better at those alternatives. Yet, they never complete the research enough to find out that the schools that now compete against those others have improved test scores as well. Competition in essence drove improvements across the entire system.
Did you really TLDR to Hank's post and then go on and make your own post about 3 times as long?
 

Lempo

Recovering Future Considerations Truther
Feb 23, 2014
27,714
86,665
Watching it right now. It had been a few years. Even a "slavery was worse than the holocaust". Forgot about that part.
Just out of curiosity... was it a he, a she, white, black or what?
 

LakeLivin

Armchair Quarterback
Mar 11, 2016
5,126
15,126
North Carolina
I've subbed regularly at elementary schools in Person County for 7 years. Outside of 1 case I haven't seen anything that comes close to attempted indoctrination, and that one case was from a far right perspective. A full time college intern was teaching the class that day because the regular teacher was out sick; I was in the class but basically just observing. In covering the Civil War she listed some of the strengths and weaknesses of both sides and then asked the class "who should have won the war?" Ruh? we know who actually did win the war, but she turned it into a "who's your favorite team" type question.

One of the strengths she listed for the South was that it was more rural so more of it's soldiers had and were familiar with guns. Completely ignorant of the fact that outside of the major cities, there is actually more rural area in the North than the South (both then and now, surprisingly). So while perhaps a higher proportion of the South's forces were familiar with guns, undoubtedly a greater number of Northern troops were familiar with firearms because of their significantly overall higher number of troops. She then went off on a tangent about how the U.S. has never been invaded because of how many households have guns. And asked the class if they wouldn't all feel safer with a gun in the house. As a sub I didn't say anything in the class but did report the incident to the principle to follow up on as appropriate.

I'm aware that my experience is in a pretty conservative county. And I recognize that others may have experienced something diametrically different than me. [To this day I still don't understand the logic of "this is what I experienced so that's the way it must universally be"]
 
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Lempo

Recovering Future Considerations Truther
Feb 23, 2014
27,714
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The government should infringe on the First Amendment rights of its citizens by banning dragshow readings at libraries, supposedly to protect the children.
I'm not sure if this is a 1st Amendment issue. The focus seems not to be on what is said.
 
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Boom Boom Apathy

I am the Professor. Deal with it!
Sep 6, 2006
49,331
102,076
Love this post and I think it plays nicely with my main opinion/take which is just that parents are and always have been the primary educators of their children, and if you play an active part in forming your childrens’ intellects and consciences, the impacts of the outside world, including the schools you send them to for 7 hours a day for 13 years, will be more “inputs” and less “indoctrination.” Doesn’t mean getting our school systems right isn’t critical (or that where you send your kids to school isn’t important). But it was never supposed to be a full on substitute for parenting.

I didn't read Notopie's post (TLDR), but I almost said that in bold earlier. They were "inputs" as you said.
 

NotOpie

"Puck don't lie"
Sponsor
Jun 12, 2006
9,686
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North Carolina
Yet the leading cause of death among children is firearms, and we’ve had more school shootings in the past X years than most first world counties have had in their entire existence.
It is horrible that gun-related deaths surpassed auto accidents as the leading cause of death for children 1-18 (I believe this first happened in 2020; it does not included congenital conditions, etc.). However, it should be noted that about 30 percent of those 3,597 deaths were suicides (1,078). It should also be noted that black children (and to a lesser extent, Hispanic children) suffer a disproportionate amount, about 1,500 in either 2020 or 2021 (data was unclear). Lastly, the vast majority of both homicides and suicides are handgun deaths.
The other party is trying to inject more money into the public system to help give teachers more resources to better educate kids.
According to the Census Bureau, in 2019 (latest real numbers that I could find), the nation spent $752.3 billion on it's 48 million public school students. That comes to about $15,673 per student. Now here's the kicker, according to the US Dept. of Education, from 2000 - 2019 the number of district administrators has grown 87.6% while the number of teachers has grown by 8.7%. Over the same time period, the number of students has grown by 7.6%. The vast majority of education spending comes from the states and other non-federal sources (about 92%). The federal government provides about 8% of the total funding. Lastly, spending on public education has increased annually over the course of the last decade (according to the National Center on Education Statistics).

What this indicates is that while teacher salaries and resources have consistently increased over the last 10 years or so, it pales in comparison to the rise administrative costs.
 
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Blueline Bomber

AI Generated Minnesota Wild
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I'm not sure if this is a 1st Amendment issue. The focus seems not to be on what is said.

It is a First Amendment issue. Not necessarily the freedom of speech aspect (though there's certainly an argument that could be made there), but more of a freedom of assembly aspect.

They have a right to "come together and collectively express, promote, pursue, and defend their collective or shared ideas."

And there's nothing inherently more dangerous if a drag queen reads to children than any other random adult. About the only thing that makes it more dangerous is that a "Proud Boy type" may bring a firearm into the library for that reading, while they'd likely ignore it altogether if it were any other random adult.
 
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